EU constitution

[ComradeDavo]

So we have the first of several referendums today about whether to apporve the EU constitution or not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4280841.stm

Spanish voters have begun to cast their votes in a referendum on the EU's first constitution - in the first of a series of polls across Europe.

What I want to know is, do you support the constitution?

(If you would like to know more then that link has all the info about what the constitution will do).

--poll is coming--Edit Poll is here!--

(Explanation of poll - There is a seperate option for US voters bascially because there is so many of them on the forum, so I want to see how the EU is percieved by the US and well as other non EU citizens).

 

[ComradeDavo]

Personally, I am for the constitution because I think it will help make the EU more effective and bring Europe closer together, and I will be supporting the Yes campaign when it coems round to the UK's turn to vote on the issue.

As for todays referendum, the Spanish voters are expected to vote yes

 

[yaroslav]

I am Spaniard and I have voted 'yes'. I don't think that the constitution is the better possible, and I don't like some things of it, but it's better that the set of teatries we currently have...

However, I am afraid that the turnout is going to be very low, as people are really angry against goverment, because the campaign has not been unbiased, with the goverment doing anything possible to get a 'yes' vote...

 

[Richard Cribb]

So we have the first of several referendums today about whether to apporve the EU constitution or not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4280841.stm


What I want to know is, do you support the constitution.

No, definitely not.See below.

(If you would like to know more then that link has all the info about what the constitution will do).

All the info? Hardly.

Personally, I am for the constitution because I think it will help make the EU more effective and bring Europe closer together, and I will be supporting the Yes campaign when it coems round to the UK's turn to vote on the issue.

Rather than a constitution I would call it a manifesto of neoliberal design and I am slightly surprised that a real social-democrat like yourself so vehemently supports it.

I am Spaniard and I have voted 'yes'. I don't think that the constitution is the better possible, and I don't like some things of it, but it's better that the set of teatries we currently have...

Good post. George Monbiot, whom I greatly respect, seems to support this "constitution" for the same reason, that it at least has some good parts.
I understand this but I can't agree with it.

However, I am afraid that the turnout is going to be very low, as people are really angry against goverment, because the campaign has not been unbiased, with the goverment doing anything possible to get a 'yes' vote...

I am also afraid tthat the turnout will be low, and I recognize the problem. In every EU-country the odds are stacked heavily in favour of the yes-parties.

 

[The Last Conformist]

What's so neo-liberal with the constitution? Last I heard, it didn't forbid welfare states or high taxes.

 

[-0blivion-]

I voted 'No' because we simply don't know much about it. Something should be carefully reviewed before you sign yourself into it, and i cannot support the constitution until i know everything about it. The link gives some information, but hardly everything that we will be signing up for.

 

[ComradeDavo]

If anyone wants to know exactly what the full text is download it here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm

Rather than a constitution I would call it a manifesto of neoliberal design and I am slightly surprised that a real social-democrat like yourself so vehemently supports it.

I think Last Conformists answer was a good response to this.

Most of the left-wingers who don't support it probably still think that you can still apply Marx to a modern world.

The EU is what enables countries to have wealfare states! It is what generates the wealth. Saying no to the constitution plays into the hands of nationalists and conservatives who would rather just abolish wealfare states and privatise everything.

I voted 'No' because we simply don't know much about it. Something should be carefully reviewed before you sign yourself into it, and i cannot support the constitution until i know everything about it. The link gives some information, but hardly everything that we will be signing up for.

Well thats what threads like these are for, to generate debate! The BBC has alot on the EU, just do some searching!

 

[yaroslav]

I am also more of a social-democrat than a neo-liberal, but my concerns with the constitution (I have not read it enterely, only 3/4 parts but I voted by mail and I get not time to red it fully ) are more than there was a very big opportunity to simplify the way the European Union works... But all sounds so artificial, the percentages of votes needed, for instance, are so strange. Plus, I would have like more advances in things like a united army, a clearer declaration of rights (there are more intentions that rights) and the like...

-0blivion-: Are you Spanish? If not, where have you voted?

 

[ComradeDavo]

-0blivion-: Are you Spanish? If not, where have you voted?

I think Oblivion means in the poll

As for your points regarding wanting a united army and so on, I think the constitution will help leads towards having more EU wide debate on those issues.

 

[Richard Cribb]

What's so neo-liberal with the constitution? Last I heard, it didn't forbid welfare states or high taxes.

