[NFP] Ethiopia Update Discussion Thread

[Kmart_Elvis]

Well, the video suggested that the faith would be used toward a culture victory.

@Republic of San Montuoso pointed out a screenshot two pages ago showing that Ethiopia can buy an Archaeological Museum with faith but not the art museum. So that's not Jesuit Education. Thus it's a good chance that they will be able to buy Archaeological museums and archaeologists with faith.

 

[Kwami]

@Republic of San Montuoso pointed out a screenshot two pages ago showing that Ethiopia can buy an Archaeological Museum with faith but not the art museum. So that's not Jesuit Education. Thus it's a good chance that they will be able to buy Archaeological museums and archaeologists with faith.

Sure. So, using faith to win a culture victory. That's what I said. And what the video said.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I play on Deity and Emperor, for your information.
Deity when I want a decent enough challenge, Emperor when I want to relax. If I want a real challenge, I play a fair one like Dota or some fighting games; not one where the AI just gets a bunch of bonuses. Not particularly fun when the only competition comes from the fact the AI gets overbuffed, and they still make stupid decisions.

Apparently their decisions are not stupid enough for you to win outside a "meta" though.

The funny thing is the one guy who is "ABUNDANTLY clear doesnt know what he is talking about" is the one who is supported by the majority when the guy who is so smart but just not smart enough to defeat bots get virtually no support though. Just look at likes on every comment I made vs everyone you made. But of course, a typical you will think it is because you are the one eyed man who lives in a blind kingdom, don't you? And I thought we settled on adding superfluous words doesnt make your argument any stronger, didn't we?

And I'm so sorry I don't have time to spend watching a non-action game like Civ on twitch and youtube. When I have time, I play deity to relax.

The fact that you're out here arguing against the very concept of a metagame tells me that you really have no idea what you're talking about. So I'd simply like to leave it at that. I could be wrong about the impact this change is going to have, and I've been very clear in that sentiment in every post I've made here. It's a first impression, not a clear science. But you're just rambling on about nothing in particular and not really arguing against any point here, so time to move on.

"OMG someone argued against what I just invented, they must not know what they are talking about" Can't stress how many times I said this district reduces the amount of RNG involved in games, but I guess you can't read very well. For someone who is, for some reason, so proud of the fact that they are neither good, skillful or flexible enough to play more than one style against admittedly stupid bots, you're the special one of a kind. God forbids someone argues against your idea cuz all of them ABUNDANTLY clearly don't know what they are talking about

Moderator Action: Enough trolling. Please make your arguments without making personal attacks. leif

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Sure. So, using faith to win a culture victory. That's what I said. And what the video said.

I was just piggy backing off what you said and adding specifics for any one reading the thread.

 

[Futumch]

As said, they can be turned off. But on top off that, I'm guessing they'd be easy to MOD to replace the fantasy names with less obviously fantastical ones for those inclined.

Given that a lot of the names are just marked in XML files, it ought to be straightforward to edit them to suit your own tastes. Just remember to backup anything before you start mucking about with game files.
I'd be looking in the DLC\Ethiopia\Text\ folder somewhere for the relevant files. The package hasn't dropped yet so I can't give more specific details though.

 

[Baigan]

The fantasy background for the secret societies doesn't bother me. The historicity of Civ is a nice selling point but it's not the principal reason I enjoy playing this game. I can respect the opinion of anyone who doesn't want to play with this game mode but, personally, the arguments that this represents development time which could have been better allocated toward [...] fall flat.

• Game development isn't a zero-sum situation. Development time invested in this game mode does not necessarily come at the cost of neglecting other features. And even if it did, there's certainly no promise that the dev time would have instead been invested in the things which you think are more important/valuable (the general you, I'm not speaking to anyone in particular). Perhaps we would have instead gotten a disease mode where the vector of transmission is werewolf attacks.
  
• The tools they used and refined to create this game mode could be useful for other development ventures, especially for modders.
• We don't know the results of the market research they've done to justify this development effort. The people who post here are a small fraction of the population of Civ players and don't necessarily represent the population of all Civ players or all players who would be interested in playing 4X games. Testing the water with sci-fi/fantasy game elements especially makes sense if Firaxis is looking at its competition and wondering how it can distinguish itself and draw in new/perspective players.
  
