European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

[Craig_Sutter]

I think that the Franks lasted almost half the scenario... the Carolingian Empire, I think, would be considered a Frankish empire, at least until the division of the empire into three parts amongst his sons. I think it was even reunited for a brief period of time after the initial division. That being said, I think that a French Civ with UU and leaders such as Charlemagne ( and others), could be used to fill in for the Franks in scenarios.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Head Serf:

I've done further research as to ship names. Drtad mentioned that the Dromon would be better used as a Byzantine UU. I tend to agree... upon finding further information, I recommend the following name change: Dromon>>Lateen Galley.

The Lateen Galley incorporated new sail technology, although still not ocean worthy, because of low freeboard, the triangular lateen sail allowed more maneuverability than the traditional square rigging used for galleys.

I think Dromon should then be used as a Byzantine UU, replacing Trireme.

One other note. Galleon and Carrack are very much alike... perhaps they should be divided from each other much as Longship/Lateen, Cog/Medieval Galley are... mutually exclusive builds divided between the Atlantic and Mediterranean streams of development. Spain would be the obvious frontier between these two... I'd give it the Galleon, and the Portuguese would be the Southern most nation to get the Carrack (a good Portuguese UU would be the Nao, a Carrack type). The Caravel would still be buildable by nations on both coasts.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I don't think we need worry about map crowding, at least while choosing additional civs... these additional civs would be more for scenario makers to add to their own maps.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Having a broad category plus an individual one should be ok. For instance, having Slavs while still having Poland, Russia, etc. gives room for scenario makers. I want to use the Wends in mine, for instance... lacking a Slav civ, I'll likely use Poland... but if there were a Slav civ it would add to my flexibility in adding very scenario specific civilizations. I certainly don't expect for a Wend civilization to be created, though. Likewise, if we create Venetian and Papal State civs, that should not preclude the inclusion of an Italian States civ.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

To Head Serf:

One final note:

Should you divide Carrack and Galleon Civs as I've recommended, you need to make Medieval Galley upgradeable to Galleon, not Carrack or Caravel. If you don't, then when Medieval Galleys upgrade, it can only be to Caravel, and the Civs will then have no military transport capability.

Sorry about the bother... hopefully, this will be the last of the tinkering.

Thanks.

 

[Drtad]

I also definitely agree with adding Persia, maybe they can encompass the Khwarezmid period as well with Khwarezmian leaders?

 

[Stellan_87]

Which Civilizations have been decided to be on the civ list? And did you need any help ? Perhaps adding text to the Civilopedia?

 

[coko]

I have to wonder what exactly you mean by Italy in terms of a single state because it was just a collection of city state nations mainly under small barons for all of this period, wasn't it?

You could use the idea of the Papal States, or Italy in terms of these small nations being together, or Sicily which had been the major power in southern Italy.

Also in terms of France...wasn't it still quite a divided place around this time? Again with local lords, that while under the rule of one king did as they please (Burgundy, Normans & Franks)?

 

[Craig_Sutter]

True about Italy, but at the scale the scenario map is at, making them one civ makes sense... but for other scenarios, using individual minor Italian States, such as Venice, Genoa, Milan, etc. also makes sense... which is exactly my point. You need overarching civs, and lesser derivative civs to be able to do a wide variety of scenarios. Hence, the inclusion of Poland, Serbia, Russia, for instance, should not preclude a Slavic civilization being in place. Every one of France, Germany, Italy and even Spain was a smattering of seperate petty kingdoms at one time, but for game purposes, we often amalgamate them... we need to for playability. If we include the Kingdoms of Castile and Aragon in the mod (as opposed to a scenario), for instance, as a couple of our civs, that doesn't mean we can't also include Spain as a mod option. Similarly for the Slavs and others.

Just remember, the main mod will have 18 civs that will form its core civs... but there will be possibily a dozen others that will supplement the mod and can be used for scenarios. These should be chosen for maximum flexibitity for scenario makers. We should try, I think, to achieve as much variety as possible, and minimize duplication between civs. For instance, if Norway and Denmark and a Viking civilization will have essentially the same UU's, then there is really no reason to create all three. Rather, give a few choices of leaders and leader heads, and some representative traits for Vikings, and let the scenario maker use the WBS to individualize the civs to his scenario. In my scenario I've 4 Viking civs using pretty much the same characteristics... later, I hope the mod gives a few leader options so they're not identical; however, I expect the UU's to be the same.