I apologize for having to give you a rather brief answer, I may elaborate it later, but right now I am a bit pressed on time.
The constitution protects freedom for enterprises and "free, unrestricted competition".If we look at Europe in recent years, we see that this in fact means that basic services in public transport, post, energy and telecommunication no longer is regarded as common problems to be adressed communally, but becomes simply a sector of the economy.
Indeed the Lisbon Summit 2000 encouraged to sell such services to major transnational corporations. Parts of the educational system and health service are also likely to be privaticized
It is not the question of taxes or not, but the simple fact that this constitution stipulates the form that the economy will permanently take and prevents any change being made to it by democratic decision. Striving for socialist common ownership of the means of production will become unconstitutional within the EU.
Another point is that federalism is the political form most convenient for neoliberal economics and its need to spread beyond national boundaries.

 

[yaroslav]

Thanks Comrade, it's of course on the poll :shamed:

I hope that the constitution will strengh the Union and launch a debate of wide-European things (more european-wide companies like Airbus, please ). Euro is wonderful, Schengen is wonderful, but I want more power to the European parlament, a pan-european wellfare instead of a wellfare by nation (maybe in the future if it not applicable directly), and anything that will contribute towards reinforce the union

 

[DexterJ]

I will be voting Yes because, although I would not claim to be an expert on the proposed constitution, I do not want to see Britain fall yet further behind the rest of the EU countries with regards to integration.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

I voted no. When it was first drawn up by that Frenchman (Valerie Giscard d'Estang I think) it had the word “Federal” in it. This makes me very suspicious of it. Somewhere hidden in its 4 million pages, it will allow for Federalisation in the long run, even if the word itself has been removed for now.

And someone one day will say – “But you agreed to Federalisation – look you signed your life away in your referendum.”

What me, paranoid? Never.

 

[REDY]

I am Czech so I am not for other connections with France and Germany. Maybe It help economy side but after Hitler and Soviets I love independent Czech Republic. I will vote againist. European Union had more positives than negatives but European Constitution is totally wrong for small countries.

 

[Mise]

I voted 'yes', but I am, in general, quite ambivolent towards European integration. As I understand it, the constitution writes the EU charter of fundamental rights into law across Europe, which means that the British Government will be forced to repeal (or at least adjust) some of the anti-union laws imposed by Thatcher. It also guarantees welfare states, free health care and free education. But I don't really know much about it. I think that's Blair's plan in general -- keep the electorate in the dark and we'll be forced to follow them blindly.

 

[yaroslav]

I will be voting Yes because, although I would not claim to be an expert on the proposed constitution, I do not want to see Britain fall yet further behind the rest of the EU countries with regards to integration.

I have not seen yet a post of yours I don't agree with it

 

[Suppersalmon]

Im English and shall be voting No
I studied the EU as part of my course and as i was doing so i realised how undemocratic it is. I shall also imagine that the UK referendum will end with a No to the EU constitution

 

[eyrei]

I actually read the charter awhile back, and wish the US constitution was more like it, so if I could vote, I would vote for it.

 

[Richard Cribb]

I think Last Conformists answer was a good response to this.

Did you also read my reply to him?

Most of the left-wingers who don't support it probably still think that you can still apply Marx to a modern world.

If that wise remark is aimed at me, I think I have mentioned ad nauseam that I am an anarchist. However I think parts of Marx' thinking is still highly relevant today and rather more modern than a neoliberal constitution.But that is off-topic, of course.

The EU is what enables countries to have wealfare states!

:shakehead :shakehead I really wonder what you did during history classes...

Saying no to the constitution plays into the hands of nationalists and conservatives who would rather just abolish wealfare states and privatise everything.

So we have a typical EU-debate, instead of arguments demogogical slogans are used. Except for the absurd in that people who supports a system that is made by, for and with the very elite that wants to impose a more neoliberal economy with the consequences mentioned above accuses others of this, it is an unaccaptable way of debating as far as I am concerned, so I will leave this thread.
Just let me give some of you a piece of advice: read the EU constitution carefully before you make up your mind.

 

[Hitro]

I am undecided on this and will thus vote no in the poll as I can't just "sign" on to something I'm not convinced of.

The only argument in favour of it for me is that it might be better than nothing. But effectively it is far too undemocratic for my taste and simply doesn't go far enough. I tend to prefer a "either complete or not at all" stance on these matters, I think countries who didn't want to join the Euro should have been kicked out, for example.

But as we won't even hold a referendum (which would probably lead to a "no" and the factual collapse of the whole union) this doesn't matter at all. Great democracy this is...