[R&F] Ever have a game that seems unwinnable?

[Unconquered Sun]

One thing thats been true in every civ game is you can always kill your way out of a box. If you get samdwiched like that just go full on warpath. You can always catch back up in science later. Idk when deity A.i launches space ships but its past turn 280 at least.

My standard go-to when I don't know where I am in a strategy game is to go to war v the AIs and see what happens. Pressure them, see if they crack, see if they push back.

CIV: Warlords (and to an extent vanilla which was similar to Warlords if slightly more forgiving) Deity was an exception though. It was plausible to overrun a neighbor or two and still lose while trying to shift gears from early conquest to lategame economy, that's how narrow opportunity windows were and how relentless the AI was in achieving an early victory condition.

 

[EditorRex]

I play on Diety, win pretty much every game, and was previously of the opinion that no game was unwinnable.

I recently played an R&F game as the Dutch that changed this opinion. Gilgamesh's capital was 8 hexes away and he had nowhere to expand but towards me (his capital on a peninsula).

He came at me with 2 war carts and 4 warriors. I lost the game (lost my capital, I did not rage quit) by turn 22 (on quick speed settings). I do not see how it could be avoided.

(On second thought, I suppose I could have just taken my warrior and original settler and gone for a long trek away from Gilgamesh actually, but that would have been risky and difficult to overcome)

I'm curious based on what you have said in this last part. How would you have known to do that? Or are you talking about saving, exploring and reloading? If so, are you just joking about an extreme example or is this a routine part of your gameplay strategy that's helpful in winning on Deity?

 

[EditorRex]

After the new update, it seems that AIs are more likely to rush player very early. If you are close enough to an AI, you have a big chance of losing a deity game without save/load.

I've noticed this specifically with Gilgamesh, even on Immortal. Or at least with effective rushing. I hate those carts.

 

[Esperr]

I'm curious based on what you have said in this last part. How would you have known to do that? Or are you talking about saving, exploring and reloading? If so, are you just joking about an extreme example or is this a routine part of your gameplay strategy that's helpful in winning on Deity?

Well if he was 8 tiles away(im pretty sure 10 is the minimum), you can use the settler lens to spot something if you don't settle your first turn. I end up not SIP in about half of my games. But you still wouldn't know its gil or even an A.I, it could just be a city state.

 

[EditorRex]

Well if he was 8 tiles away(im pretty sure 10 is the minimum), you can use the settler lens to spot something if you don't settle your first turn. I end up not SIP in about half of my games. But you still wouldn't know its gil or even an A.I, it could just be a city state.

It's pretty rare in my games to spot an AI/CS with the settler lens as early as your second turn and not unusual to not find anyone for several turns later, even with aggressive exploration by your starting unit, utilizing the settler lens. You surely don't wait too many turns to settle do you? I realize the idea of going far away and settling in the game you described was hypothetical. But the lack of knowledge of your surroundings is a big part of the game and there's no way rationally anyone would have taken the step of settling so far away, unless they reloaded from a save. In other words, except for cheating, there's no reasonable way anyone would have avoided this defeat.

 

[Esperr]

It's pretty rare in my games to spot an AI/CS with the settler lens as early as your second turn and not unusual to not find anyone for several turns later, even with aggressive exploration by your starting unit, utilizing the settler lens. You surely don't wait too many turns to settle do you? I realize the idea of going far away and settling in the game you described was hypothetical. But the lack of knowledge of your surroundings is a big part of the game and there's no way rationally anyone would have taken the step of settling so far away, unless they reloaded from a save. In other words, except for cheating, there's no reasonable way anyone would have avoided this defeat.

Sometimes you don't settle until turn 3, which with your warrior movement you can often spot a close "something". I also was just giving a possible explanation for how you can spot a close A.I early, but either way Im pretty sure with R and F you almost always spawn within ten tiles of an A.I. Its really annoying actually.

 

[EditorRex]

Sometimes you don't settle until turn 3, which with your warrior movement you can often spot a close "something". I also was just giving a possible explanation for how you can spot a close A.I early, but either way Im pretty sure with R and F you almost always spawn within ten tiles of an A.I. Its really annoying actually.

I agree. Although oddly enough, I had a lousy start R&F Emperor game with on a standard continents map last night in which I was near several CS, but never found any AI. I misplayed against an early Barb attack and decided to quit that one, so I never found out where they were. Maybe just outside my explored area. I had an early Vanilla start on a standard continents map in which I was alone with one CS on an island about 5 hexes from a major continent. I was well into the Medieval period before I met any AI in that game. That sort of map hasn't come up again, so maybe it was something they tweaked in one of the Vanilla patches. Funny thing after that CS-heavy game last night, I started a new game with the same settings and was surrounded by three AI with not a CS in sight. (Did eventually meet one, but not close by). Most Civ VI maps seems balance out nearby AI and CS better, in my experience, unless this is something they changed in one of the recent patches.

Also, I too have sometimes settled 3 or more turns into the game, though usually for water and resource reasons, so I understand where you are coming from there. Usually I explore with the settle lens early in the hope of meeting CS first, getting the CS-meetings Inspiration and getting the AI-meetings inspiration, as well now as the R&F event scores for these meetings. I guess if I met someone and haven't settled yet, I might consider moving away from them.

 

[Draco84]

I recently played an R&F game as the Dutch that changed this opinion. Gilgamesh's capital was 8 hexes away and he had nowhere to expand but towards me (his capital on a peninsula).

You could have befriended Gilgamesh, would have bought you enough time to defend yourself. That's my go-to Strat with him (deity) as I'm never in a position to take him out in the ancient era.

