Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[Milaga]

Heh. How quickly I forget about this.

I had been mulling this over a week or so ago while I was playing around with the incredibly awesome Malakim+. The solution appears to be allowing bedouins to create a special mine only on desert tiles (which would be desert hills or any desert tile with a resource that requires a mine to access it.) Deep Desert Mine. Instead of +1 it would be +2 -1.

I imagine it would need to be affected by Arete civic and Blasting Powder tech as well. Or, perhaps not. Plus it would need to work as a mine for the appropriate events (spider infestation, dwarven transmuter, etc.)

In Malakim+ I also had instances where I wanted plains for workshops as well. Perhaps a replacement for this would be a special workshop bedouins can create on desert tiles that would have production equivalent to a plains workshop but lessen commerce. In fact, since you shouldn't normally be able to create a workshop in a desert tile, I think the commerce penalty should be somewhat severe. Like -3 or even -all. If you want to use that tile for hammers, that's all it will be for.

I didn't have a chance to look into implementing it myself because I recently decided to try out the Archos and Austrin civs, each of which has changed a lot since I first played FF. Now I'm working on the Scions ... and there's still Doviello+ to try out. Man I love this game.

 

[Valkrionn]

Glad you enjoy Malakim+.

At the moment, it is impossible to add yields to an improvement based on what terrain it is on, so that's out. I thought about adding civ-specific improvements, but I really don't like doing that, and they already have the Bedouin improvements....

 

[Breez]

Not a bug, so posting it here

Master Outfitter is tied to the wrong Building.

- Master Smith requires the melee training building - Training Yard
- Master Fletcher requires the archer training building - Archery Range
- Master <forgot name> requires mounted training building - Jousting Field

however

- Master Outfitter does not require recon training building - Hunting Hall instead it requires the building that lets you build recon units instead.

Not a big deal since it is fair across all races and players, just seemed out of step with the rest of the master halls.

 

[Tarquelne]

- Master Outfitter does not require recon training building - Hunting Hall instead it requires the building that lets you build recon units instead.

Hello? How long has that building been there....
Thanks, fixed.

 

[Breez]

Welcome!!

 

[Brokenbone]

Probably posted before, but the question of gaining XP from ranged attacks, whether or not they cause any damage, might be out there as a balance thing.

I sort of like it, it's definitely how you'd get catapults to a useful level, but I did try out a new early game tactic the other day with archers, as big an archer stack as I could handle, just harassing one goblin fort or skeleton barrow in my empire. Didn't happen to be at war, so basic warriors were doing the garrison duty, but every single archer I could muster, I kept sending to the doorstep of a barb enclave and just shot at them a zillion times. Promotions galore. Ended up forming the nucleus of an excellent conquest army, of like, two axemen and a dozen level 10 archers, roll up to a city's doorstep, bombard the crap out of them, and then the axes would pick off defenders.

Anyhow, it kind of made me think Archery Ranges were a sucker's bet unless needing happiness in Aristocracy, as long as you've got some harmless barrow, fort or something within your cultural borders, convenient to all towns, as your training range with live (or undead) targets. Thanks barbarians, couldn't have done it without you!

 

[WarKirby]

Probably posted before, but the question of gaining XP from ranged attacks, whether or not they cause any damage, might be out there as a balance thing.

The amount of xp you get is proportional to the damage you do. You should be getting 0xp for 0 damage. If not, I think that's a bug.

As for the gathering infinite xp, I think this is, once again, an AI issue. Not a problem with the system.

If you're firing on goblins in a fort, skeletons in a barrow, or something similiar, they should recognise that they're in danger, and attempt to either escape, or attack you. Either way will result in them leaving the barrow, and probably giving easy access to it, but I find that to be rather logical, and preferable to them standing there gaining infinite xp.

Goblin archers in their forts should generally be firing back at you, and probably making themselves very powerful in the long run.

 

[Brokenbone]

I found picking on things within my borders was safest, as I'm pretty sure a culturally "colored" barrow or fort or whatever, no longer generates new troops. If there's one barbarian, he will be stuck there doing garrison duty forever... if it was outside your borders, maybe a 2nd skeleton or 2nd chariot or something would sortie and bother you.

I will double check if I got 0xp for 0 dmg, but I'm pretty much convinced I was getting XP... again, BIG stack of archers vs. a goblin (not a goblin archer who'd shoot back), it felt like every turn or two, one or two of them would get a promotion, I did focus on getting the better and better ranged damage cap business so maybe it meant some had the chance of weakening the target only "so much", but the highly promoted ones went that extra mile. That said, I did just have the group all fire at once so who knows who did the damage?

