Exercise: Aggressive Early Warring & No Cottages with Shaka

[Gwaja]

I know that I am still working on my Cathy game, but I am at a point in that game where I want to make a careful decision as to how to proceed. I am also taking some time studying the saves provided by people who participated in that game.

In the meantime, I wanted to try a game where I take myself away from being peaceful to a very aggressive approach from the beginning. This means warring and eliminating/vassaling AIs as early as possible.

And what better leader to do such a thing other than:

Spoiler :

Game Settings:

Spoiler :

Starting Position:

Spoiler :

You know you want to stay coastal in this case, so the option is either to settle in place or settle 1S. Settling in place gives you 1 more hill to work with, whereas 1S gives me an irrigated rice as well as losing a turn.

Goal is to:

1. Expand aggressively.
2. Start warring on the neighbors as soon as possible. No waiting until muskets, cannons, rifles, cavalry, etc.
3. No cottages except for a city designated as a Bureaucracy capital until Emancipation.
(Allowing nearby cities to help work the cottages for the Bureaucracy capital is okay)

I have to admit, I am a cottage lover. But I've read posts from many players here who manage to get by just fine without cottaging. So I want to try it for myself and learn how to play a cottage-free game.

Anybody interested in trying this out with me?

 

[vicawoo]

There's no need to get cottages before an bronze era rush. But after you conquer a few cities, there is no way you can pay for the maintenance without commerce.

See madscientist's manifest destiny or whatever it was called American RPC.

 

[Soirana]

There's no need to get cottages before an bronze era rush. But after you conquer a few cities, there is no way you can pay for the maintenance without commerce.

See madscientist's manifest destiny or whatever it was called American RPC.

just make to alpha on conquest money and build research. No need for pesky cottages. Did that a bunch of times.

 

[Mylene]

SIP, Rice is not worth loosing forests and hills.
I don't like the cottage rule, part of war mongering always also has to be to recover economy and get techs that allow better troops, so i don't see the point in that swy

 

[Gwaja]

I actually read a few game write ups from a couple of years back... someone attempting to play a game with absolutely no cottages whatsoever on Emperor and Immortal... and he actually won both games quite handily too. I am not sure if there have been any changes in game mechanics to make this a lot more difficult to pull off.

The reasoning behind the cottage rule was to try to force myself to not rely on cottages. What's a good rule to make and follow then for cottages, if the current rule is too restrictive?

@Mylene:

Moving 1S seems to make a lot sense in that you will get 3 5-food tiles after Sailing, as well as another 4-food tile. Instant GP farm. Is losing out on one hill tile that bad? Though as you mention, you do lose 3 forest tiles I believe.

 

[lymond]

Looks like you have horses in the BFC, but it would be nice if it were copper. Wet rice is nice, but I like SIP if you are warring early.

 

[Gwaja]

Looks like you have horses in the BFC, but it would be nice if it were copper. Wet rice is nice, but I like SIP if you are warring early.

How would you know about the horse? Is there a specific way that you can see this?

Wow...if both you AND Mylene are saying the same thing about SIP, then SIP it must be.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

How would you know about the horse? Is there a specific way that you can see this?

Yeah, I'd like to know, too. Is it because there is a suspiciously-unForested Plains square instead of a Grassland square?

Is it maybe because we already have an Animal Husbandry Resource (Cow)?

Or is it because you played through until learning Animal Husbandry and are sharing spoiler info?

Wow...if both you AND Mylene are saying the same thing about SIP, then SIP it must be.

I would say... at LEAST move the Scout before deciding! Possible directions are:
1. S + S, to see if there are further Coastal seafood Resources to pair up with the Rice for a second City
2. S + SW, to see if there are other inland Resources to pair up with the Rice for a second City
3. N + NE, to see if you'd be creating a potential "failure Fish" by settling in-place and blocking the usage of another seafood Resource to the NE (i.e. if there is a Fish Resouce to the NE + E + E of the Settler's initial location)

Unless your Scout finds a compelling reason to move the Settler, I'd tend to agree with wanting that third Hills square for the capital... although if we can somehow 100% for certain know that there is a Plains Horse 1N of the Settler using some non-spoilerish technique, then this square, too, would "count" as a Hills-based square, due to its large number of Hammers, giving you the option of grabbing the Rice and still having 3 decent production-based squares (although having one more such production-based square rarely hurts for a capital if you have the Food to feed it--which we do by settling in-place).