 

[Civ_Gumby]

You could have befriended Gilgamesh, would have bought you enough time to defend yourself. That's my go-to Strat with him (deity) as I'm never in a position to take him out in the ancient era.

Usually you get a -5-8 modifier right off the bat good luck becoming friends with him after that.

 

[Draco84]

Gilgamesh will always be your friend if you offer immediately, at least that is my experience.

Likely due to his agenda.

 

[Builderphile]

Interesting, I certainly didn't think of offering friendship right away. My first thought was that I didn't want to foreclose the possibility of me invading him in the near future, given that he was so close.

I figured I wouldn't have any problem repelling an early invasion, as I usually don't.

 

[EditorRex]

I have an R&F emperor game under way right now with Japan, Sumeria and Russia forming an arc around me (Rome) from SW to NE on the same continent. I have (against my usual nature) played peacefully early and Gilgamesh friended me a few turns ago, early in the Classical era and seems on good terms with the other AI in the area. I have also had games where he DOW'ed me early with no provocation that I was aware of, but those were before the March patch. Any chance they tweaked his personality coding a bit?

 

[Trengilly]

Yep Gilgamesh will always accept a declaration of friendship if you make it on the turn you meet him. If you don't do it right away - then all bets are off. The cool thing about Gilgamesh is once you do the initial declaration of friendship you have a friend/ally/trading partner for the rest of the game. His bonus modifiers toward friends along with the usual modifiers for declared friends/allies means you have to go out of your way to piss him off enough to drop you.

Have multiple AI civs that are likely to gang up on you? Beat them to the punch!! and see if you can get one of them to agree to a joint with with you against the other. You can often buildup a real friendship with your war partner.

Unwinnable? I don't know but a long time ago I have a vanilla game on island plates that started me on a tundra and ice island that only had room for my capital city (and of course a barb spawn in the ice). By the time I teched up to sail a settler somewhere I was boxed in by AI civs on nearby islands. I guess if I planned better I could have tried to rush boats and take AI cities. But my island was really useless and it was on immortal so the AI had walls up by the time I got out there. I quit and moved on to other things.

 

[Victoria]

Been killed quite a few times on deity but I do not bother with replays.
Often it’s been down to taking risks rather than playing safe. It’s a question of what you consider a good player.
Someone who gets a fast victory may take more risks at the beginning.
I would say yes, its harder now and I have certainly had some that are harder than others. Ironically I survive the early game better with victoria than gorgo. Gorgo's central location makes it a challenge

 

[kb27787]

Been killed quite a few times on deity but I do not bother with replays.
Often it’s been down to taking risks rather than playing safe. It’s a question of what you consider a good player.
Someone who gets a fast victory may take more risks at the beginning.
I would say yes, its harder now and I have certainly had some that are harder than others. Ironically I survive the early game better with victoria than gorgo. Gorgo's central location makes it a challenge

I love isolated starts... Civs that start on the edge are certainly safer to play (if you dont mind the occasional tundra starts). I like Russia or Australia a lot due to this. (AU also has the double production thing as insurance backup)
Gorgo has nothing going for her super early game except for faster agoge from barb kills.

 

[Victoria]

Gorgo has nothing going for her super early game except for faster agoge

Wildcard
And a couple of hoplites can be good earlier sword substitutes with +4 era
Just faster agoge? Nothing else?

 

[kb27787]

Wildcard
And a couple of hoplites can be good earlier sword substitutes with +4 era
Just faster agoge? Nothing else?

That extra wild card is, what, either one extra hammer, or 1g1f? Of course by super early, we are talking about t10-15ish or so at most (when the initial 5 warrior rush insta-kills you), are we not? Hoplites are not available then unless you get blue CS... Or have some tea, natural wonders...

 

[Victoria]

That extra wild card is, what, either one extra hammer, or 1g1f? Of course by super early, we are talking about t10-15ish or so at most (when the initial 5 warrior rush insta-kills you), are we not? Hoplites are not available then unless you get blue CS... Or have some tea, natural wonders...

Yeah OK super early no beyond sharing agoge with the barb combat advantage, if you are talking stemming early rushes what she does for me is make me build a slinger first, just a mentality change.

 

[regeneration64]

I'm currently on T150 on an emporer, standard speed, large continents hotseat map with Korea, Spain and Holland on the same continent as us (we are England and The Cree).

We both had good starts and planned to go with a domination victory depending how things went.

From first finding Korea, who were 15 tiles away from my capital across rough terrain, mountains and rivers, they had around 4-5 times more science than either of us and looked on course to win a science victory by T200.

An early archer rush took care of my neighbour, Holland, who were blocking the route to Korea.

We planned to utilise an early Knight rush to put a stop to Korea's science behemoth before they built too many walls.

By the time we were ready to go for Gyeongju, Korea had 6 cities and was turning out 150 beakers per turn and had got a lot of hwachas and knights. They were in the industrial era by around T110. It seemed like the planned Knight rush might be a suicide run as we were already too late.

They actually declared war on us first using hwachas and knights. We let them come and popped them off one by one using crossbowen and knights from within our own frontline cities.

We then launched a massive counterattack using around 15 knights and battering rams.

We've eliminated almost all of her units and taken 4 cities taking minimal losses and the war now seems won.

I've played a lot of Civ but never quite had a game where the AI was so far ahead in science that they were on course to win a science victory by around T200. Those hwachas are super strong in the early renaissance era and Korea's science generating capacity is insane. I think the only thing stopping this game being unwinnable was the fact that she was on the same continent.

 

[Captain Queeg]

I had a standard-continents start recently where I was hemmed in between a mountain range and the coast. My entire world would have been limited to 7 tiles (one city) until settler embarkation - at least 40 turns? That seemed unwinnable (on Immortal) to me ...