• In a sense, this isn't our game. It's the devs' game. The tone and style of this game mode seems very much in line with what I would expect from a group of people who enjoy playing and are inspired by board games. If the creation of this optional game mode keeps game development fresh for them and gives them inspiration and energy for future development work, by all means, I encourage it.

"Vampires? In my Civ? It may be more likely than you think."

 

[GenyaArikado]

Yeah. After all one of the biggest mods ever made in Civ is... A fantasy mod. Ultimately SSs are toggleable and someone will probably make a mod for them making them "historical" so w.e.

For historical mods i think i'd replace ley lines with gold mines tbh

 

[PhoenicianGold]

We don't know the results of the market research they've done to justify this development effort. The people who post here are a small fraction of the population of Civ players and don't necessarily represent the population of all Civ players or all players who would be interested in playing 4X games. Testing the water with sci-fi/fantasy game elements especially makes sense if Firaxis is looking at its competition and wondering how it can distinguish itself and draw in new/perspective players.

In some respects there's no winning. The thing everyone is complaining about is vampires. Yet so many in this same community were requesting was Vlad Tepes because vampires. The devs tried to satisfy the Vlad Tepes/vampire requests while still keeping the game largely historical and within their own creative vision. And now everyone is complaining despite getting what they wanted.

It's pathetic, imo. Stop making stupid requests like Vlad Tepes and then get butthurt when the developers pay attention to you and try to make your dumb, indulgent idea fun. (not you specifically Baigan, you're lovely)

This is why, for the most part, I think fans are generally a terrible source for game design. Memes might be attractive, but they are also shallow and just because an idea has caught on doesn't mean anyone propagating it has actually bothered to think it through. If anything, the ideas which spread most easily are often the shallowest.

In a sense, this isn't our game. It's the devs' game. The tone and style of this game mode seems very much in line with what I would expect from a group of people who enjoy playing and are inspired by board games. If the creation of this optional game mode keeps game development fresh for them and gives them inspiration and energy for future development work, by all means, I encourage it.

I've been saying this for a while now. Although the devs have incentive to listen to popular opinion, ultimately if they have a different creative vision in mind they can make whatever they want. And so far they have. This time around they don't want your cheap Hannibal and Napoleon fantasies. They don't want a game full of hypermasculine general-kings. They don't want a rote list of empires from your history textbook. They have been shoving this down everyone's throats for years and everyone gets so disappointed with each release, not bothering to think that maybe this is just a different beast.

And as long as there is a fair degree of creativity and coherency to what the devs put out, if the work itself is attractive and has something intriguing to say, I don't really care if it isn't exactly what I wished for. I didn't want Scotland or Georgia; but taken alongside the rest of R&F, they facilitate a message the developers wanted to put out. And I vastly prefer a game that wants to say something over something that feels beholden to fan requests; in fact that's the reason I even bought VI in the first place.

 

[Jewelrunna]

Apparently their decisions are not stupid enough for you to win outside a "meta" though.

The funny thing is the one guy who is "ABUNDANTLY clear doesnt know what he is talking about" is the one who is supported by the majority when the guy who is so smart but just not smart enough to defeat bots get virtually no support though. Just look at likes on every comment I made vs everyone you made. But of course, a typical you will think it is because you are the one eyed man who lives in a blind kingdom, don't you? And I thought we settled on adding superfluous words doesnt make your argument any stronger, didn't we?

And I'm so sorry I don't have time to spend watching a non-action game like Civ on twitch and youtube. When I have time, I play deity to relax.


"OMG someone argued against what I just invented, they must not know what they are talking about" Can't stress how many times I said this district reduces the amount of RNG involved in games, but I guess you can't read very well. For someone who is, for some reason, so proud of the fact that they are neither good, skillful or flexible enough to play more than one style against admittedly stupid bots, you're the special one of a kind. God forbids someone argues against your idea cuz all of them ABUNDANTLY clearly don't know what they are talking about

Moderator Action: Enough trolling. Please make your arguments without making personal attacks. leif

Last time I'm going to reply here, because we're really talking in circles and you still haven't really argued against any point I've made. This is getting pretty toxic anyways and I don't wanna clog up the thread with this petty stuff.