I think that it would be fun to try and play with ZERO Cottages. Normally, one can use the Financial Trait, Gems Resources, Gold Resources, Rivers, etc, as crutches to replace the missing Commerce from Cottages, but it is also feasible to simply burn and pillage a ton of AI Cities and still play a Cottage-free game. It's going to be a lot tougher without these additional Resource-based and River-based Commerce sources, but it's still a definite possibility if the game is at your regular difficulty level or lower and given that we have a really great PILLAGING-based Unique Unit, hint, hint.

If you can't have your Cottages, neither should the AIs...

 

[lymond]

Dhoom - Why would you think I would mention a possible strat resources after actually opening the save, which I have not? I would never do something like that. I said it might be horses oreven copper/iron. Horse seemed logical. Predicting strat resources is not that uncommon and I've see you do it as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong.

 

[A_Hamster]

I actually read a few game write ups from a couple of years back... someone attempting to play a game with absolutely no cottages whatsoever on Emperor and Immortal... and he actually won both games quite handily too. I am not sure if there have been any changes in game mechanics to make this a lot more difficult to pull off.

The reasoning behind the cottage rule was to try to force myself to not rely on cottages. What's a good rule to make and follow then for cottages, if the current rule is too restrictive?

How about no cottages unless nothing else can be built there? (And you can keep captured cottages etc.) That was a rule I used in a recent Sumerian game. There were unforested grasslands squares which would never be irrigated (except by Biology) so I relaxed the original "No Cottages" rule I had intended to use. I know I could have put Workshops in those tiles instead, but they aren't worthwhile into later in the game or with SP, and playing with undeveloped tiles until mid-late game seemed too extreme a handicap.

BTW, what is the level of the save? I'm at work and can't open open or download it.

 

[Gwaja]

Dhoom - Why would you think I would mention a possible strat resources after actually opening the save, which I have not? I would never do something like that. I said it might be horses oreven copper/iron. Horse seemed logical. Predicting strat resources is not that uncommon and I've see you do it as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong.

You know... I don't even know what to even look for when predicting the possibility of strategic resources popping in the BFC. It's like I am in a complete darkness. ^_^ As for Dhoom's comment, I don't think he meant it in a bad way.

How about no cottages unless nothing else can be built there? (And you can keep captured cottages etc.) That was a rule I used in a recent Sumerian game. There were unforested grasslands squares which would never be irrigated (except by Biology) so I relaxed the original "No Cottages" rule I had intended to use. I know I could have put Workshops in those tiles instead, but they aren't worthwhile into later in the game or with SP, and playing with undeveloped tiles until mid-late game seemed too extreme a handicap.

BTW, what is the level of the save? I'm at work and can't open open or download it.

Now when you say there is nothing else can be built there, I am assuming something like flat tiles that are not river side before you can plant workshops or before Civil Service when you can chain irrigate. Non river side cottages for non financial leader is kinda... I don't know. And workshops are kinda terrible too until you get Caste System and at least to Guilds.

But at any rate, you are probably right though. I think I will keep myself from being restricted too much and be a little flexible, with the mindset that I will not be relying on cottages in this game.

Settings are Big & Small, Standard Size Map, and Normal Speed on Emperor.

 

[michmbk]

How would you know about the horse? Is there a specific way that you can see this?

Wow...if both you AND Mylene are saying the same thing about SIP, then SIP it must be.

You have a plains hill that's unforested in the middle of a whole bunch of forests. Almost certainly a strategic resource. My bet is on horses too - just based on what I've seen, copper and iron in my games tend to either be on grassland or on hills. Not 100% by any stretch, but here's another bet on horses.

SIP will be a strong production city - if we're right about the strategic resource, then you're set up beautifully for a rush.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Dhoom - Why would you think I would mention a possible strat resources after actually opening the save, which I have not?

My apologies. I did not mean to imply anything about your moral character. I was simply trying to come up with an exhaustive list of possibilities for how one might know where a Resource was located.

I understood your initial statement to be a statement of fact for there being a Horse Resource there and that you wished it to be Copper instead (which could have been accidentally spoiled, I was not trying to say that you would do so intentionally), but that is my misinterpretation of your message, so I am sorry for any offense that I caused.

Predicting strat resources is not that uncommon and I've see you do it as well.

Indeed, I do do so, but I'm only right about 10% of the time. Most of the time I'm just making random shot-in-the-dark guesses!