 

[Sarisin]

Is anyone playing this game/modmod at Marathon speed?

I usually play Epic, but decided to go long for a game.

I just cannot believe that Statis, which Auric Ulvin uses as soon as possible, freezes things for 60 turns! Playing as the Jotnar, this was really a killer.

It's bad enough things take so long to build, research, etc., but add 60 turns of exciting HIT ENTER, HIT ENTER, etc. I'm thinkin' this is unplayable at Marathon.

Before the Illians used the World Spell (they also typically unleashed Mokka et al almost immediately - at Marathon speed ) all 7 of the civs were fairly close in score. After surviving the 60 turns of downtime, Auric Ulvin had a lead of nearly 150 pts - that's a lot early on at Marathon speed.

Also, I noticed despite using the raging barb/orc swarm settings there were almost zero barbs on the map. A few animals and 2 or more defenders in the barb cities, but that was about it. I guess that was a good thing with Statis.

Finally, this was my first Marathon game with Jotnar. My first citizen did not show up until Turn 286. Is that about right for that game speed?

 

[Iceciro]

Wow, 60 turn stasis?

I'm not sure how balanced that is mechanically, but as far as enjoyment of playing?
60 turns just hitting enter? Total pass.
I would just /quit.

 

[Sarisin]

Here is part of the problem why there are no raging barbs in the Marathon game I am playing. This is only one example as there are other barb cities just turtling up with many defenders.

This problem has been around in FFH for a long time, but I didn't see it when I played FF at Epic speed - just Marathon for some reason.

Anyway, my sole effort at Marathon speed is done. You can have it. IMO the game is unplayable at that speed.

 

[Lord Haldane]

I play exclusively on Marathon.

Stasis certainly has the potential to be absolutely crippling on this speed, but the Illian AI typically wastes it within the first 400 turns or so. I once witnessed them leverage it into a total conquest of the unprepared Amurites, and they do gain at least a small advantage from 60 turns of extra research at any point, yet they are really missing the devastating applications in the late game. 60 turns around turn 800+, preferably of course right after The Draw, would crush any reactive expeditions launched by both humans and AI. Provided they could survive into the era of one and two turn unit production, Stasis would finally provide a powerful boost that Auric very much requires!

 

[JimMorrison]

I can absolutely confirm the exp gain from 0 damage ranged attacks. It was the only way in my recent Svartalfar game that I could make anything useful of the Nyxkin.

I also had a squad of 5 archers that could invade cities eventually.

Honestly, I think it should stay, but be reduced significantly. Currently I am getting 1.25xp per "failed" ranged attack. If that were .25xp I think it would be balanced as far as time and effort. Remember, if you have a stack of ranged units attack another stack, some of them will hit previously damaged enemies rather than full strength ones. It is very frustrating if they then get no exp because they were "randomly" targeted to an essentially invalid target.


Regarding World Spells, I have played with them turned off for a LONG time now. I just had too many games ruined by Stasis+Barb Swarms, or Scions+River of Blood, etc. Maybe I'm missing out on some interesting strategies, but my games tend to last longer.

 

[Sarisin]

Regarding World Spells, I have played with them turned off for a LONG time now. I just had too many games ruined by Stasis+Barb Swarms, or Scions+River of Blood, etc. Maybe I'm missing out on some interesting strategies, but my games tend to last longer.

I think I will go with that option too. I'm playing the Jotnar now that don't even have a World Spell and things like Stasis and River of Blood kill them. Although I was surprised to get a citizen during Stasis.

 

[Sarisin]

I play exclusively on Marathon.

Stasis certainly has the potential to be absolutely crippling on this speed, but the Illian AI typically wastes it within the first 400 turns or so. I once witnessed them leverage it into a total conquest of the unprepared Amurites, and they do gain at least a small advantage from 60 turns of extra research at any point, yet they are really missing the devastating applications in the late game. 60 turns around turn 800+, preferably of course right after The Draw, would crush any reactive expeditions launched by both humans and AI. Provided they could survive into the era of one and two turn unit production, Stasis would finally provide a powerful boost that Auric very much requires!

I guess I am just impatient with that 60 turns to do nothing bit.

Have you tried playing the Jotnar yet using Marathon speed? If ever a civ was made NOT for a slow speed, it is the Jotnar. They are limited in their city size and only can use the tiles just around the capital. Add to this the ungodly number of turns it takes to build, research, gain GPPs, etc. and they are looking at very slow growth.

