Exporting and Importing Food In Between Cities

[therunner57]

I was thinking what if you could take some of the food surplus from one city, and then export the food to another? In real life a lot of the food we eat travels thousands of miles, so why not in Civ 5? If you have a smaller city with inadequate food tiles, you would be able to speed up it's growth by taking from the surplus of other cities. Maybe you could even exchange food among different civs? I think it's an interesting idea, and opens up a lot of possibilities. I am sure there are lot of things to consider, such as spoilage etc., but I just wanted to throw it out there.

 

[imperiex1]

Sure, that's a great idea. You could have several major breadbasket cities and production and commerce cities this way. It would allow for better gameplay

To take into account spoilage, you could transport the food a maximum of 10 hexes in the beginning, and the amount would increase with the techs you discover. You could transport food an unlimited number of hexes with the discovery of Refrigeration.

Here are some of my ideas to add on to your post. Hope you like it!

 

[.Nightingale]

I don't know how resources will work in CIV5 but i alway thought that you should be able to divert surplus resources between your cities.

That way you could get sacrifice production in your core tu build up faster some far away cities, and it would be more viable to build cities in unfavorable but strategic terrain since they could relay on imports from the rest of your empire.

Of course, there should be limitation such as a % of the resources getting lost according to distance, corruption, etc, and the transport should only be posible if there is a open route between the cities.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Keep it simple.

An export food button on each city.
Specify how much food per turn and destination city.
Maybe need to export in units of 3 (0, 3, 6, etc.)
Maybe for each 3 exported only 2 arrives at destination city.
(could be only 1 out of three arrives prior to getting an appropriate tech.
Maybe 3 out of 3 after getting Refrigeration.)

Maybe both sending and receiving cities need to have a Granary.
If overseas rather than land connection, maybe in addition both cities need to have a Harbor.

Set it up and it stays in place until changed.

 

[PeterWimsey]

MOO2 did something like this very well - IIRC, you would construct a fleet of five "freighters," which allowed you to transfer five excess food units among your planets. Which allowed certain planets to function as mining planets or science planets, as you did not have to devote population to agriculture. (This also allowed you to exploit more planets, since many planets only had limited food producing ability anyway). I think that the system was automated, although sometimes pirates would destroy a freighter or something.

This was done historically by water - Rome was dependent on grain shipments from Egypt and N.Afr., which was an important reason to keep the mediterranean pirate free. Barges were also used to transport foodstuffs between cities. So perhaps after a certain point, cities with a water connection to each other could share food.

You don't really get meaningful land transportation of food over any distance until the invention of railroads - an oxcart can only transport a relatively small amount of food (1000-1500 lbs) and very slowly (basically, 10 miles per day). Plus, you have to feed the ox, which would result in the animals consuming a large percentage (or all!) of the food if you have to travel very far.

 

[imperiex1]

MOO2 did something like this very well - IIRC, you would construct a fleet of five "freighters," which allowed you to transfer five excess food units among your planets. Which allowed certain planets to function as mining planets or science planets, as you did not have to devote population to agriculture. (This also allowed you to exploit more planets, since many planets only had limited food producing ability anyway). I think that the system was automated, although sometimes pirates would destroy a freighter or something.

This was done historically by water - Rome was dependent on grain shipments from Egypt and N.Afr., which was an important reason to keep the mediterranean pirate free. Barges were also used to transport foodstuffs between cities. So perhaps after a certain point, cities with a water connection to each other could share food.

You don't really get meaningful land transportation of food over any distance until the invention of railroads - an oxcart can only transport a relatively small amount of food (1000-1500 lbs) and very slowly (basically, 10 miles per day). Plus, you have to feed the ox, which would result in the animals consuming a large percentage (or all!) of the food if you have to travel very far.

Which brings me to another important point in the Civ series. There should be special types of boats that can only travel on rivers and/or coast. These would carry a certain amount of food that could be used in other cities. Later, there will be units(Trains) that can only travel on railroads and can get resources from Point A to Point B.

 

[LaRate]

Civ 2 had the Caravans and Freight Trucks as units. AFAIR, they were able to set a food trade route.

Personally I would like to see food transferred from one city to another. There should be a penalty (send/receive ratio) depending on the distance and accessibility (waterways, roads, etc.) of the actual route. The ratio might climb thorugh the access of key techs (Navigation, Railroad, Refridgeration, Flight). Also the amount of external food receivable for each city should either be limited or the penalty should progressively rise with the transferred amount (e.g. get 1 for 2, get 3 for 9).

Furthermore, food trade with other civs could be an interesting thing..

 

[TheDS]

Heck, I'd like to try out taking it a step further to see if the concept works in Civ as well as it did MOO2. Just as all Commerce gets pooled, also pool all Food and all Hammers. Then you just funnel them where they're needed.

The only time local production really matters is if the city gets cut off from the rest of the empire. You could do blockading at sea like in Civ4 and that might cut off a certain fraction of what comes in or goes out. More ships blockading means a tighter blockade. At some point you get a perfect blockade, probably dependent on force, tech, and other factors. An island of 3 cities cut off would be able to share among them, but not out to the rest of the empire.

