Xanikk999
History junkie
Thats not a credible article. At the bottom of the page it says its unsourced since february 2007.
Give me something else.
Europe vs. US
- Thread starter Swedishguy
- Start date
Thats not a credible article. At the bottom of the page it says its unsourced since february 2007.
Give me something else.
cubsfan6506
Got u
http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab19.asp
Don't tell me this is proving your point scroll to the bottom and you'll see that russia's exclude's waiting to be dismanteled ones. we all know russia will never get around to.
Don't tell me this is proving your point scroll to the bottom and you'll see that russia's exclude's waiting to be dismanteled ones. we all know russia will never get around to.
Pasi Nurminen
Deity
The article is sourced. There are a couple of unsourced statements in the article, but the two of them are not relevant to the size or capability or Russia's arsenal.
Anyways, you shouldn't need a source to know that Russia has an immense arsenal of weapons of mass destruction.
Xanikk999
History junkie
Well then find a more up to date one?
SG-17
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 2,632
Ah, but you forget, we (and possibly Israel) are the only nation(s) with F-22's, the most advanced fighter in the world, they have the ability to elude, SAMs, radar, and other AA tech. They are super-fast, have large payloads of missiles, and a single F-22 could take out whole squadrons of older aircraft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22
dont forget about the new F-35's
------------------
and even though russia has more, we have more working ones, that we could launch in 15 mins.
Splime
Regular Lurker
What I notice is that everyone jumps ahead and says that the US would be making an invasion of Europe. Now, what if the EU and other European countries invaded the US? Really, whoever invades loses in this scenario. Of course, by loses, I mean loses slightly more -- a war like this would be devastating on both sides.
So, I think we should further discuss the scenario where Europe invades the US.
So, I think we should further discuss the scenario where Europe invades the US.
Ball Lightning
www.sporedum.net
If George Bush is still president Europe, otheriwse whoever has the better allies and/or leader.
cubsfan6506
Got u
Warheads haven't flipped 8000 in the last 5 years.
sonorakitch
Overseas hunter
Sorry, I had to edit the bold part for you.
Could you please provide us with a source stating the collective EU air force is larger than the US's? I happen to know this is entirely untrue, but would love to review your data.
I think even the military establishment in the EU would agree it doesn't stand a chance. The downsizing of personell and weapons is almost universal across Europe even today.
~Chris
Pasi Nurminen
Deity
UK: 998
France: 560
Germany: 624
Russia: 3409
Italy: 585
Total: 6176
USA: 6057
Obviously these are skewed numbers since I only counted air forces but counted all types of aircraft in service, including trainers. I also only counted six European countries, meaning the actual total of aircraft for the European side is much higher.
In practical terms, I should have only counted the Navy for the American side, since you'd only be able to field carrier based aircraft. In spite of all this, these numbers still indicate numerical European superiority.
And like I said, factor in European AA defences (SAMs, AAA) and an American aerial force wouldn't stand a chance.
And do you really think that less than six hundred thousand soldiers would be able to take on Europe's collective strength? That's the total personnel in the US Army and Marine Corps. I ignore Navy and Air Force in that figure since you can't conquer or occupy a land mass with a Navy or Air Force.
cubsfan6506
Got u
The americans could launch bombers from isreal. Also many long range bombers from the u.s
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Thats not a source Pasi. And I happen to know that a much larger portion of the EU assets are much older aircraft that just dont cut it in todays high-tech fighter world.
Sigh. Let me go get the real numbers with a website link so that everyone can see it. I will debunk this just like I debunked your claim about how great the Russia submarine fleet is, when I showed how rusty it really is.
Pasi Nurminen
Deity
Like the MiG 17, an aircraft renowned for downing "superior" American aircraft in Viet Nam? In real military combat, "high tech" doesn't go too far. I added up my numbers from reputable sources.
As an aside, how did you manage to go so long without getting on my ignore list when your posts are little more than a Republican Party brochure? Well, allow me to correct that oversight.
nivi
Call me Ishmael
Again and again we see how "high tech" does infact go far, and it is the biggest force multiplier in war. We do not see this only now but going back to ancient times.
Yes, there are instances were technologically inferior (the Mig 17 was not that inferior, the majority of losses were due to mechanical failures and ground fire, and considering the insane number of sorties, the losses weren't that bad) armies will win (forget about political victories for now), but those are the exception, not the rule.
Pasi Nurminen
Deity
Again and again we see how "high tech" does infact go far, and it is the biggest force multiplier in war. We do not see this only now but going back to ancient times.