Horse seemed logical.

I am still curious as to what makes you think that the Resource, assuming that there is one there, is Horse. I, for one, would like to improve my own guessing average, and any tips for Resource-guessing would be appreciated!

The lack of trees definitely points towards there being some kind a Resource there, but why Horse? Is it because of either of the first two reasons that I previously mentioned (the fact that it is a Plains square or that we also have a Cow)? Is it becase Shaka often gets a Horse Resource assigned to him? Is it because the square is not a Hills square and thus Horse is a possible choice whereas Horse on a Hills square doesn't (that I have seen, anyway) happen? Maybe some other reason?

Or was it more like one of those "confident guesses" that I make all of the time, with little evidence to support the reasoning (again, like most of my guesses!)?

 

[Gwaja]

Since there was no logical reason to move the scout north, I moved him 1S--> 1SW to reveal some more land to the south:

Spoiler :

Jungle is right on our doorstep. In my first online game as Wang, I made a tactical mistake by trying to box the AIs in, settling into the jungle. Unless I see gems or maybe even jumbos in the jungle that I cannot seem to claim from other places, I would like to avoid going into the jungle.

The land to the west of the scout to claim wet rice and banana, as well as the dye could work later for a good city.

It looks like settling in place is indeed a way to go here.

After I settle in place, Animal Husbandry seems like a no brainer for the 1st tech, as we have both the prerequisite for it. After that, would you say going for Fishing and building a couple of workboats make sense? If I do that though, without Mining and Bronze Working, the worker will have very little to do. Perhaps going Mining --> Bronze Working --> Fishing may make more sense?

I will get started sometime today, hopefully after a bit more feedback.

 

[lymond]

Oh...my statement could have been worded better for sure. I did not mean to aver with certainty that horse or a strat resource was there. I should have said "there might be horse". I based that obviously on the "suspicious lack of forest on 1 tile" and my assumption that a flat plains tile generally turns up horses in such cases at greater odds over copper/iron. Conversely, copper/iron has much greater odds than horses on an unforested plains hill . The cows helped too. Of course, the tile may just be the future recipient of a workshop.

Anyway, your vile besmirchment of a my character has been completely forgiven

 

[west45]

Played until T28

Spoiler :

I rarely play shaka, but it is always a good time playing him. UB+trait combo is amazing, and expansive is always useful. Ag as a starting tech is nice, hunting not so much (though for this cap it's ok for the AH bonus).

Start is kind of awkard, I went fishing-BW and built a worker until fishing was in. WB on the plains hill, worked clams once improved, timed worker to finish same time as BW then started another WB. I'm not sure if 2 wb is best here, but I think it will work out well due to the commerce.


Met Giggles and Boudi, giggles is pretty close.

Of course we don't have copper anywhere nearby. There are some jumbos though. That plains tile better be horses, I really don't like having to tech archery.

The marble is tempting for some oracle (metal casting?), but that town will be useless for a while.

 

[A_Hamster]

Now when you say there is nothing else can be built there, I am assuming something like flat tiles that are not river side before you can plant workshops or before Civil Service when you can chain irrigate. Non river side cottages for non financial leader is kinda... I don't know. And workshops are kinda terrible too until you get Caste System and at least to Guilds.

That's about right, although I kept non-river grassland flats tiles undeveloped until I got CS.

Yes, non river side cottages for non financial leaders are not optimum, but whatelse are you going to do with them? Waiting for Biology is too much of a restriction.

Settings are Big & Small, Standard Size Map, and Normal Speed on Emperor.

Thanks. Too high a skill level for me, but I can now just read the spoilers and see what I can learn.

 

[Gwaja]

Okay, here goes nothing:

-----

To 1920 BC:

Spoiler :

I decided to go after Fishing, while banking towards a worker before switching to a workboat.

I kept exploring with my scout along the east coast to the south, to see just how big this landmass really is. If anything, there's gotta be someone down there. And what do ya know... soon I met someone who has the same mindset as me in terms of being... well... aggressive. ^_^

Spoiler :

This is good. Someone else that can cause some havoc while I do my thing on the side. Also, I know where her capital is, which is good. I will keep an eye on her.

Fishing was done, so I switched production to workboat, working the 3 plains hill tile to get it out faster.