On land, having the road occupied would do the same thing. Though cutting the road could stop trade, the invaders would be loathe to do so for the advantages of leaving it intact; like settling rebellion happens much faster when there's a road for food to come in on. Sitting multiple units on a road (or river) would eventually cut off trade, depending on things like tech and so forth, just like at sea.

This is a lot like the way MOO2 handled food distribution, assuming you had enough freighters to carry food. Redistribution production simply required you to channel the production of a good planet into Gold, then use the Gold to buy production at a less-powerful world... as long as it wasn't blockaded.

MOO2 did something like this very well - IIRC, you would construct a fleet of five "freighters," which allowed you to transfer five excess food units among your planets. Which allowed certain planets to function as mining planets or science planets, as you did not have to devote population to agriculture. (This also allowed you to exploit more planets, since many planets only had limited food producing ability anyway). I think that the system was automated, although sometimes pirates would destroy a freighter or something.

Once built, a freighter was never lost. Unused freighters cost nothing to maintain, but there was a cost to build.

With enough freighters, you could focus your food production on a few really good worlds, focus your science production on worlds good for that, and focus everything else on production. The trick was, freighters were expensive to operate. Rarely did I have a large empire with all food production on just a handful of worlds, but you do learn to focus food, ore, and science production on worlds good for those.

By default, every world got exactly as much food as it needed, with any excess being sold off as profit to the bit-bucket (couldn't sell on the market to other players). As long as a world got its quota, it had growth. Then there were things you could build to increase growth.

The next Civ could have a system like that, where food goes where it's needed, where hammers go where they're needed, and any excess can be sold onto the world market.

 

[imperiex1]

Heck, I'd like to try out taking it a step further to see if the concept works in Civ as well as it did MOO2. Just as all Commerce gets pooled, also pool all Food and all Hammers. Then you just funnel them where they're needed.

The only time local production really matters is if the city gets cut off from the rest of the empire. You could do blockading at sea like in Civ4 and that might cut off a certain fraction of what comes in or goes out. More ships blockading means a tighter blockade. At some point you get a perfect blockade, probably dependent on force, tech, and other factors. An island of 3 cities cut off would be able to share among them, but not out to the rest of the empire.

On land, having the road occupied would do the same thing. Though cutting the road could stop trade, the invaders would be loathe to do so for the advantages of leaving it intact; like settling rebellion happens much faster when there's a road for food to come in on. Sitting multiple units on a road (or river) would eventually cut off trade, depending on things like tech and so forth, just like at sea.

This is a lot like the way MOO2 handled food distribution, assuming you had enough freighters to carry food. Redistribution production simply required you to channel the production of a good planet into Gold, then use the Gold to buy production at a less-powerful world... as long as it wasn't blockaded.



Once built, a freighter was never lost. Unused freighters cost nothing to maintain, but there was a cost to build.

With enough freighters, you could focus your food production on a few really good worlds, focus your science production on worlds good for that, and focus everything else on production. The trick was, freighters were expensive to operate. Rarely did I have a large empire with all food production on just a handful of worlds, but you do learn to focus food, ore, and science production on worlds good for those.

By default, every world got exactly as much food as it needed, with any excess being sold off as profit to the bit-bucket (couldn't sell on the market to other players). As long as a world got its quota, it had growth. Then there were things you could build to increase growth.

The next Civ could have a system like that, where food goes where it's needed, where hammers go where they're needed, and any excess can be sold onto the world market.

I think that the "freighter system" should vary with techs, type, and Era. Because there are units carrying it, they should take time to go.(Aircraft, however, carry little food and cost quite a bit, but can deliver food anywhere on the globe in 1 turn.)

 

[Earthling]

This is a poor idea and I oppose almost all forms of such implementation. It inevitably leads to game imbalance and brokenness, at the very least against the AI, but sometimes frustratingly for human optimizers too. Food as a local resource is easy to understand, makes for solid yet also understandable strategic choices, and prevents obessions over other abuse/optimization.

Civ IV already has enough of the way into this with the effects of corporations, which are a good mechanic, but beyond late-game effects like that about as far as I'd go is adding infrastructure buildings that can increase food output, and then with general production/gold applied to invest in a city can increase it's growth. In civ4 terms, mods adjusting a bit more about food with trade routes or civics or such already hit their limits - and going further to really make an import/export system is just a trap, that will lead to ridiculousness of uber-capitals and the like, counter to the real meat of previous civilization games.

In short,

Clear and straightforward and fun gameplay > Perfect freedom to build cities in tundra just because you can. If you really want such a simulator worldbuild/mod it yourself, it's just not worth screwing with the AI and all other aspects of game balance.

 

[Frank Drebin]

as long as it doesnt mean as much micromanagement as in civ2 it's and ok idea.

 

[TheDS]

I think that the "freighter system" should vary with techs, type, and Era. Because there are units carrying it, they should take time to go.(Aircraft, however, carry little food and cost quite a bit, but can deliver food anywhere on the globe in 1 turn.)