I don't expect people to agree with me on early predictions on how changes in the game are going to shake out, because they're just predictions. I could very easily be wrong here, and I'm pretty sure I've made that stance very clear in every post I've made on the subject. Anyone can feel free to disagree, and I welcome good faith discussion on it, but for some reason my first impressions really seem to get under your skin. I don't get why. It's not that serious, man.

This district might not even reduce RNG from finding City-States that much, because for all we know, the tier one envoy bonuses could still be tied to the palace. Judging by the fact that there are two buildings in the diplomatic quarter, we could make an educated guess that they only moved the tier two and three envoy bonuses to the district.

You truly don't understand what a metagame is, do you? Do you seriously think that's something I just pulled out the aether? Really, dude?

Honestly, I'm just amazed that you really don't seem to understand basic concepts of how to play the early game. You'll have to make adjustments, of course. Nonetheless, those districts I mentioned are still high priority in 90% of Civ VI games you're going to play, and inserting a new district into the game that both will radically change that build order and have major effects in how you're going to interact with City-States. Is that really so difficult to understand?

Anyone's welcome to disagree with me. That's the point of a discussion board. But when someone comes into the thread laughing at the idea of a metagame and accuses me of "inventing" the concept myself, I just have to laugh. That's what tells me you don't really know what you're talking about. Because you haven't made many concrete points and you haven't responded to anything I've said beyond slinging insults. In any cases, feel free to respond but I'm not going to bother because this is a waste of time. Anyways, I'll be having fun playing the pack when it drops regardless, and I certainly hope you do as well.

 

[darkace77450]

Secret Societies (specifically, the new governors in Secret Societies) has forced me to admit that the little hope I was clinging to for a new governor or two is folly.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Secret Societies (specifically, the new governors in Secret Societies) has forced me to admit that the little hope I was clinging to for a new governor or two is folly.

For me, governors, while a good idea, where very poorly bad designed. Good mechanics, but design? Terrible. Everybody talked about it: before we only had our eternal immortal leaders that asked some level of abstraction some people don't like; now we had seven immortals governors that aren't only eternal but also appears to have the power to be at twelve differences places at the same time.

But this design excepted, I don't think we need more governers. The seven we have already cover mostly what's important and seems to be linked to the seven Social Policies trees of Civ V:

• Liang - city planning and districts - Tradition
• Magnus - production and expansion - Liberty
• Victor - defense and warfare - Honnor
• Moksha- religion and faith - Piety
• Amani - diplomaty, loyalty and city-States - Patronage
• Reyna - trade, economy, gold and features - Commerce
• Pingala - science, culture and tourism - Rationalism

Maybe two new governors could be interesting only to fit the two new SPT in BNW: Aesthetics and Exploration. But I doubt it because Exploration is already covered by Pingala and Reyna and Aesthetics is completely covered by Pingala.

Also, there was something I really like in the first version of R&F was that the governors, while kind of specialized, still had some sort of generalization. Reyna was the Financiary, but she also had bonuses to artifacts and museums; Pingala was the nerd of the group but he could also speed up nukes... All made sense but you really had to manage your governors.

Now it's too simple. "I have a high science/culture city" => Pingala. "I want production and food" => Magnus. "It's a Holy City" => Moksha. The game is already telling you which governor to take for each city. There is not enough diversity I think.

So having more governors would only make them too specialized and just make us lost in this screen (even if I'm curious which kind of governors you'd want).

 

[acluewithout]

snip

We don’t really need more early generic Governors. But I think there is a strong case for a handful of more Civ’s to have unique Governors (eg for Vietnam), and for additional Governors that unlock later in the game.

Currently, Governors lack of variety generally, and all seven base Governors are unlocked at turn 1, with the result that they are super repetitive and sort of become irrelevant by the end of the game.

More couple more Governors tied to Civs or and a few more unlocked late would add more variety, obviously. But Governors unlocking later would specifically would keep Governors relevant into the late game and also make the late game a bit more interesting overall, if only because it gave you something to look forward to unlocking, but also because you could have Governors more specifically tailored to end game mechanics. You’d also have more reason to save up Governor Titles, so there’d be more variation between spending them as soon as you get them or holding off for bigger rewards.

