Ethiopia

[Dawnpromise]

Ethiopia is basically the 'jack of stats' civ IMO. They don't exactly excel in any one area but they tend to perform above average in all areas early game and tend to snowball from there. Only time I haven't seen the AI do well with Ethiopia is when by some fluke they failed to found a religion.

May not be a 'fun' civ to play when all is said but if I was going to recommend a civ to a new player in VP they'd be my top suggestion.

 

[Voker57]

Exactly.

Calling for a nerf or complete rework of an UA without suggesting anything how it could be done wont bring you far here.

How many free techs is Ethopia getting? 1 for pantheon, 1 for founding, 1 for enhancing, 1 for reformation and 1 for ideology? In total 5 free techs? Should it be less, like every OTHER (oh sorry, every second) belief adoption?

Or is the problem with the very strong stele, which gives Ethopia an early and strong religion?

Would be helpfull to know what is exactly overpowered...

You forgot the finisher tech. Also, most of these tech come pretty early, and that's where it matters most.

 

[Great Ape]

I really enjoy Ethiopia in its current state because of the flexibility and early game bonuses. I absolutely hate picking a civ that has a UA/UB that requires something specific and then lacking that thing at the start of my game (ie, Iroquois without forest/jungle). And while there certainly are some uniques that scale better into the late game (Polands', for example), I find that snowballing out of the early-mid game does more for me than hitting a power spike in late from a middling position.

I do get that, in a sense, Ethiopia is very generic. There's no special pzazz or super unique flavor that you can't get from any other civ here. But I think that Ethiopia is unique in that you'll virtually always be able to come out of your early game with a strong position and fast religion, and quickly reach whatever tech you need to take advantage of your local resources/neighbors. And while it is brain-dead easy to benefit from the UB and fairly simple to use the UA, I feel that optimizing tech timings and choices in order to take advantage of the potential power spikes granted by the free techs does require a good deal of thought and planning. To be fair, if you just "do stuff" you'll probably get like 75%+ of the maximum benefit anyway- hence being a fantastic choice for newer players.

Personally, I love being able to go into a game not yet knowing how I will play it. On Emperor difficulty, progress, authority, and tradition have all worked for me, and I'll take any depending on my start. I can certainly be aggressive early (and often enjoy doing so), but unlike civs who gain access to their UU very early in the game, I don't feel cheated out of my special power spike if I feel that my start calls for passivity/peace until later on. Early expansion feels great (who wouldn't want to build as many Steles as fast as possible???), but consolidating and going a little bit taller/thicker can also work very well due to the ability to skip shrine and start producing other buildings or units more quickly. One of my favorite aspects of this is the ability to combine a tech rush with the fast pantheon; gaining access to quarries or plantations or fishing boats super early feels especially awesome when the associated pantheon comes with it.

Maybe the fun will wear off for me with more experience, but I dunno. I have had success with other civs, but I always consider old Haile for my next game whenever I finish a run.

 

[Voker57]

My change proposal: limit free techs to policy finishers and ideology. They will still be religion-focused, but not so snowbally.

 

[ElliotS]

My change proposal: limit free techs to policy finishers and ideology. They will still be religion-focused, but not so snowbally.

I'm strongly against any change. Ethiopia is well balanced and I'm not even remotely convinced your concerns are valid.

 

[Voker57]

I'm strongly against any change. Ethiopia is well balanced and I'm not even remotely convinced your concerns are valid.

How many games with Ethiopia as an opponent have you played lately?

 

[Heavy Q]

Ethiopia AI is more likely to snowball, but so are any civilizations with powerful early game bonuses. For every runaway ethiopia I've seen 3 runaway Celts, or Shoshone.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Ethiopia is in a good place I think. They have a unique well defined niche that no other civ can truly emulate IMO. Only complaint I could have if I tried is that the Celts compete with the 'jack-of-all' niche, but since Ethiopia is more generalized and the Celts have to spec based off pantheon I think there's enough variety for both.

 

[documental]

Ethiopia is in a good place I think. They have a unique well defined niche that no other civ can truly emulate IMO. Only complaint I could have if I tried is that the Celts compete with the 'jack-of-all' niche, but since Ethiopia is more generalized and the Celts have to spec based off pantheon I think there's enough variety for both.

Jack of all trades? Really? Cause Tradition->Artistry seems like the optimal way to play to me when it comes to the Celts.

 

[chicorbeef]

Jack of all trades? Really? Cause Tradition->Artistry seems like the optimal way to play to me when it comes to the Celts.

Why that way in particular?

You could go for many different strategies as the Celts, you could pick the Forest pantheon and become Iroquois 2.0, you could pick the Border pantheon and become Russia 2.0, you could pick the yield on kill pantheon and become Aztec 2.0 (and IMO, do it better than the Aztecs can). They can work with any early policy tree depending on your pantheon/terrain.

Ethiopia can also go for different policy trees and is also very versatile. I think they're sufficiently different though, Ethiopia has consistent benefits (free techs/easy religion) that can be leveraged in many ways while the Celts have many different potential benefits that can be leveraged in different ways. Free techs/yield boosts are hard to compare.

 

[documental]

Why that way in particular?

You could go for many different strategies as the Celts, you could pick the Forest pantheon and become Iroquois 2.0, you could pick the Border pantheon and become Russia 2.0, you could pick the yield on kill pantheon and become Aztec 2.0 (and IMO, do it better than the Aztecs can). They can work with any early policy tree depending on your pantheon/terrain.

