Europe vs. US

Who would win?


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I will concede the Leopard Tank of Germany: a fantastic armoured vehicle that comes very close to matching the effectiveness of the Abrahms...but not close enough.

The Leopard IIA6 (latest model) is probably better than the M1A2 by nature of its superior gun. Various European armies are upgrading from the old L44 used in the Abrams to the longer-ranged higher-velocity L55.

Also in addition to thousands of Leopard II's the EU also has hundreds of modern Challenger II, LeClercs and Arietes (plus all the older tanks in the inventory).

Also, Europe does not field a single bomber which can reach American soil in any large numbers, much less compete with the B-1 and B-2. (the only EU bomber manufactured wholly in the EU, the Tornado (BAE), was decommissioned in 1998 by the UK).

The Tornado is a multi-role aircraft not a inter-continental bomber and it's still in service. What are you talking about?

Considering also that the EU has no program in place to develop UAV's, and does not field any, the strategic reconnaissance capabilities are very small.

The following EU contries currently use UAV's they designed.

Czech Republic, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Poland, Sweden, UK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unmanned_aerial_vehicles


France, Sweden, Greece, Switzerland, Spain and Italy are developing the nEUROn

The United Kingdom is developing the Corax/Raven

Germany and Spain are developing the Barracuda


PS-I advise you conceade the argument by not replying, as you are entering my territory and expertise. ;)

You need to do more research :D
 
If the war starts with no prior preparation, the US wins hands down.

In the very short term, thanks to the USN the the US will be able to control the Atlantic and maintain trade with the Asian Pacific Rim countries and the Middle East. It will also control the Middle East itself thanks to the army currently stationed in Iraq and help from Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. As people already mentioned, the US will also easily seize Iceland, the Azores and the Canaries.

Europe will not be besieged, but it will have no freedom of movement. It will lose it's oil supply from the Middle East and a lot of vital trade from all over the world.

Thanks to this, and the American superior military development and production capacities, within a few years the United States will be able to field a large enough Navy and Army. The beautiful thing is that the US won't have to do a dangerous and bloody sea landing from the Atlantic. Troops will be easily and safely transported from the West Coast to the Middle east(or from the East Coast around Africa), and from there, while the USN and hundreds of long range bombers pester W. Europe, a land invasion will commence through Turkey, together with smaller forces landing in Sicily(ala WWII).
 
Why are the mods allowing this thread to continue? I Thought it would have been closed and/or merged with the older thread.
 
The search tool is your friend. This has been done to death several times now with the same conclusion. USA victory.

You mean your conclusion.

In fact, it would be a tie. US would be unable to invade Europe and Europe has no means to re-colonize America.
 
How many of these new subs they have? Only a couple. And only a couple of EU nations have them...Also, knowing that the subs cant be hear passively will mean our navy will use active sonar measures to ping them out. The USN would move to use naval and air ASW assets to ferret the few subs of this caliber out.

Even older EU Conventionals regularly sink CVN's on exercises (I've provided you links on this before). The difference with the newer AIP boats is that they can't be found even when being hunted by far more concentrated ASW assets than you could really manage in wartime because you're hunting over a far wider area.

Again, its called localized air superiority. You seem to think that all the EU air power capable of defending all of EU airspace all at once. Thats a false assumption. As for the ground based radar or SAMs those can be targeted by HARM missiles designed to follow an active radar signal to its source.

They don't have to defend the whole EU airspace only the parts on the Atlantic Coast the USN can actually reach. There's no point keeping aircraft inland that the F/A-18s operating far from shore can't actually get to.

As for HARM's you'd have a job getting close enough to use them given you're entering hostile airspace long before they're in range and in any case the EU is covered with radar sites you'd have to knock out not to mention AWAC's Early-Warning Aircraft you need to contend with.

If anything, the USA has shown its capability in defeating a layers thick AAA/SAM radar defensive belt and knows how to do so better than anyone in the world.

The US has never faced anything like the numbers and technological sophistication of the systems the EU can put in front of it in this scenario.
 
If the war starts with no prior preparation, the US wins hands down.

If the war starts with no prior preparation the US is in trouble because of how much of it's equipment and manpower is in Europe and would have to immediately surrender :lol:

In the very short term, thanks to the USN the the US will be able to control the Atlantic and maintain trade with the Asian Pacific Rim countries and the Middle East. It will also control the Middle East itself thanks to the army currently stationed in Iraq and help from Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. As people already mentioned, the US will also easily seize Iceland, the Azores and the Canaries.

