Eureka: Some speculations and worries

[Sporally]

I know there have been other threads on the eureka system, but I don't think these following questions / speculations have been adressed.

First of I do think the eureka system sounds very promising and very interesting. For Civ6 I hoped to see some sort of quest and events that will change the way we play the game and I do think the eureka system could address this in an interesting way.

However my worries are if this system will work as it should. Say I am going for tech A and I complete a eureka for tech B that was available for research straight away but not chosen because I wanted tech A first. Since I am working on tech A will I still get the boost for tech B? If so, that would be alright. However I see this system could create some odd gameplay.

Say tech B was fishing and the eureka demanded me to build a city at a coast tile (I believe this eureka actually do exist). In my situation I was very eager to go finishing at the very moment it would be possible. If playing Civ5 I would consider it prefect timing if a settler reached the coast tile and founded the city on the same turn I finished the fishing tech so I could build /buy my fishing boat right away. But here's the odd gameplay I would pick for Civ6:

Go through 50 % of tech B and go to whatever tech I wanted next. When I found the city on the coast tile the eureka moment finishes tech B. Thereafter I can build my fishing boats.

In case going for tech A doesn't allow you to get eureka for other techs you would have to switch to tech B just in the turn you build your coastal city just to get the 50 % boost and thereafter go straight back to tech A while leaving tech B at 50 % completed. If you forget to switch you will surely get annoyed with the game (of yourself) every time you forget it

Whether eureka moments work for all available techs is one thing, but what about the currently unavailable tech D that requires for instance tech C to be completed before being available for research? If eureka moments don't work for tech D because it is currently unavailable for research that could mean you would go for tech C just because it is cheap and it would give you a 50 % tech boost to tech D just before you complete the eureka quest for text D.

This would give a really strange gameplay, but I guess one could argue that's just the charm of the Civ6 eureka system

What are your thoughts and current understanding on these two scenarios? You think there's a simple explanation to this? Especially the first speculation is puzzling me

 

[bite]

From my understanding Eureka's trigger no matter what you are researching at the time, so this should not be a problem

 

[SupremacyKing2]

From my understanding Eureka's trigger no matter what you are researching at the time, so this should not be a problem

Yes, Pete Murray on Twitter, confirmed to me awhile back that eurekas can trigger for techs you have not researched yet. The game will just remember to give you the boost whenever you do start researching it.

 

[Brackenspore]

I want the option which may deactivate Eureka

 

[stiiknafuulia]

Depending on how the beakers are added with the Eurekas, 'half-researching' techs in advance might or might not become a thing. I'd prefer that it be avoided, because it's both gamey and tedious.

As for the workboat timing issue, it's speculated that workboats no longer exist and water improvements are simply built by embarked workers (the way it always should've been imo). Ofc a similar situations might exist with some other unit or mechanic, but it's rare for any system to be perfect and I think the good sides of the Eurekas will outweigh the bad ones (ofc only playing will tell this for sure).

 

[Ivan Hunger]

As far as I know, eurekas will trigger for both techs you're not currently researching and techs you don't have the prerequisites for yet. This means that, theoretically, you could trigger a eureka for an information era tech while you're still in the ancient era, although the eurekas are probably designed in a way as to make this very unlikely.

What I want to know is if "wasted" science from eurekas will carry over into the next tech you start researching. Say I have a queue set up to research Tech A first and then Tech B after that. Tech A costs 1000 science to research. If I have already invested 750 science into completing Tech A, then receive a 500 science eureka boost to it, will the 250 extra science I already invested in Tech A be refunded and used to further the progress of Tech B?

It's like when you find an ancient ruin, but the ruin gives you a free tech that you were only one turn away from researching yourself. I don't want eurekas to give players the same unsatisfied feeling.

 

[Sporally]

Good. That makes sense and almost solves it

But still you could have games where you would stop the research because you were about to get the eureka quest done. Think about my example with finishing - why would I go beyond 50 % completion if I knew I would get a 50 % boost when founding the city. And I don't need fishing before I get the city - but maybe I want to have it ready just in time for my new city.

