Factory or Levee?

[RobAnybody]

I'm looking for a guideline, or, better yet, a rule, on when to build a Factory vs.when to build a Levee. It seems like there should be a break-even point where one is better than the other.

Like, for example, take a city producing x hammers with y river tiles. Is there a deterministic point, granted that will vary with population available to work the tiles, where Factory > Levee, or Levee > Factory? There probably is, but I often have trouble determining it, so I'm asking the general community for help.

Can anyone help me develop a "rule" where the city already has x hammers (regardless of how it got them - let's say these are the only next two possible builds), it has y river tiles, & p population leads to a rule as to which is better, if you just want to increase the s of a given city, all else being equal? For this purpose, assume the city won't grow onto another tile until either build has been completed plus a few turns.

Ideally, I'd like an answer wrt Epic, where a Factory takes 375 & a Levee takes 270, because that's what I usually play, but other levels would be appreciated as well.

Thanks in advance.

 

[FornaxTorak]

Wrong section? Isn't this a Civ4 question?

 

[Avatan]

Ok let's do this!
Let x be your hammer output (before modificators!!!) and y the number of rivers workable immediately.

Let's assume you have a workshop in the city but no railroads.

The net bonus for factory is 0.1*x + 1.2 * 4
The net bonus for levee is 1.1*y

The turning point is: x + 48 = 11 * y

To put it simply, if your production + 50 is more than the number of workable river tiles times 10 then go factory. It should be like always.

With railroads it's different

Factory bonus : 0.1 * x + 1.35 * 4
Levee bonus : 1.35 * y

Turning point : x + 58 = 1.35 y

Still should be factory unless you got an insane river city. Ideally get both.

 

[Terakahn]

I don't even know what a levee is =(

 

[Lordleoz]

Ok let's do this!
Let x be your hammer output (before modificators!!!) and y the number of rivers workable immediately.

Let's assume you have a workshop in the city but no railroads.

The net bonus for factory is 0.1*x + 1.2 * 4
The net bonus for levee is 1.1*y

The turning point is: x + 48 = 11 * y

To put it simply, if your production + 50 is more than the number of workable river tiles times 10 then go factory. It should be like always.

With railroads it's different

Factory bonus : 0.1 * x + 1.35 * 4
Levee bonus : 1.35 * y

Turning point : x + 58 = 1.35 y

Still should be factory unless you got an insane river city. Ideally get both.

With railroads, the turning point is: x + 54 = 13.5 y

 

[Avatan]

With railroads, the turning point is: x + 54 = 13.5 y

It actually is x + 58 = 13.5 y, the former expression is off:

Factory bonus = 0.1 x + 4* 1.45

Because you get .25 from railroad, .1 from workshops and .1 from the factory itself.
So with 7 rivers you are better off with a levee if your production is under 37, as it should be.

But most people will have the option to build a factory way before a levee and way before railroads, so I don't really see this buildings are concurrent but better as best buds.

 

[Rooftrellen]

I may not remember all that well, but I don't think railroads changed production in Civ 4, so they wouldn't make a difference at all.

Or is this about some mod?

I don't even know what a levee is =(

Levees were in Civ 4. They gave production to riverside tiles, as I recall. I assume one of the big reasons this question comes up is that, in Civ 4, factories caused a city to be less healthy and didn't give any flat hammers, while levees gave flat hammers on riverside SQUARES, which changes things quite a bit from hexes.

It, overall, makes the choice of what to build for production in Civ 4 a bit more complicated.


It does seem to be in the wrong section.

 

[Avatan]

I may not remember all that well, but I don't think railroads changed production in Civ 4, so they wouldn't make a difference at all.

Or is this about some mod?

Levees were in Civ 4. They gave production to riverside tiles, as I recall. I assume one of the big reasons this question comes up is that, in Civ 4, factories caused a city to be less healthy and didn't give any flat hammers, while levees gave flat hammers on riverside SQUARES, which changes things quite a bit from hexes.

It, overall, makes the choice of what to build for production in Civ 4 a bit more complicated.

It does seem to be in the wrong section.

Oh Yeah it is not called a levee but an hydroplant. At least that's what i've been talking about!