Reinforcing Iceland, the Azores and the Canaries isn't that difficult for the EU as it happens depending on how the scenario begins. If I was in charge I'd move several squadrons of aircraft there on day one (they only need to fly there) and also ship thousands of infantry there on civilian airliners (the EU has plenty of those available).

As for the Middle-East given that the EU will own the Med things aren't as easy as you'd think.

Europe will not be besieged, but it will have no freedom of movement. It will lose it's oil supply from the Middle East and a lot of vital trade from all over the world.

Much of our oil comes from Russia and the North Sea and the trade isn't vital in military terms. The EU is an industrial colossus (check the figures for manufacturing output, they're much higher than the US).

Thanks to this, and the American superior military development and production capacities, within a few years the United States will be able to field a large enough Navy and Army.

Sorry but the EU has far greater industrial potential (shipbuilding, steel production, automobile factories, electronics) than the United States plus more existing armaments industry (many European contries have under utilised defence manufacturing infrastructure kept open for reasons of national pride, even a small country like Finland assembles its own fighters). The US has a massive trade deficit because it has to import manufactured goods from abroad, the EU exports them.

Also in the longer term the US starts to really fall back in relative terms because it wouldn't be spending more than twice as much on defence any more like it does at present once the Europeans shift from a peacetime economy.

The beautiful thing is that the US won't have to do a dangerous and bloody sea landing from the Atlantic. Troops will be easily and safely transported from the West Coast to the Middle east(or from the East Coast around Africa), and from there, while the USN and hundreds of long range bombers pester W. Europe, a land invasion will commence through Turkey, together with smaller forces landing in Sicily(ala WWII).

The Med will be an EU lake so Sicily is out. In any case the US doesn't have the numbers to invade Europe from any direction.
 
Hotpoint said:
The US has never faced anything like the numbers and technological sophistication of the systems the EU can put in front of it in this scenario.

One thing:

in all these speculations, nobody discussed military production capacities. In such scenario, both sides would immediately switch to arms production.

EU countries would produce their hi-tech weapons, and once it would take off, they'd be able to resist the US attacks. Also, provisions would be made to prevent any invasion to the continent.

US would still face huge logistical problems, which means the EU would be able to successfully defend itself for unlimited period of time.
 
To be honest I think that no matter who wins, the US will lose. This is not due to any concerns of military power, the US simply can't pay for an invasion/occupation or even attack.

Also, certain people in this thread remind me of this comic strip.
 
To be honest I think that no matter who wins, the US will lose. This is not due to any concerns of military power, the US simply can't pay for an invasion/occupation or even attack.

Also, certain people in this thread remind me of this comic strip.

War between great powers is always senseless, that's why it is so rare.

Great powers tend to maintain their spheres of influence and respect the other great powers. In the nuclear age, this has become even more true.

And if there are two great powers, between which war is almost unimaginable, it is the US and EU (if taken as one country). They share so many interests and they are so closely interconnected, that any war would destroy their economies and lead to poverty, even if it was fought exclusively over Atlantic.
 
War between great powers is always senseless, that's why it is so rare.

Great powers tend to maintain their spheres of influence and respect the other great powers. In the nuclear age, this has become even more true.

And if there are two great powers, between which war is almost unimaginable, it is the US and EU (if taken as one country). They share so many interests and they are so closely interconnected, that any war would destroy their economies and lead to poverty, even if it was fought exclusively over Atlantic.

Direct military conflict, perhaps, but there is no shortage of economic or ideological conflict going on (you can see that I am refering to the USSR). Great powers DO fight, they just don't fight on the battle field.
 
Direct military conflict, perhaps, but there is no shortage of economic or ideological conflict going on (you can see that I am refering to the USSR). Great powers DO fight, they just don't fight on the battle field.

That was the message. I'd use the word "compete" instead of "fight". China does not fight the US. Russia does not fight Europe. Europe does not fight America. They compete in some fields, they cooperate in others. That's natural.

As for the Cold war - it is interesting to see, how ideology progressively lost relevance - Red China eventually became an "ally" of the US against the communist brothers of the Soviet Union.

Interests can be defined by ideology, and often indeed are, but it's not a rule.

Europe and the US share interests, values, mutually beneifical trade relations. There is nothing to fight over.
 
If the war starts with no prior preparation the US is in trouble because of how much of it's equipment and manpower is in Europe and would have to immediately surrender :lol:

Yeah. That's a big weakness.

Reinforcing Iceland, the Azores and the Canaries isn't that difficult for the EU as it happens depending on how the scenario begins. If I was in charge I'd move several squadrons of aircraft there on day one (they only need to fly there) and also ship thousands of infantry there on civilian airliners (the EU has plenty of those available).