Also, as I mentioned, for some reason I didn't get my first Citizen until almost Turn 300. If I had not been lucky to get 3 Wild Trolls (1 went barb next turn though ) from goody huts, I would have been wiped out quickly.

 

[Sarisin]

I started a second patch n Marathon speed game by accident - I forgot to change the speed setting back to Epic.

Again, I am seeing two balance issues that I saw in my first game:

1. There simply are next to no barbs/animals on the map despite using the settings that should give you plenty. I have not seen anything that would qualify as a swarm - never more than one lone barb. I am using the Barbarian World setting that starts with barb cities and I have noticed not only do the barb cities seem to spawn faster (some spawn on the borders of other barb cities), but they get plenty of defenders that don't leave the city.

This is quite different than at Epic speed.

2. The other thing is the goody hut/lair/dungeon results. I am getting mostly Gold from all of these. Not just Gold, but plenty of Gold. I have over 3,000 in Gold and the game is not 100 Turns old. Nearly every time the Gold is in triple figures, sometimes more than 300 or 400.

I never see this much Gold (frequency or amount) in the Epic speed games.

Thankfully, no Illians in the game and no Stasis!

As luck would have it, I drew Elohim/Ethne the White for my civ. I am trying to follow the Approved Vehem Defensive Method of Exploring. It is working OK (only lost 2 Scouts and 1 Warrior so far), but here is a question for you, Vehem?

How do you capture an Elephant playing this way?

 

[Mylon]

So, I tried a game playing as the Sidar using ranged attacks. I got lots of shades that way. It was rather... Interesting.

 

[stupidnewbie]

2. The other thing is the goody hut/lair/dungeon results. I am getting mostly Gold from all of these. Not just Gold, but plenty of Gold. I have over 3,000 in Gold and the game is not 100 Turns old. Nearly every time the Gold is in triple figures, sometimes more than 300 or 400.

This is in part because you're playing on marathon rather than epic. Epic goodie huts contain 200% the base amount, while marathon ones have 300%. As far as frequency, I lost two shadows to a warrior once. The RNG is the worst part of the game.

The other day, I set up a map with 50 epic and non-epic dungeons and placed scouts with a mixture of hero/courage/adventure promotions to see if I could find random items. I didn't record what happened, but gold didn't seem over-represented. Out of 500 explorations, though, I did manage to find one hat of capture your defeated enemies ten percent of the time.

(I looked at the python, and one out of 500 is about right. First you have to roll a good result, then you have to roll a perfect 100, which seems odd because great people are ~20x more common and 50x more useful. I don't think anything else takes a 100.)

 

[WarKirby]

Out of 500 explorations, though, I did manage to find one hat of capture your defeated enemies ten percent of the time.

I find this line amusing

I hope next time you find Sword of Stabbing Things

 

[Sarisin]

This is in part because you're playing on marathon rather than epic. Epic goodie huts contain 200% the base amount, while marathon ones have 300%. As far as frequency, I lost two shadows to a warrior once. The RNG is the worst part of the game.

The other day, I set up a map with 50 epic and non-epic dungeons and placed scouts with a mixture of hero/courage/adventure promotions to see if I could find random items. I didn't record what happened, but gold didn't seem over-represented. Out of 500 explorations, though, I did manage to find one hat of capture your defeated enemies ten percent of the time.

(I looked at the python, and one out of 500 is about right. First you have to roll a good result, then you have to roll a perfect 100, which seems odd because great people are ~20x more common and 50x more useful. I don't think anything else takes a 100.)

Thanks for your response, but I am still confused.

Why do Goody Huts yield more Gold in Marathon than Epic? Also, I got one Goody Hut that yielded 450 Gold. I remember that because that is the most I ever received from a Goody Hut. I cannot see how that is just 300% of the base amount. The most I think I ever got from a Goody Hut in Epic is low 100s Gold.

Actually, most of the Gold came from Goody Huts, but there were a couple of lairs with Huge payouts. Usually from lair exploration I find the percentage of getting Orc Warrior defenders is quite high.

I didn't get a single item of power (like the hat you mention), but I did get a Great Bard from the Pyre. Also, a Golden Age from another special lair/dungeon.

But, again, this is just two Marathon speed games, and I am seeing a pattern compared to the usual Epic speed games I play.

BTW, I am playing at Prince difficulty on both speeds.