What I want to know is if "wasted" science from eurekas will carry over into the next tech you start researching. Say I have a queue set up to research Tech A first and then Tech B after that. Tech A costs 1000 science to research. If I have already invested 750 science into completing Tech A, then receive a 500 science eureka boost to it, will the 250 extra science I already invested in Tech A be refunded and used to further the progress of Tech B?

I find it unlikely you will carry it over. It's very unrealistic if you did and I find that though gameplay is very important to Firaxis they do want realism. But true it can be a bit annoying when it doesn't get carried over. For ancient ruins it wouldn't make sense historically that you could carry anything over if terms of research if you found a ruin with pottery in it. What does finding pottery have anything to do with say animal husbandry?

 

[skyclad]

My worry about this is that they say, "this will lead to unique game-play since you will be trying to get different heureka moments" etc... But maybe it will make each game play more similar even? Like if you always get a bonus for building 3 spearmen, building a city on the coast, etc it will be pointless.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

There's two options that I can see here.

If the Eureka beakers do carry over to the next tech, it will seem unrealistic and could lead to strategies where you 'Eureka fund' unrelated techs with the leftover Eureka science.

Otoh, if the beakers won't carry over, it will mean that it's optimal to 'half-research' every tech that you can expect to get a future Eureka for (in fairly short order).

Imo, option #2 is slightly worse than #1, but they're almost equally iffy. Unofortunately, there is no third option that I can think of.

 

[stealth_nsk]

There's two options that I can see here.

If the Eureka beakers do carry over to the next tech, it will seem unrealistic and could lead to strategies where you 'Eureka fund' unrelated techs with the leftover Eureka science.

Otoh, if the beakers won't carry over, it will mean that it's optimal to 'half-research' every tech that you can expect to get a future Eureka for (in fairly short order).

Imo, option #2 is slightly worse than #1, but they're almost equally iffy. Unofortunately, there is no third option that I can think of.

I believe the best solution is to carry over the half. I.e. if you have 70% of tech completed and get eureka, you carry over the 10% of the tech cost carried for the next tech. This way you'll not get nor loose anything from getting eureka.

 

[boghog]

There's two options that I can see here.

If the Eureka beakers do carry over to the next tech, it will seem unrealistic and could lead to strategies where you 'Eureka fund' unrelated techs with the leftover Eureka science.

Otoh, if the beakers won't carry over, it will mean that it's optimal to 'half-research' every tech that you can expect to get a future Eureka for (in fairly short order).

Imo, option #2 is slightly worse than #1, but they're almost equally iffy. Unofortunately, there is no third option that I can think of.

There is a third option: Disallow switching the tech midway.

 

[JosephC]

What I want to know is if "wasted" science from eurekas will carry over into the next tech you start researching. Say I have a queue set up to research Tech A first and then Tech B after that. Tech A costs 1000 science to research. If I have already invested 750 science into completing Tech A, then receive a 500 science eureka boost to it, will the 250 extra science I already invested in Tech A be refunded and used to further the progress of Tech B?

When I first read about the eureka moments, I assumed the boost was to "production" of your science. So if you produced 10 science per turn you would produce 15 science while researching this tech.
But I havn't been following Civ VI super close so I may have missed an interview or gameplay video that explained it otherwise.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

There is a third option: Disallow switching the tech midway.

Extremely bad solution by a wide margin, imo. If you're researching Metal Casting and it will take 26 turns to finish, and Alex comes knocking with 7 Hoplites, you must be able to switch to Archery and save your empire.

@stealth_nsk: I thought about your solution after posting, but it would simply mean that it's non-optimal to research more than 50 % of a tech, because you will 'waste' half the leftover Eureka beakers. So, it becomes a 'softer' version of the half-research strategy (it's no longer as bad to research over half of a tech, but it should be avoided whenever possible). It might be better than either of the 'pure' options, but it's still far from satisfying, imo.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

When I first read about the eureka moments, I assumed the boost was to "production" of your science. So if you produced 10 science per turn you would produce 15 science while researching this tech.
But I havn't been following Civ VI super close so I may have missed an interview or gameplay video that explained it otherwise.

Ah. This is a genuine third solution (or fourth if you count locking the tech). However, it would then become optimal to not research any of the tech before getting the Eureka, so as to avoid any 'non-boosted' turns while researching it.