That's it for now.

 

[Ambreville]

I think that the Franks lasted almost half the scenario... the Carolingian Empire, I think, would be considered a Frankish empire, at least until the division of the empire into three parts amongst his sons. I think it was even reunited for a brief period of time after the initial division. That being said, I think that a French Civ with UU and leaders such as Charlemagne ( and others), could be used to fill in for the Franks in scenarios.

Although I have not been able to run this scenario, I do have an interest in medieval European history. Your answer above is pretty close. The Franks moved into Roman-controlled Gaul (most of which was later known as France) back in the 5th Century AD -- about a century before this scenario starts. By 800 AD, the Franks held much of Europe under their Emperor's rule, Charlemagne. The empire was eventually divided among heirs, which created Francia (in the west), what would later be known as the German Holy Roman Empire (in the East), and Lotharingia squished in the middle (later cannibalized by its two Frankish rivals). The Franks have never really disappeared. They just came to be known as different countries.

The challenge with this scenario is that it starts in the Dark Ages of Europe, shortly after the fall of the Roman Empire, and ends in the Renaissance, therefore encompassing all of the Middle Ages. The difficulty here is that the makeup of Europe was quite different in the 500's from what would normally be more readily associated with a typical medieval setting of the 1100's or 1300's. You end up with tough choices at the onset -- do you pick CIV's more closely associated with the main political and ethnic powers of traditional middle ages, or do you pick the Dark Age tribes that dominated Europe in the 500's?

It doesn't make much sense mixing them -- for example, if you have Germans and French, then you shouldn't have a separate a Frankish CIV since the Germans and French include the Franks... etc. Same thing for Ostrogoths+Lombards+Romans vs. having just Italians in general. Hope I didn't confuse the whole issue here!

 

[Ambreville]

Also in terms of France...wasn't it still quite a divided place around this time? Again with local lords, that while under the rule of one king did as they please (Burgundy, Normans & Franks)?

Again -- that all depends whether you are talking about the Dark Ages, Middles Ages, or Renaissance periods. They are fundamentally different.

In the Dark Ages in France prior to Charlemagne for example, the Franks held mostly northern lands, north of the Loire River, east and west of the Rhine. South of that, we had essentially remnants of the Roman CIV in Aquitania mixed with Wisigoths, and mostly Ostrogoths in the Southeast.

In the 1100's which is what you seem to be thinking of, there was a King of France who had nominal political power over his vassals (mainly Aquitaine, Champagne, Anjou, Normandy, Burgundy, and Toulouse). Each one of these vassals were much more powerful than their King. However, they did more or less accept the feodal hommage to their King mostly as a way to placate the other rival vassals. It made for a very weak and chaotic monarchy.

In the 1300's, the French monarchy was very much in control of the lands recognized as "French" and the vassals who held them, the French Royal Domaine was also much bigger, although the people's sentiment of being "French" (as opposed to being subjects of the local Duchy or County) really did not come about until after the second Hundred Years War, at the beginning of the Renaissance.

During the late 1400's Renaissance, we're talking about a modern "State" that is administered by professionals in the government, along with people who call and think of themselves as French citizens. There still are nobles, but their powers are much more limited compared to middle ages. These are completely different eras. Obviously some similar development applies to other regions of Europe which is why it gets tough to simulate a long period of time in CIV and still remain somewhat historical.

 

[Ambreville]

Every one of France, Germany, Italy and even Spain was a smattering of seperate petty kingdoms at one time, but for game purposes, we often amalgamate them...

Actually, that's not quite correct. Spain was one of the few regions of the middle ages that had more than one kingdom (Navarra, Aragon, Castille, and later on, Portugal). Most of these eventually combined to become the Kingdom of Spain after the late 1400's "Reconquista".