And nevertheless, with the USN having almost complete naval and air superiority in all three locations, they would all fall. I'm not saying it would be a complete cakewalk, but it wont be very hard either.

As for the Middle-East given that the EU will own the Med things aren't as easy as you'd think.

The EU won't own the Med.

In the event of a great US-EU world war, Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia will cooperate with the US. Israel would do it willingly, and Egypt and Saudi Arabia are both American allies which received a lot of military help from the US so they would join too. Whatever qualms the latter two might have, 170,000 US troops in Iraq will be incentive enough.

Turkey will stay neutral until it has no choice.

With that, you have the Suez Canal and the Eastern Mediterranean all the way to Greece under American control on Day 1 of the war. Taking the rest of N. Africa will be a piece of cake, considering the fact that the only N. African army that's worth something is the Egyptian one. So the Med will be one huge warzone, with European control of the North and American control of the South. It would make for some great air battles.

Much of our oil comes from Russia and the North Sea and the trade isn't vital in military terms. The EU is an industrial colossus (check the figures for manufacturing output, they're much higher than the US).

Sorry but the EU has far greater industrial potential (shipbuilding, steel production, automobile factories, electronics) than the United States plus more existing armaments industry (many European contries have under utilised defence manufacturing infrastructure kept open for reasons of national pride, even a small country like Finland assembles its own fighters). The US has a massive trade deficit because it has to import manufactured goods from abroad, the EU exports them.

Yes, but it's the EU's coasts that would be under fire, and it's the EU that will lose access to most of the world's markets. As already mentioned, the US has a total superiority in long range bombers and cruise missiles.

Of course that EU military production will make a huge leap, but considering that the EU will be on the defensive from Day 1 and that, as you said, it's existing defense manufacturing infrastructure is under utilized, the US will be able to produce much more and much faster.

Also in the longer term the US starts to really fall back in relative terms because it wouldn't be spending more than twice as much on defence any more like it does at present once the Europeans shift from a peacetime economy.

Again, it's true but it will be much harder for Europe to mobilize that it would be for the US. I'd wager that by the time Europe finally gets it's industries organized(not so easy with 25 countries speaking different languages and having different standards), an American invasion army will be already making it's first steps on European soil.

The Med will be an EU lake so Sicily is out. In any case the US doesn't have the numbers to invade Europe from any direction.

See my reply to the first quote.
 
The EU won't own the Med.

In the event of a great US-EU world war, Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia will cooperate with the US. Israel would do it willingly, and Egypt and Saudi Arabia are both American allies which received a lot of military help from the US so they would join too. Whatever qualms the latter two might have, 170,000 US troops in Iraq will be incentive enough.

Turkey will stay neutral until it has no choice.

Israel would most probably stay neutral, as well as Egypt. Saudi Arabia would probably support the US.

I wonder what could possibly Israel gain by fighting a war, that is totally not in its interest. As for Egypt - the whole country's economy is entirely dependant on the EU.
 
And nevertheless, with the USN having almost complete naval and air superiority in all three locations, they would all fall. I'm not saying it would be a complete cakewalk, but it wont be very hard either.

To be honest you're underating the ability of the EU to defend those locations. Even a few thousand entrenched light infantry can be a monumental pain in the ass to clear out if they really want to make a fight of it.

Look at the performance of the IDF in the Lebanon recently for an example there, even with gross military superiority they still had major problems.

The EU won't own the Med.

The Straits of Gibraltar are easily closed to shipping (heck they're so narrow you can do it with artillery) and any US vessels already in there are Conventional Submarine fodder as the USN Nuclear Subs are at a severe disadvantage in waters like that. Closing the Suez Canal isn't that difficult either assuming Egypt lets the USN use it anyway.

In the event of a great US-EU world war, Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia will cooperate with the US. Israel would do it willingly, and Egypt and Saudi Arabia are both American allies which received a lot of military help from the US so they would join too. Whatever qualms the latter two might have, 170,000 US troops in Iraq will be incentive enough.

Israel would have to be insane not to stay neutral. It couldn't possibly risk pissing off the Europeans enough for them to say to various Arab countries "how would you like us to start shipping you high-tech NATO weaponry? Shall we say a couple of billion Euro's worth of Shoulder-Launched SAM's and Anti-Tank Missiles for a start?'

If we were facing US invasion we'd arm Iran for pities sake for much the same reason that Israel helped them in the 1980's against Iraq.

Turkey will stay neutral until it has no choice.

Then it'll throw in its lot with Europe. Too much to lose.