I like that all Governors do have a focus but are also a bit mixed purpose too, eg Victor is the “Honour” Governor, but Victor is also useful for war because of Black-Marketeer. I think any “late game” Governors should have the same design.

What could you do with late game Governors? Oh, so much.

First, I’d think about Governors that could only be placed in foreign continents, or your home continent, or only in Cities with certain requirements (Harbours, or Encampments, Holy Cities or Capital Cities), or that could be placed in other Civ’s Cities (like Ibrahim, although unlike him only unlocking late game) or placed in the World Congress.

Second, I’d think about Governors that worked more with Diplo Favour, or leveraged new mechanics like Corporations or Ideological Pressure, or that are required to produce certain High Tech Units or Projects, or even perhaps allowed new Casus Belli

Third, I’d think about Governors that actually have disadvantages as a trade off for powerful abilities. So, maybe Governors that boost production and gold, but increase pollution; Governors that suppress spies and stop loyalty flipping, but cause greater unhappiness.

Anyway. I’ve said all this before. We’re not getting more Governors. We’re getting Cultists and Vampires.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

No but I still have to pay for it...right?

No you don't. You can buy each piece of the NFP individually, and not py for this one.
Of course, if you want to play with Ethiopia or the Diplomatic Quarter, you'd have to pay for the all Ethiopia Pack, meaning you'll pay for SS too. Which is a shame, of course: I mean, why should I pay for all the Rise&Fall expansion if I don't want the Zulus, Georgia or Mongols in my games? I mean, I feel betrayed to have to pay for the full expansion while I want to use only 60% of it. Outrageous. Preposterous. Ridiculous. Right ? (/s)

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Moderator Action: Quote deleted as requested by member. leif

I don't get you. yeah it is based on mini fantasy but it has some small historical elements. It isn't like cults were never a thing in history. And in history there were never alchemists. As for vampires... I don't mind it too much. Vempires were part of the historical culture as well.

Civ teams are trying a new things and expand civ in a brand new direction and here you are trying to limit it and asking mods to do the jobs for civ team for free. I am sorry WOT? So mini fantasy content is not ok if you have to pay but it is OK if it is free? So if civ team made secret society for free you wouldn't be complaining?

Also I kinda see secret society as a Mythological mod rather than a complete fantasy mode. And mythology are often linked together with history... so this is small bit of what if some mythology were real.

I happen to LOVE Cthulhu, vampires etc - but not in Civ.

Like I said instead of looking at secret society as fantastical mode why not look at it as a mythological mod? kinda similar to the age of mythology games.

 

[Solver]

With the exception of vampire castle teleports, nothing in the SS mode is too far from reality.

Cthulhu isn't real, but cults that worshiped esoteric mythical beings are. The Voidsingers society seems to basically be a fanatical cult worshiping some dark gods - enough precedent for that in history. The Hermetic Order is some kind of alchemist society, not unlike the many alchemists, kabbalists or hermeticists that existed in reality. And some kind of blood-sucking demons were found in many mythologies, to such an extent that there were "real" vampires, as in people who believed that they were vampires, or people that were hunted because others believed they were vampires. In a society that believes in vampires, it's not a big stretch to imagine them using vampires to intimidate enemies.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

. And some kind of blood-sucking demons were found in many mythologies, to such an extent that there were "real" vampires, as in people who believed that they were vampires, or people that were hunted because others believed they were vampires. In a society that believes in vampires, it's not a big stretch to imagine them using vampires to intimidate enemies.

not to mention the so called "vampires" don't have features traditionally associated with vampires- being weak under sun, weak to garlic and holy water, turning into bat etc.
Really this mod is more of small dose of mythological aspect rather than fantasy.

 

[MrRadar]

To tell the truth, vampires and the teleportation between their castles in an optional mode are much more tolerable than the teleportation of units which is currently so widespread in the normal mode of this game and which, I daresay, is much more unrealistic than vampires. Open borders/alliance eneded? Your units that were travelling through that teritorry on potentially vital mission now are leagues away and might be even completely stranded for a long time or become sitting ducks. You liberated a city state? Thank you so much, but also off with your filthy liberating troops this instant! By means of trivial teleportation of course. Yeah, tunnels as well. Let's not forget great people, while were at it. When we have very reliable service teleporters all over the place already, who would notice another slight variety of them in the form of vampire castles?