I can agree that higher tech (better cargo ships) should translate into more efficient/cheaper transport costs, but taking time to transit is an annoyance that can be done without. Trade routes in Civ4 work pretty well as they are, no need to fix something that ain't broken.

This is a poor idea and I oppose almost all forms of such implementation. It inevitably leads to game imbalance and brokenness, at the very least against the AI, but sometimes frustratingly for human optimizers too. Food as a local resource is easy to understand, makes for solid yet also understandable strategic choices, and prevents obsessions over other abuse/optimization.

Worked pretty darn well in MOO2, and was just as easy to understand if not easier than Civ's model. It's been used quite successfully in other games, but I'm not gonna search out a list for you.

Clear and straightforward and fun gameplay > Perfect freedom to build cities in tundra just because you can.

That's not exactly what's going on here, dude. And who's to say freedom ISN'T MORE fun? Not like we can't make it more "expensive" to feed a tundra city than a normal city. Not like it can't be more "expensive" to feed a city through non-local resources either.

If you really want such a simulator worldbuild/mod it yourself, it's just not worth screwing with the AI and all other aspects of game balance.

Well see, if it was as easy as that, someone would've done it by now. But we're not all programmers. Developing the mod, developing AI players that can handle it, etc, those things require knowledge most of us don't have, and those that do have it would expect to be paid for it.

 

[En_Dotter]

Alpha Centauri had supply units that could deliver resources to other cities. It took some time to make a transport and to bring it to the targeted city but it was worthy sometimes when fast growth was needed or if one city had surplus food and the other was stagnant or starving.

I want this in but not limited to food only.

Food in the empire and other resources can be shared and should be. Imagine having flood plains on one part of ur empire and mountains on the other side. Its logical to supply that region with food in exchange for other stuff. Thats how it is in reality anyway.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Essentially this is a good idea and completely realistic. Many of the greatest cities ever would not have developed to their high state, or at all, without food imports. It would also make trade and supply routes more important as they are in real life. Likewise, the diplomatic and political role of trade, embargoes and blockades would be enhanced. Historically, they were often pivotal.

In addition, production could be shared among cities especially in more modern times wherein places make components that are then sent to an assembly point (no aircraft, car or boat in the world is made entirely in one city). There would be some loss in transport (reflecting fuel and labour costs, corruption, wastage, etc). Note that money is already shared virtually seamlessly but with costs for distance and civics.

I think that the amount of a resource not just the presence of it is an issue that needs to be explored further. Corporations in CIV4 started to do that and there are indications that CIV5 will go further in that direction.

 

[P-Dubya]

I'm not opposed to the ability to send food, resources, etc from one city to the next. That does make sense..... but I think the best idea I've heard here so far is letting ships use rivers! And another nice add would be to see cities whose centers are not built next to water BUT have water within the city radius to build harbors so they too could build boats. That would nice....

 

[Dachs]

this is a poor idea and i oppose almost all forms of such implementation. It inevitably leads to game imbalance and brokenness, at the very least against the ai, but sometimes frustratingly for human optimizers too. Food as a local resource is easy to understand, makes for solid yet also understandable strategic choices, and prevents obessions over other abuse/optimization.

Civ iv already has enough of the way into this with the effects of corporations, which are a good mechanic, but beyond late-game effects like that about as far as i'd go is adding infrastructure buildings that can increase food output, and then with general production/gold applied to invest in a city can increase it's growth. In civ4 terms, mods adjusting a bit more about food with trade routes or civics or such already hit their limits - and going further to really make an import/export system is just a trap, that will lead to ridiculousness of uber-capitals and the like, counter to the real meat of previous civilization games.

In short,

clear and straightforward and fun gameplay > perfect freedom to build cities in tundra just because you can. If you really want such a simulator worldbuild/mod it yourself, it's just not worth screwing with the ai and all other aspects of game balance.

BUT THERE WILL BE NO ROME!!!!!!11111

 

[Brawndo]

This is a great idea, I always thought of this myself. It never made sense why some of my cities would starve and the others would just stand idly by.

If it were up to me, this ability would not be available from the start of the game; instead, it would be unlocked with a tech advance in middle ages or so. Also, shipping food would require open trade routes between both cities, so a besieging army could starve out a city

 

[Pooh]

I'm a big fan of the possibility of shipping food around your empire. Opens up all kinds of strategic questions with respect to the benefits of a highly specialized interdependent web versus self-reliant individual cities. Anyway, see the following links for some thoughts I've already posed on the issue:

A thread I started on this topic:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=369789

Some ideas I had for implementation (in a different thread):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9482319#post9482319

 

[adam_grif]

I love the idea of food importing, but I hate the idea of adding more micro when we should be heading the opposite direction.

As such, I think there should be a button on your city that says "IMPORT FOOD", and you click + to import MORE FOOD and - to import LESS. You can become a net exporter to sell off excess food for gold. The food doesn't necessarily need to "come from" other cities, although maybe it should for balance reasons.

Food trade between cities requires them to have a connection, via road or boat or airport or whatever.