 

[The_J]

Wrong section? Isn't this a Civ4 question?

-> Moderator Action: Moved to the Civ4 area.
In case you see a misplaced thread, or anything else which might need moderator attention, then please don't hesitate to contact us either via private message or via the report post function (the

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[BornInCantaloup]

Is it BULL mod that gives you the actual yield of any building? BAT should do it as well, I suppose.
I know BUFFY does it and BUG doesn't.

What I mean by "gives you the actual yield" is that, when you hover the mouse on a building you wanna build, e.g. a Library, the mod tells you the generic effect (+25% science) and the actual one (+4 if that city produces 16).
With Dye, a Theater will indicate +3 and 1

Simplest way to know the yield is not to calculate it...
Of course, in the case of Levee/Factory, the yield evolves with city size.


Most of the time, Levee will be better than a +25% increase. Especially for smallish cities (size10 or so).
Having Power will shift the balance towards the Factory earlier. But still, When a Levee can easily provide +7-+10 hammers, one needs an already very productive city to have the same result with a Factory.

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

A levee will be available before a factory. Any riverside production city is going to want both buildings; so really you shouldn't be making a choice. Build the levee when you get Steam Power. Its base boost will go through the forge 25% and help build your factory & coal plant more quickly.

If for whatever reason you didn't build the levee prior to factories being available, then maybe someone with better algebra skills than me can come up with an equation...although it's tough to factor in the fact that building the factory will open up the coal plant with its production multiplier.

 

[barbertje]

A levee will be available before a factory. Any riverside production city is going to want both buildings; so really you shouldn't be making a choice. Build the levee when you get Steam Power. Its base boost will go through the forge 25% and help build your factory & coal plant more quickly.

If for whatever reason you didn't build the levee prior to factories being available, then maybe someone with better algebra skills than me can come up with an equation...although it's tough to factor in the fact that building the factory will open up the coal plant with its production multiplier.

A coal plant will give a 50% production modifier for 150 hammers, while a factory gives only 25% for 250 hammers, so a coal plant is much better than a factory,
and if you build the factory first, the coal plant should be built immediately after.

So what you can do is to compare the times to build:
levee, factory, coal plant or factory, coal plant, levee.

Suppose there are B base hammers without the levee and the levee gives L hammers. Also suppose you're not using state property, organized religion and there is a forge.

building a levee takes 180/ (1.25 B) = 144/B turns

building a factory takes 250/(1.25 (B+L)) = 200/(B+L) turns.

building a coal plant takes 150/(1.5 (B+L)) 100/(B+L) turns.

total = 144/B + 300/(B+L) turns.

the other option:

building a factory takes 250/(1.25 B) = 200/B turns
building a coal plant takes 150/(1.5 B) = 100/B turns.
building a levee takes 180/(2B) = 90/B turns.

total = 390/B

Levee first is better if factory first takes longer, so 390/B > 144/B + 300/(B+L) =>

256/B > 300/(B+L) => 256(B+L) > 300 B => 256L > 44 B => 5.82 L > B

Being organized and/or germany will give a substantial bonus to factory building,
so you'll have to redo the computations

There are some other considerations that i don't think are too important

The production bonus from organized religion or state property will make levee first a bit better. (altough state property will probably raise B)

If the city still has to grow B will go up, making factory first a bit better.

If you will be unhealthy, levee-first will make the city unhealthy later, wich will give some extra food.

finally don't forget to count an extra levee-hammer on the city tile, if the city was build on a tile wich produces 1 hammer while unimproved.

 

[Killroyan]

Normally by the time I can build factories all my river cities do have levees. I love the leveeeeeeeeeeeesssss!!!

But interesting read nonetheless.

 

[Manco Capac]

Most of the time, Levee will be better than a +25% increase. Especially for smallish cities (size10 or so).
Having Power will shift the balance towards the Factory earlier. But still, When a Levee can easily provide +7-+10 hammers, one needs an already very productive city to have the same result with a Factory.

Indeed, that resumes well a good rule of thumb.