I seem to recall that in one of the videos, the previewer immediately discovered a tech upon getting a Eureka, so we know what this is not the way they've implemented the mechanic. I'm not totally sure though, so if someone could find the exact video (and the right spot in it), that'd be great.

 

[Alextheglorious]

My main fear is that having big empires is going to make it far easier to have eureka moments (more different resources available, easier to pump out and support multiple units, etc), so the system will accelerate successful empires and do less for struggling ones.

Will the system promote war mongering, with eureka moments for killing certain numbers or troops or having certain units available? Or will their be peaceful ones - e.g. go fifty turns in the industrial era could be something diplomaticy...

 

[smartcanuck1988]

I doubt this is how it works but I think Eureka should only give you the first half of the tech (not just 50% added on your current progress). So if you research 50% of a tech, then you get the Eureka out of some event, it's like you got nothing. So eurekas are mostly helpful for techs you have not researched yet.

The way I think about it for the coastal city example is that settling on the coast made you realise you can fish in the waters and use it for transport (first 50%, the eureka! moment) then you started planing how to build a boat and make it float and catch fish (second 50%). You could've started researching the first 50% yourself even without a coast, but if you settled on a coast after that it's not like you magically figured out how to build a boat. You'd be thinking "here's the water and fish, but oh well we already knew this".

Or as someone suggested, if a eureka would speed up research rate and not be a flat added boost then it makes sense too.

 

[bite]

My main fear is that having big empires is going to make it far easier to have eureka moments (more different resources available, easier to pump out and support multiple units, etc), so the system will accelerate successful empires and do less for struggling ones.

Will the system promote war mongering, with eureka moments for killing certain numbers or troops or having certain units available? Or will their be peaceful ones - e.g. go fifty turns in the industrial era could be something diplomaticy...

From what we can see, the Eureka bonuses for the civic tree are the more peaceful ones

 

[stealth_nsk]

I doubt this is how it works but I think Eureka should only give you the first half of the tech (not just 50% added on your current progress). So if you research 50% of a tech, then you get the Eureka out of some event, it's like you got nothing. So eurekas are mostly helpful for techs you have not researched yet.

The way I think about it for the coastal city example is that settling on the coast made you realise you can fish in the waters and use it for transport (first 50%, the eureka! moment) then you started planing how to build a boat and make it float and catch fish (second 50%). You could've started researching the first 50% yourself even without a coast, but if you settled on a coast after that it's not like you magically figured out how to build a boat. You'd be thinking "here's the water and fish, but oh well we already knew this".

Or as someone suggested, if a eureka would speed up research rate and not be a flat added boost then it makes sense too.

The main problem here is to avoid tech micromanagement. Civ4 was quite bad - due to SoD the highest difficulty levels were a big challenge, so players tried to get everything they could, including playing with things like science percentage to get optimal results in techs. It would be great if this can be avoided.

Both boosting only first half and just speeding up tech will work (although the first approach is quite harsh), but as far as we know, that's not how it eureka works now. We've seen gaining eureka during research and receiving instant tech. So it looks like eureka just gives half the tech cost and we need to think about overflow based on this.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

The more I think about it, the more I like JospehC's solution. If it were done this way (percentage boost to research), the overflow issue would go away, and there would be a fairly small 'penalty' for starting on a tech before getting its Eureka. It would still be optimal to start from 0 %, sure, but there would be many occasions where the wait could prove more detrimental than not getting all the possible beakers (wonder race, etc). Some Eurekas may even be uncertain to get, which would further disadvantage waiting at 0%.

It's a pity if they've not done it this way (as seems to be the case). I doubt they'll change such a major mechanic before release, so we'll likely have to use mods to test this solution. Ofc Firaxis may have some ace up their sleeve that none of us has thought about, but I doubt this based on their past record (ofc it's largely a different team, so there is some hope).

 

[JosephC]

I seem to recall that in one of the videos, the previewer immediately discovered a tech upon getting a Eureka, so we know what this is not the way they've implemented the mechanic.

If that's the case, another way it could work is an immediate change to the total cost of the tech. If the tech cost 1000 science to research, once you get your Eureka moment it now costs 500. If you had already researched above 500, the overflow research is still on a 1:1 ratio with any other tech.

Which would eliminate the overflow issue and eliminate the need to hold off researching something til you get the eureka boost.