With that, you have the Suez Canal and the Eastern Mediterranean all the way to Greece under American control on Day 1 of the war. Taking the rest of N. Africa will be a piece of cake, considering the fact that the only N. African army that's worth something is the Egyptian one. So the Med will be one huge warzone, with European control of the North and American control of the South. It would make for some great air battles.

How many warships would the USN have to lose to European Air and Submarine attacks before it started to think the Med was a bit too hot for it? They just don't have enough carriers in the area to possibly withstand the hundreds of aircraft that could be thrown at them once the Europeans get their act together even if they could magically sink all the subs hunting them.

Yes, but it's the EU's coasts that would be under fire, and it's the EU that will lose access to most of the world's markets. As already mentioned, the US has a total superiority in long range bombers and cruise missiles.

None of the US bomber fleet would survive raids into EU Airspace (we've got gear that can even track the B2A let alone B-1B's and B-52's) and the US doesn't actually have a fraction of the cruise missiles needed to more than irritate the Europeans, there's just too many damn targets.

Of course that EU military production will make a huge leap, but considering that the EU will be on the defensive from Day 1 and that, as you said, it's existing defense manufacturing infrastructure is under utilized, the US will be able to produce much more and much faster.

Even at full tilt production the US can't produce conventional munitions fast enough to cause sufficient damage to the EU to get the job done before the Europeans are ramping up their own lines. Once the USN submarines and surface vessels have run out of Cruise Missiles they'll have to be restocked and again there's far, far more targets than missiles.

Let's be honest, the USAF doesn't even have enough bombs in storage to get the job done ;)

Think of all the NATO air missions that had to be flown against Serbia only to find out afterwards they hadn't even destroyed a fraction of the equipment they thought they had. Scale that up to the whole EU and think about it again.

Again, it's true but it will be much harder for Europe to mobilize that it would be for the US. I'd wager that by the time Europe finally gets it's industries organized(not so easy with 25 countries speaking different languages and having different standards), an American invasion army will be already making it's first steps on European soil.

Existing EU military formations are more than sufficient to smash any conceivable US invasion. We're talking millions of troops backed by thousands of tanks and artillery pieces where the Europeans are well trained professional soldiers not middle-eastern rabble and the technology gap isn't the gulf it was fighting against the Iraqi's either.
 
Not having read the whole thread, I just want to ask one question to the "America-wins"-fraction in here: Why do you think that an US-Army that at the moment is said to be tied up in Iraq and not being able to pull off a full invasion of Iran (other than airbombing it), could defeat several EU-armies (assuming they would keep together as the EU bond is stronger than anything the US can give)?

Btw. What about the Nato? The NFR for example has proven itself to be quite a strong force in the last time. Isn't the US not that much involved in the NFR?

I admit I am not at all up to date with all the facts so don't tear me up, but be polite ;) I was just being sceptic ....

mick
 
Israel would most probably stay neutral, as well as Egypt. Saudi Arabia would probably support the US.

I wonder what could possibly Israel gain by fighting a war, that is totally not in its interest. As for Egypt - the whole country's economy is entirely dependant on the EU.

Depends on how the war is perceived. If, for example, it's a war that began due to some economical quarrel then Israel and Egypt will do their best to stay neutral. But then the discussion is pointless and boring. I assume that our hypothetical war must continue until one side surrenders unconditionally. Let's say that each side imagines the other to be the new Nazis or something. It's a battle to the death.

In this case, only countries strong enough like Russia, China and India or those insignificant enough like Nepal or something, will have the luxury of neutrality. All the rest, especially countries like Israel and Egypt who occupy strategic positions and possess strong but not strong enough armies, will have to choose.
 
Hotpoint said:
The Straits of Gibraltar are easily closed to shipping (heck they're so narrow you can do it with artillery)
In fact the Spanish coast around the Strait is full of heavy artillery cannons in bunkers every few kilometers plus missiles silos radars and all that stuff, all aiming to Morocco. You can imagine the great mutual trust between both countries. :mischief:
 
Not having read the whole thread, I just want to ask one question to the "America-wins"-fraction in here: Why do you think that an US-Army that at the moment is said to be tied up in Iraq and not being able to pull off a full invasion of Iran (other than airbombing it), could defeat several EU-armies (assuming they would keep together as the EU bond is stronger than anything the US can give)?

If the US goal in Iraq is to turn the country into a democracy, then you can most definitely say that the US army is tied down there and sustains more casualties than the goal is worth.

But in our scenario, during a total global war, the US goal would be simply to hold the country and keep the oil flowing. The 2-3 deaths a day the US sustains today will become a perfectly acceptable price, even a pretty good one.
 
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