===================

First of all, normally, you don't get both Assembly line and Steam Power in a short time, so we should have a bit of a period to build levees before it comes to factories to be available. Levees strength indeed lies in the number of hammers you can get (faster recovery of investment), lower cost and lastly one less . Indeed, never thwart yourself from factories and Coal plants just for a couple of , unless you unhealthiness is extremely bad, that should mean warring for more health resources or better resources trades. Some people wants to keep clean and wait Three Gorges Dam for avoiding and at the same time avoid coal plants because they don't want to lose hammers on it. Coal plants are a critical moment when your economy explodes.

Now back to the subject.

First, levees improve tiles directly and just like early game where working good strong resources, it gives better outputs for an invested 2 per population.
For all cities, it is strong.

If you want to know which one gives the best output after completing on a static basis on population, that harder because of costs and where are riverside tiles. Are they brown tiles harder to sustain and will make the city starving.

With a static population and automatic gift of either hammer building, the formula is:
Let x=after rearranging tile working order, what are the present base hammer output,
Pop= max population working riverside plots
L=result with levee, b=base hammer rate and
F=factory output

L=Pop*(x+1) Sadly, that shifts from a better plot assignment arrangements. It is blunt rule of thumb.

F= 1.25b
Don't forget to round down any non-integer value because this is how the game works.
Ideally, x=b for better comparison, but beefing up riverside tiles may change assignments on tiles.

Now including cost, this is harder part and I do not have for the moment. Sadly.

 

[Doshin]

The other thing to remember is that it's often better to simply build more units. If you have Infantry when a neighboring AI has Rifles, it's important to make the most of that opportunity as soon as possible. Or, expressed as a formula:

Infantry > Levee > Factory

 

[coanda]

I think barbertje demonstrated if you are just planning on building all three (factory, power, levee) at the same time, and ignore health consequences, it's almost always better to get factory first. Extremely low-production cities (1-4 hammers base, which likely won't even want a factory/power at all) might want levee first. Levee becomes available sooner, and is a very good build, so often you get that first simply because you have no choice.

Similarly, if a city is already at or near its health cap, factory + coal plant can lose a lot of their value relative to levee (if it adds 6 sickness and costs 3 pop, that's about 20-30 hammers per turn you could lose after multipliers, which will tilt the balance strongly towards levee - suddenly the levee starts looking worthwhile as the first move except for the strongest production cities, or cities with almost no river tiles.

And as Doshin notes, either of these may want to take back seat to a military force. At 140 hammers for an infantry, getting Factory + Power Plant doesn't catch up in speed until you've produced about 10 infantry out of that city (25+ if it's your Heroic Epic city); most infantry timing pushes don't call for making 10+ infantry out of any one city (you draft a dozen, whip or rushbuy a dozen, and build a couple dozen spread out over all your cities).

Finally, you may not have time to invest 580 in production boosters in a city, but have time for some fraction of that - 180 for a Levee, or 400 for factory and power. In those cases, you obviously go with what you can afford.

Very specialized commerce city: Levee, skip the factory/power.
Most cities with spare health: Factory -> Coal Plant -> Levee.
Most cities with little or no spare health: Levee -> Factory -> Coal Plant.
Exceptionally strong production city, regardless of health: Factory -> Coal Plant -> Levee.
Established cities in a typical game: Levee (at Steam Power) -> Factory -> Coal Plant (at AL)
Cities in war prep: Build an army -> Win Game

 

[barbertje]

I think barbertje demonstrated if you are just planning on building all three (factory, power, levee) at the same time, and ignore health consequences, it's almost always better to get factory first.

I actually didn't demonstrate that. If a levee gets you 10 hammers, you need 59 base production to make factory first better. (if not organized or germany) In lots of games you won't have a single city with so much production.

 

[coanda]

I actually didn't demonstrate that. If a levee gets you 10 hammers, you need 59 base production to make factory first better. (if not organized or germany) In lots of games you won't have a single city with so much production.

You're right, I had misinterpreted the multiplication of L. Incidentally though, in reworking the math to check how I was mistaken I also noticed a minor error on your part - 390 - 144 = 246, not 256. Propagate that out to the end, and the new breakeven point becomes 4.56L >= B for when you should go factory first.