Ethiopia can also go for different policy trees and is also very versatile. I think they're sufficiently different though, Ethiopia has consistent benefits (free techs/easy religion) that can be leveraged in many ways while the Celts have many different potential benefits that can be leveraged in different ways. Free techs/yield boosts are hard to compare.

I know you can but I generally don't play civs outside the scope of their design, and to me their design is mainly a culture/domination one. You could of course always go Authority or even Fealty. Outside your choice in pantheon their bonus mainly lies in early conquest and having an additional great musician slot in each city. In a game like Civ, or in any game really, you need to stack as many bonuses as you possibly can and their bonuses already lend them to follow certain strategies.

 

[chicorbeef]

I know you can but I generally don't play civs outside the scope of their design, and to me their design is mainly a culture/domination one. You could of course always go Authority or even Fealty. Outside your choice in pantheon their bonus mainly lies in early conquest and having an additional great musician slot in each city. In a game like Civ, or in any game really, you need to stack as many bonuses as you possibly can and their bonuses already lend them to follow certain strategies.

The Pictish Warrior isn't necessarily meant for conquest, it gets Faith off kills but you don't need to play Authority to take advantage of that and the Celts have +3 faith per city anyway which lends itself more to Progress. So it's a trade-off-do you want more faith from your UA or your Picts?

The Ceilidh Hall has more than just the musician slot, it also has +1 happiness and extra WLTKD length and that is best used in a wide empire. The pantheon you take will influence how you use it. For instance if you take Dagda it is a happiness building first and foremost.

So the leanings towards one playstyle, imo, come with tradeoffs on others, and the Celts are meant to adapt to whatever start they're given.

Btw, you said that Celts are a culture/domination civ, but that Tradition-Artistry is the optimal way to play them. Wouldn't that sacrifice their domination potential? How do you do both at the same time? I'd rather play France or Japan if that was my goal.

 

[ElliotS]

Jack of all trades? Really? Cause Tradition->Artistry seems like the optimal way to play to me when it comes to the Celts.

This is just outright wrong. The optimal way to play Celts or Ethiopia is to adapt to your situation and choose what is most beneficial. Sometimes that's Tradition -> Artisrty. Sometimes it's Authority -> Fealty. Sometimes it's Tradition -> Statecraft to counter Siam and prevent them from getting so much benefit from city states.

I know you can but I generally don't play civs outside the scope of their design, and to me their design is mainly a culture/domination one.

Celts nor Ethiopia were designed with a single policy progression in mind. Gazebo has expressed his intent that civs and policy branches shouldn't be married (Arabia is an exception I guess lol) many times. This is an artificial limitation you're putting on yourself.

Honestly if you're going to play them the same every game Progress ->Artistry would probably be best for Ethiopia and Authority->Fealty for Celts. (Though medieval trees REALLY benefit from choosing when you get to them. They're really not tied to starting policy branches any more.)

 

[CrazyG]

So Ethiopia is really good. He gets a free tech whenever he finishes his third policy tree. Then the next turn, he gets another free tech for picking ideologies. I'm going to propose that he loses the free tech on ideologies, as he really doesn't need 2 free techs back to back like that.

 

[crdvis16]

So Ethiopia is really good. He gets a free tech whenever he finishes his third policy tree. Then the next turn, he gets another free tech for picking ideologies. I'm going to propose that he loses the free tech on ideologies, as he really doesn't need 2 free techs back to back like that.

I imagine Ethiopia would still be really strong despite losing that tech. I think their real power is always founding a religion and the crucial early free techs that they get. By the time that free ideology tech comes along they are usually already running away.

If it's a minor nerf we're after then your proposal sounds good. If you wanted a more substantial nerf then reducing their faith might be better (The faith on the Stele is kinda bonkers and the faith on strategics is even more icing) or maybe taking away the free pantheon tech perhaps as it more directly leads to their runaway starting.

 

[CrazyG]

I agree that the faith on strategics is totally unnecessary.

The Stele gets +25% faith during golden ages which is crazy too.

 

[Stalker0]

Honestly I think a small tweak to the Steele is what to focus on. That is the power of Ethiopia, not its techs imo.

 

[pineappledan]

I would start with lowering stele’s Tile cost modifier to 25%, same as monument. I would then look at the +1 to strategics. That bonus translates to 3-6 on empire until industrial, not a lot, but why is it there in the first place? It’s the only part of Ethiopia’s kit tied to terrain; I think it only serves to confuse/dilute Ethiopia’s core design

 

[Moi Magnus]

If you wanted a more substantial nerf then reducing their faith might be better

The main problem I have with Ethiopia is that it suffer even more than other civs if somehow it doesn't manage to found a religion.
So I don't like trying to make this a likely possibility, as long as 2 of their early free techs (plus a 3rd tech from reformation) actually depends on founding a religion.

Then, even if you nerf the faith, they would still be a very good civ, so not that much a problem.

 

[CrazyG]

The main problem I have with Ethiopia is that it suffer even more than other civs if somehow it doesn't manage to found a religion.
So I don't like trying to make this a likely possibility, as long as 2 of their early free techs (plus a 3rd tech from reformation) actually depends on founding a religion.

Then, even if you nerf the faith, they would still be a very good civ, so not that much a problem.

I'm willing to bet you could drop the Stele to 2 faith and AI Ethiopia will still get a religion 999 out of 1,000 games. I have never seen him miss religion, including games played when the stele was only +2 faith and there was no faith on strategic resources.

You could also drop the 25% extra faith during golden ages, which doesn't impact the race to the first great prophet.