Since Boudica seemed to be on a southern peninsula of sort, I decided to shift my exploration west of her, following something of another coastline. And I was pleased to see find another leader right in the vicinity of Boudica that could hate each other's guts from the start:

Spoiler :

Great stuff. Thank god it is not Julius. One of the highest peace weights against one of the highest warmongers. If they adopt different religion, even better! And once again, Auggie is very far away from me as well, so no rush here either.

Now as the landmass seemed a bit open to the west of Rome, I figured I will keep moving west. Normally I don't scout like this, but I wanted to utilize the speed of a scout before barbarians start showing up. And soon I meet another leader whom I really cherish to play as a human, and almost never shows up as my rival:

Spoiler :

Asoka is, no surprise, founder of Buddhism. So I guess this means I will probably have someone else who is very religious minded... gotta find the founder of Hinduism.

Continuing west... as my first workboat popped in Ulundi, I meet another leader, again, one of my favorite to play against, and usually a welcome sight to see as a neighbor. And he already has a worst enemy:

Spoiler :

Hammy returns once again, also having been in my Cathy game which is still going on the side. Despite being aggressive as his trait, his personality isn't, which is interesting. I know that in Civ 1 he was one of those ultra peaceful ones: Friendly, Civilized, and Perfectionist. Ah well enough with the boring history.

In the meantime, I decided to go for another workboat.

Wow this landmass is big. Lots of open space very far from us. I find Asoka's capital in the process, which is a bit west of Rome. Also right when I saw the Indian borders, I meet another leader whom I regard as the easiest leader to play as, with combo traits, as well as great uniques. And this guy just happens to be the founder of Hinduism:

Spoiler :

Okay, he is really far away. I think it's gonna take some time for these religions to spread to me and Boudica, unless Judaism gets mixed into the picture. So we have one super aggressive neighbor and the rest not much so.

Now lymond... I don't know how but you are genius. I mean... seriously. Look at this!

Spoiler :

Now I don't have to be desperate to look for metals. Since this map looks very big, barbarians are going to be problematic. Oh well... some free exp won't hurt. ^_^

After Animal Husbandry popped, I went for Mining and Bronze Working.

A panther attack severely hurt my scout, so exploration was temporarily put to a hault.

A few turns pass by on the way to Bronze Working, and this time, it's the AI's turn to find us first. And this is not someone I wanted to see:

Spoiler :

Based on the location of these AIs, it is very high likely that he is the closest neighbor to us. Which sucks big time. Not only is this guy a pain in the butt with his protective archers, he is also creative, and has a very good unique unit to go on top of that. I hope he doesn't build his cities on hills.

The tech path was the usual safe one, grabbing all the worker techs and then to 1 turn to Pottery. Also I built 2 workers after the initial 2 workboats, and the first settler popping in 1 turn as well.

In the meantime, I find the location of Hammy and Giggles, who is indeed the closest neighbor. I hate that!

I am probably gonna go after Writing --> Aesthetics, then start backfilling some techs as well as trade for Alphabet and Iron Working by putting a turn or two of research into them. As for the placement of my cities:

Some maps:

Spoiler :

I need a bit of advice on where to settle for my 2nd city. I am thinking either the clam/cow site with possibly including the incense or not... OR the rice/banana/dye/marble site to the south.

If we were to go after someone, UNFORTUNATELY, it has to be Giggles.

Interesting note about the map:

Copper, as far as I can see for now, is very very far. Marble is close enough which is nice for building stuff like National Epic and Great Library. Also, I notice those juicy jumbos in the middle of the jungle. That area is going to be contested for sure... great land once the jungle is clear... and that is the only jumbos that I can see on the map right now that is closest for me to reach. With Giggles as the closest neighbor, I am thinking it may be to my best interest to grab those jumbos for myself.

Another note to myself:

Getting my 2nd city has been slow, I admit. It was the awkward situation where I had to go for Fishing and crank out workboats. I also built 2 workers before putting out my 1st settler. Something to think about, and possibly be criticized.

Also, chariot rush seems definitely out of the question.

 

[Jester Fool]

I personally would claim the jumbos with the second city. I would try rushing w/ phants/cats. Pretty awkward start.

 

[west45]

Up to T79 / 900BC.

Spoiler :

Popped a goldmine in city #2, this is almost as bad as random event but I will go with it.

Teching HBR, going to go after giggles. Since we don't have any mongols here, HBR is also great trade bait. I can probably get monarchy and alphabet out of it. I plan on bulbing maths with my first GS, to make use of the forests.

I need to get alot more workers out to start pre chop, among other things.