In France, after the Roman era, there never was more than one king. Ditto in the Holy Roman Empire. The only kingdom I can recall was Bohemia and they came about as a voting member of the Holy Roman Empire later on. The Holy Roman Emperor was not a King, being elected for life, but IIRC also fancied the title of King of the Germans and King of Italy...

Northern Italy was referred to as the Kingdom of Italy but that was not an actual monarchy (more so a political ploy for the Holy Roman Emperor to maintain his rule over that region). Middle Ages northern Italy was mostly made up of City States (oligarchies), along with Venice that was a Republic. We had otherwise the Holy See (a sort of spiritual kingdom based in Rome) and of course the Kingdom of Sicily/Naples founded by rather adventurous Norman-French at the expense of the Moors.

In Britain we're talking mostly about England, Scotland, and Wales as the biggest political powers in the region, all of which had Kings.

 

[Head Serf]

Well, it seems that quite a few people don't understand, but, we do not plan on adding any more civilizations to the current map, and no more than 2 more if we get a larger map. The civilization list is for the MOD, not the scenario. The MOD is different from the SCENARIO. The MOD can be played on random maps or on scenarios made by people. We are trying to figure out which civs to include for the MOD, not the SCENARIO.

 

[Drtad]

I don't think many more civs should be added to the mod. Only a few like the Slavs and the Persians. Leaders can be added to represent specific small states that were of that nationality, and those can be used for user-created scanarios.

 

[jefmart1]

I lost a game where I was engaged in a large war with France (I was the Moors) which I was slowly winning. Since we were the two biggest and baddest countries, I would have been on top and I had the highest score by far. However, Lithuania won because they had been the first to build the African Coast wonder. Currently only one civ can build that wonder.

Once someone builds that then no one else has the chance to win the victory. I assume this was supposed to be like the space race, but it doesn't work out that way.

 

[Drtad]

I do not like the exploration victory either. Anyway, esnaz just made a nice Khazaria mod, complete with a 3D animated LH. I think Khazaria should be added as it was a powerful state that waged wars against the Persians and the Arabs until it was conquered by the Russians.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Couple of things I noticed, very minor...

- Halberdier doesn't have any siege ability... as it is the only melee unit without this, I think it was likely an oversight.
-Maceman doesn't upgrade to anything... is this meant, or ought it to upgrade to Halberdier or even a gunpowder unit
-could camels please be restricted to desert, unless it breaks the game... I randomize my resource placement, and seeing camels in western Europe really bothers me.

In my play testing, I'm finding that there are accute money shortages at certain stages of the game, especially when unit upgrades become available. It may be that the unit costs should be adjusted downward... how do others feel. When using AIAutoplay, during the upgrade periods there is constant destruction of units (it says, due to lack of funds)...maybe the cost differential between the upgrades is too great? With the naval units, they rise in cost at a constant rate, +10 per upgrade level, basically. But the increase in power between units is slighter as well, being basically one point of strenght, and one movement... the land unit strength curve is steeper. That being said, after playtesting, we should look to see if the costs need to be adjusted somewhat.

Going back to more playing.

 

[jefmart1]

I had a further thought on the Printing Press tech... Since one of the first real uses for the printing press was to make Bibles, the tech should grant bonuses related to religion.

Like +1 gold for each religious building of your state religion, or increased spread of religion. Or both.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I think that Compass should also have Education as a prerequisite. This stops civs from making a b-line to the spaceship victory. If having 3 prerequisite techs for Compass bothers you, then make Carrack and Caravel (and later, Galleon) require shipbuilding rather than having shipbuilding be required for the Compass tech.

In addition, I would then add The School of Henry the Navigator as a wonder buildable with Compass... reflecting its Educational prereq, and quite fitting to the tech. Possibily, this would give Nav I to all naval builds, or +1 movement to Naval... or some such. Perhaps some science benefit.

A bit of info about him and his school:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/explorers/page/h/henry.shtml

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Thinking of other wonders, why not Leonardo's Workshop... as a tribute to ghosts of civs past. He was at the tail end of the period covered by the mod, and maybe some unit upgrade benefit would be good near the end of the mod.