European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

[Craig_Sutter]

If the mod starts in 500 AD, some of these religions might be wrong, depending upon what you consider the civs to represent...

England... if its Anglo-Saxons, they're still pagan at this time.
France... if its the Franks, Clovis converted after 500 AD, I think, but close enough.
Germans... if they're considered part of Frankland at this time, possibly Catholic, otherwise, still Pagan (Saxony/thuringia/etc.).
East Europe... largely Pagan at the start.

Although, techinically, at the start of the mod. there is also no Islam, this isn't doable and still maintain some historical acquisition of religion.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

If you give a civ no religion (as opposed to Pagan) at the start, it will convert to the first religion that arrives in one of its cities.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

My recommendations... many will convert from none to another anyhow, and most likely in a historic way... leaves room for some randomness, though, and realistically, for instance, Poland or Russia could have gone either way, Catholic or Orthodox.

England - none
France - Catholic
Spain - Catholic
Italy - Catholic
Germany - none
Vikings - Pagan
Lithuania - pagan
Poland - none
Hungary - none
Byzantines - Orthodoxy
Russia - none
Armenia - Orthodoxy
Turks - Islam
Arabs - Islam
Egypt - Islam
Moors - Islam
Tatars - none or Pagan

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Later, this should be tinkered with once we've got religious spread right, to that the Pagans will eventually convert to a better religion.

 

[Drtad]

West Europe, Franks were Catholic just a few years after 500, so that should have Catholicism at the start. If somebody can do a bit of python for this particular scenario then Islam could appear in Almohad, Egyptian Arab, and Turkish cities at an accurate time, but if not I support just giving it to them at the start. East Europe was not heavily pagan, North Europe was heavily pagan. I thought that many northern Germans, Scandinavians, Tatars, and Romano-British, and Russian peoples were pagan, but East Europe at the start, East Roman Empire, Armenia, Georgia, etc. were all very strongly Orthodox. The first war in the name of Christianity (to protect themselves) was fought in Armenia in 451, Battle of Vartanantz where the Persian Emperor Yazdegerd II tried to assimilate the Armenians by converting them from Orthodox Christianity (technically nonexistant at the time) to Zoroastrianism. Vartan Mamikonians defense at the plains of Avarayr made the Persians think twice about their plans. Anyway, coming back from my tangent, East Europe/Asia Minor was a very pious place. Unless you mean Hungary and Romania of course.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Are Armenia, etc. European? Or Asian. Anyhow, by East Europe, I meant Poland, Hungary, Russia, etc.

Ideally, all the people who kept to Paganism for some time after AD 500 should start out as Pagan, not none. Then with religious spread, they should all eventually convert.

At some point in the future, religious spread and missionaries will have to be examined in more detail. In my scenario, I have Pagans regularly converting to christianity, however, that only seems to be when they are conquering christian lands (this could be historical as well). However, barring conquest, religion tends to spread to cities with no religion... not to those with one in place. So nations tend to stick to a religion once they've acquired it... good for Chrisitian or Moslem civs, but not for Pagan ones who tend not to convert to the more developed religions. I almost never, in the mod, have seen a city with two religions. This is needed if the Pagans are eventually to change religions. I've seen this in the unmodded games, numerous times though.

An additional thought... starting a civ with a religion is no guarentee it will maintain that. The first settler will found it's city, but that city will not have a religion despite the civ having a state religion. The civ will still convert to the first religion to actually appear in one of its cities.

The only way to fight this, I've found, is to have the first city founded at start, and put the religion in place... if you do this, you do not even need to specify a state religion as the civ will quickly convert to that religion.

One more thought... I suppose Germany should start Pagan... Charlemagne forced conversion around 800 ad or so... well into the mod.

 

[Drtad]

Are Armenia, etc. European? Or Asian. Anyhow, by East Europe, I meant Poland, Hungary, Russia, etc.

Ideally, all the people who kept to Paganism for some time after AD 500 should start out as Pagan, not none. Then with religious spread, they should all eventually convert.

At some point in the future, religious spread and missionaries will have to be examined in more detail. In my scenario, I have Pagans regularly converting to christianity, however, that only seems to be when they are conquering christian lands (this could be historical as well). However, barring conquest, religion tends to spread to cities with no religion... not to those with one in place. So nations tend to stick to a religion once they've acquired it... good for Chrisitian or Moslem civs, but not for Pagan ones who tend not to convert to the more developed religions. I almost never, in the mod, have seen a city with two religions. This is needed if the Pagans are eventually to change religions. I've seen this in the unmodded games, numerous times though.

An additional thought... starting a civ with a religion is no guarentee it will maintain that. The first settler will found it's city, but that city will not have a religion despite the civ having a state religion. The civ will still convert to the first religion to actually appear in one of its cities.

The only way to fight this, I've found, is to have the first city founded at start, and put the religion in place... if you do this, you do not even need to specify a state religion as the civ will quickly convert to that religion.

One more thought... I suppose Germany should start Pagan... Charlemagne forced conversion around 800 ad or so... well into the mod.

To counter the fact that it won't maintain the state religion, all the civs could start with the religion already in place, and an additionalt settler, like Byzantium.

 

[DrewTate]

the first thing that should be done is getting new leaderheads i think. good mod though.