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Moderator Action: Quote deleted as requested by member. leif

I would totally have bought that. Because it's awesome and try something new rather than iterate again and again the same things. Civ is trying new idea, and for now, I find them very enjoyable.

Moreover, I really don't see the difference between what you call "realistic" and "historical" secret societies, except the names. I'm sorry, but the Knights Templars never were secrets, everybody knew about them, and all the "secret" stuff is stuff of legends, of fantasy, written by some people hating them. Talking about the "dark" and "secret" influence of the Knight Templars is on the same level of inaccuracy and fantasy as vampires, hermetic societies and old god cultists. Same for the Illuminati, the Free-Masons, the Assassins... Everything interesting about those societies is unknown, secret and without any tangible proof. So if you wanted "historical" secret societies, you would just had a bunch of banker knights fighting for you, or free-thinkers gathering around stone, or independent assassins, each having the same influence they had, meaning from barely noticeable and one-to-one interaction to just financiary actions giving you more gold... Wow, it's fun! It's amazing! I can't wait to have my cannabis-smoker spies and my financiary monks in my game!

Be honest: what you call historical secret societies are just another level of fantasy and ahistoricity... So the best move for this thing was to go full fantasy to had again more flavor and interesting things rather than just a holy order of bankers with swords.

So, yes, I understand that this is actually the right place to complain, but I just feel that your complains are incoherent and superficial.

(Also, talking about "fantasy", we have a game in which we can find the Holy Grail, the Philosopher's Stone, the Book of Thoth, the Grass-Cutting Sword, all fantastical artifacts, and yet I heard nobody complaining about that...)

 

[Kupe Navigator]

(Also, talking about "fantasy", we have a game in which we can find the Holy Grail, the Philosopher's Stone, the Book of Thoth, the Grass-Cutting Sword, all fantastical artifacts, and yet I heard nobody complaining about that...)

Not to mention you evangelize by throwing thunder and lighting at opposite religion.

 

[DeutschDachs]

In some respects there's no winning. The thing everyone is complaining about is vampires. Yet so many in this same community were requesting was Vlad Tepes because vampires. The devs tried to satisfy the Vlad Tepes/vampire requests while still keeping the game largely historical and within their own creative vision. And now everyone is complaining despite getting what they wanted.

It's pathetic, imo. Stop making stupid requests like Vlad Tepes and then get butthurt when the developers pay attention to you and try to make your dumb, indulgent idea fun. (not you specifically Baigan, you're lovely)

This is why, for the most part, I think fans are generally a terrible source for game design. Memes might be attractive, but they are also shallow and just because an idea has caught on doesn't mean anyone propagating it has actually bothered to think it through. If anything, the ideas which spread most easily are often the shallowest.



I've been saying this for a while now. Although the devs have incentive to listen to popular opinion, ultimately if they have a different creative vision in mind they can make whatever they want. And so far they have. This time around they don't want your cheap Hannibal and Napoleon fantasies. They don't want a game full of hypermasculine general-kings. They don't want a rote list of empires from your history textbook. They have been shoving this down everyone's throats for years and everyone gets so disappointed with each release, not bothering to think that maybe this is just a different beast.

And as long as there is a fair degree of creativity and coherency to what the devs put out, if the work itself is attractive and has something intriguing to say, I don't really care if it isn't exactly what I wished for. I didn't want Scotland or Georgia; but taken alongside the rest of R&F, they facilitate a message the developers wanted to put out. And I vastly prefer a game that wants to say something over something that feels beholden to fan requests; in fact that's the reason I even bought VI in the first place.

Or maybe people want Vlad Tepes because he was an interesting historical figure and a capable leader of an area not yet represented in the series. One of the greatest leaders? Nah. Better than some already in the series? Surely. Not quite sure what makes it a "stupid" request on its own. I'm fairly certain Vlad is more well known for his work as an impaler than a vampire besides. People from Romanians have to be getting pretty tired of the vampire references themselves and it would be a pretty shallow view of their culture to include fictional vampires as any sort of representation for them.