Yes, there are instances were technologically inferior (the Mig 17 was not that inferior, the majority of losses were due to mechanical failures and ground fire, and considering the insane number of sorties, the losses weren't that bad) armies will win (forget about political victories for now), but those are the exception, not the rule.
Completely wrong. My 1,700 figure is combat losses and is completely accurate. If you add in non combat losses, the total rises to 2,200.
By contrast, the Americans downed less than 200 Vietnamese aircraft.
nivi
Call me Ishmael
I looked up the figures, and you are right, but when looking it up I ran into some more intresting figures, the mig 17 was not alone, there were mig 19 and 21 also, just a quick look thorgh the list of downed aircraft, I found 600 combat losses that were recon or ground attack aircraft only.
But yeah, an inferior force managed do better then the supirior force, and it still didn't them much good in the war.
All this, compared to the air battles of korea, arab-israeli wars, iraq, and many others, tells me that technology is very important.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Ok, here is my debunkage.
I am only counting the most modern jet fighter aircraft available from the EU and the USA as aircraft from the 50s or 60s would just get owned by todays more modern jet fighters.
Here are the numbers and references.
Modern EU Jet fighters in operation.
Rafale - 59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
Tornado - 710 (but about 2/3rd of these are stike fighter varient not air superiority varients) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
Eurofighter Typhoon - 40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronautica_Militare_Italiana
JAS 39 Gripen - 204 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Sweden
Mirage 2000 - 261 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Air_Force
Mirage F1 - 109 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Air_Force
That is a total of 1383 modern fighter jets available.
Here is the USA inventory.
FA-18E/F Super Hornet - 300 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#_note-0
FA-18 Hornet - 1079 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet
F-16 (all varients) - 2547 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Operators
F-15/F-15E - 746 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Eagle and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle
Thats a total of 4672.
So Pasi, you may have more aircraft...but we have more aircraft THAT MATTER....by a lot...a whole lot.
And if that wasnt enough.....
The USA now has the only 5th generation air superiority fighters in operation in the world.
The F-22 Raptor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor Currently around 100 in active service with two squadrons fully fielded. A little snippet of what it is capable of:
I repeat...a 144 to zero kill ratio against the next most modern fighter jets around.
And we are expecting delivery of the other 5th generation fighter - the F-35 Lightning II to the tune of 2400 aircraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II
Again...just like I destroyed you in the other russian sub factoids...I have completely tooled you again.
I am only counting the most modern jet fighter aircraft available from the EU and the USA as aircraft from the 50s or 60s would just get owned by todays more modern jet fighters.
Here are the numbers and references.
Modern EU Jet fighters in operation.
Rafale - 59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
Tornado - 710 (but about 2/3rd of these are stike fighter varient not air superiority varients) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
Eurofighter Typhoon - 40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronautica_Militare_Italiana
JAS 39 Gripen - 204 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_Sweden
Mirage 2000 - 261 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Air_Force
Mirage F1 - 109 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Air_Force
That is a total of 1383 modern fighter jets available.
Here is the USA inventory.
FA-18E/F Super Hornet - 300 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#_note-0
FA-18 Hornet - 1079 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet
F-16 (all varients) - 2547 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Operators
F-15/F-15E - 746 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Eagle and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15E_Strike_Eagle
Thats a total of 4672.
So Pasi, you may have more aircraft...but we have more aircraft THAT MATTER....by a lot...a whole lot.
And if that wasnt enough.....
The USA now has the only 5th generation air superiority fighters in operation in the world.
The F-22 Raptor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor Currently around 100 in active service with two squadrons fully fielded. A little snippet of what it is capable of:
I repeat...a 144 to zero kill ratio against the next most modern fighter jets around.
And we are expecting delivery of the other 5th generation fighter - the F-35 Lightning II to the tune of 2400 aircraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II
Again...just like I destroyed you in the other russian sub factoids...I have completely tooled you again.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
The point, Pasi, that you continue to ignore, is there was no way to counter heatseeking AAMs during this period which enabled inferior aircraft to down more modern aircraft. And again..you totally ignore the fact that that just isnt going to happen in todays world.
Ah....the old tactic of 'ignore my opponent before I get owned'. Very nice.
Reminds me of a song from the Holy Grail...'brave, brave Sir Robin.....he cowardly ran away....I DIDNT!'
China. Obviously. There's no way either could win the war.
MobBoss, you're right. If both the EU and USA had to face each other with their entire militaries tommarow, the USA would win. However, war doesn't happen over night. Europe would have time to gear up. Years, probably. I give them the edge in that situation.
MobBoss, you're right. If both the EU and USA had to face each other with their entire militaries tommarow, the USA would win. However, war doesn't happen over night. Europe would have time to gear up. Years, probably. I give them the edge in that situation.