 

[Head Serf]

Actually, I was planning on starting every civ with a missionary which they would spread to one of their cities upon building it. I have to check to make sure this works, but it should.

 

[Head Serf]

The map is basically ready, I'll release it tomorrow.

EDIT: I guess I was wrong, it's ready now. If you want a copy, just say so and I'll send you the PM with the link.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Just did a quick view of the map... not too many comments, yet, but a couple of things.

-I think that there needs to be some marsh terrain added, unless I'm mistaken. I can think of a few areas... pripet marshes, areas north of the Caspian, the coast of Friesia (Holland, Belgium), some areas in eastern Germany coast along the Baltic, and the marsh land in England east of Northhampton (if you know where that is). Just off the top of my head.

Also, I'd consider adding the Shetlands and/or Faroes (not certain they're in the area of the map)... you've added other smaller islands, I believe.

That's all for now, more later. Map seems good, otherwise, although for some reason, the Moors ended up Catholic despite using their missionary... should they get two?

 

[knigh+]

Mecca's not on the map.

But could be placed on the Arabian peninsula, at the SE corner of the map, which would be a few hundred km from its actual location. I think shifting a city a little north is a smaller deviation from history, when compared to picking another city quasi-randomly to act in its stead.

Besides, Damascus' location is too vulnerable.

 

[Drtad]

I suppose at that edge there could be a city called "To Mecca." I don't see a problem with that. Damascus is a very vulnerable area.

 

[Head Serf]

Well, I'm getting closer and closer to being done all the time. I'm gonna start adding UUs now. Here's the list so far:

Civ UU What makes it better
Arabia: Camel Archer : Knight that starts with Desert Warrior promo, +1 str
Vikings: Drakkar : Longboat with ocean ability, starts with Navigation 1 promo
Byzantines: Dromon : Lateen Galley with +1 str and Navigation 1 promo
Poland: Heavy Hussar : Heavy Cavalry with +2 str and lessened cost
England: Longbowmen : Composite Archer with +25% vs mounted and +50% vs melee
Armenia: Nakharar : Vassal w/ ability to defend, as in fortify, lessened cost
Hungary: Magyarok Horseman : Horse Archer with +1 str, lessened cost
Turks: Janissary : Arquebusier with lessened cost, +25% city attack
Egypt: Mamluk Cavalry : Knight with +3 str

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Should Drakhrr be Drakarr? I googled the former, and got nothing...

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Oops, I meant Drakkar.

 

[Head Serf]

Yea, I forgot how to spell it. Thank you!

 

[Drtad]

Well, I'm getting closer and closer to being done all the time. I'm gonna start adding UUs now. Here's the list so far:

Civ UU What makes it better
Arabia: Camel Archer : Knight that starts with Desert Warrior promo, +1 str
Vikings: Drakkar : Longboat with ocean ability, starts with Navigation 1 promo
Byzantines: Dromon : Lateen Galley with +1 str and Navigation 1 promo
Poland: Heavy Hussar : Heavy Cavalry with +2 str and lessened cost
England: Longbowmen : Composite Archer with +25% vs mounted and +50% vs melee
Armenia: Nakharar : Vassal w/ ability to defend, as in fortify, lessened cost
Hungary: Magyarok Horseman : Horse Archer with +1 str, lessened cost
Turks: Janissary : Arquebusier with lessened cost, +25% city attack
Egypt: Mamluk Cavalry : Knight with +3 str

Camel archer seems fine. For the Vikings, the Drakkar seems nice. Dromon is also okay. Heavy Hussar needs to be toned down a bit. Longbowman is fine. Nakharar needs not a defense promotion, but maybe a promotion against other cavalry, increased strength, and increased cost, you couldn't find Armenian Nakharar nobles everywhere. I like the Hungarian UU. The Mamluk Cavalry should be toned down, maybe +2 strength only? Jannisary seems appropriate for its historical usage. Also, I think the Byzantines should get the Firegalley, since it was the firegalley that annihilated Arab fleets in the Sea of Marmara when they tried to take Constantinople, but I suppose Dromons could work as well.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I've no really nothing much to add about your choices of UU. They seem fine...

Perhaps Dromon should replace Trireme rather than Lateen Galley. They seemed to be more of a warship rather than a transport. Maybe they could still have transport ability, though.

The Janissaries were well known for discipline and training... perhaps starting with discipline I promotion and not decreasing the cost would be more appropriate.

 

[Head Serf]

Some more UU ideas:
Scotland : Highlander : Swordsman with highlander promotion and reduced cost
Crusaders : Knight of the Order : Foot Knight with +50% city attack
Mongols : Keshik : Light Cavalry, no movement cost over hills and forest, starts with Feint promo
Khazars : Tarkhan : Vassal with +50% attacking spearmen, increased cost?
Persia : Daylami : Swordsman with +50% city attack, +25% city defense, -1 strength
Late Roman Empire : Foederati : Warrior with +1 str, -50% city attack, +50% city defense

Ok, here are the civilizations we need UU ideas for:
Saxony
Welsh
Normans
Ireland
France
Germany
Goths
Spain
Portugal
Italian States
Venice
Papal States
Lithuania
Russia
Slavs
Moors
Tatars
Bulgars