Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

I think I may have garnered an all-time booby prize from a Goody Hut.

I got 1 Beaker!!!:eek:

Yes, apparently I was just 1 Beaker away from researching Mining, and the Goody Hut gave me just that - 1 Beaker.

Worse than a Map????
 
Spiders...

I am playing a game as Malakin. I captured 2 giant spiders pretty early, and got a 3rd "Named" spider that I watched the AI release from an epic dungeon. From those 3 (most really from the 2) I now have 18 baby spiders sitting in cities waiting to grow to giant spiders AND 12 (+2 that died) giant spiders of varying levels/specialties. Of those 12, 3 are the ones I captured, and 2 are ones that leveled up directly from combat, the others grew up from the small % they have.

These spiders are the bulk of my army. Several are over 100xp

I would suggest reducing the chance to spawn babies and the chance for a baby to grow up each by 20% or so of their current value.

BTW should my spiders be getting my Dunespeak promotion?
 
Breez said:
Spiders...

I am playing a game as Malakin. I captured 2 giant spiders pretty early, and got a 3rd "Named" spider that I watched the AI release from an epic dungeon. From those 3 (most really from the 2) I now have 18 baby spiders sitting in cities waiting to grow to giant spiders AND 12 (+2 that died) giant spiders of varying levels/specialties. Of those 12, 3 are the ones I captured, and 2 are ones that leveled up directly from combat, the others grew up from the small % they have.

These spiders are the bulk of my army. Several are over 100xp

I would suggest reducing the chance to spawn babies and the chance for a baby to grow up each by 20% or so of their current value.

BTW should my spiders be getting my Dunespeak promotion?
Click to expand...

At least, if you're not Archos. It never feels like it happens enough for them >.>
 
Some questions/issues on stealth/invisibility:

1. Frostlings apparently can detect invisible units. My HN Giant Spiders are seen and attacked by Frostlings.

2. Do Rock Ravens also have an ability to see masked units? I built Nox Noctis and had HN units inside my borders and Rock Ravens were firing at them from two tiles away. Nox Noctis doesn't work with them?

3. Then, there was this....I had HN Giant Spiders inside my borders with Nox Noctis. They should be doubly invisible, right? ;) But, no, I had Sidar units, I think Severed Souls, coming into my territory and attacking them. :confused:
 
Breez said:
Spiders...

I am playing a game as Malakin. I captured 2 giant spiders pretty early, and got a 3rd "Named" spider that I watched the AI release from an epic dungeon. From those 3 (most really from the 2) I now have 18 baby spiders sitting in cities waiting to grow to giant spiders AND 12 (+2 that died) giant spiders of varying levels/specialties. Of those 12, 3 are the ones I captured, and 2 are ones that leveled up directly from combat, the others grew up from the small % they have.

These spiders are the bulk of my army. Several are over 100xp

I would suggest reducing the chance to spawn babies and the chance for a baby to grow up each by 20% or so of their current value.

BTW should my spiders be getting my Dunespeak promotion?
Click to expand...

I think you have touched on a bit of an exploit in the game now.

I find the AI plants a few Sword Spiders on the map. These feast on exploring units and are quite powerful in no time. Even a heavily promoted Ranger is not a sure thing against them.

However, if you sacrifice a unit to weaken one or more, and capture them, you can, as you say build up a strong, invisible, HN army and really take it to the AI civs without having to declare war.

I honestly don't find that many Baby Spiders being produced and when I do get one, it doesn't always upgrade in Combat, but sometimes just, um, magically. ;)

Anyway, you make good points and I find myself always trying to take advantage of the powerful Giant Spiders placed on the map and add them to my army or create a separate Army of Spiders.
 
well, actually the original 2 spiders I captured were plain blah 5/4 spiders with no promotions. My ranger took them very easily both times.

The 3rd, named, spider was a dougen spawn so ti was different. It has heroic Defense and is mutated so ti is a 5/7 spider and will be a BEAST once I get it exp.

I think it IS an exploit that they get dunespeak giving them +1 move, +1 first strike, and +20% strength on desert. I made all Rhag spiders so each have blitz and canibalize.

I have been getting 1 square away from SoD headed into my area and letting them step next to me. Then having each spider attack twice and use it's 3rd movement to retreat 1 step. a small stack of 5 spiders are killing 10 warriors/axemen per turn and stepping away to avoid retaliation. Then the AI takes another step toward my culture and I repeat the process until his stack is decimated.

With out dunespeak my spiders would not be so strong AND they would have 1 less movement.

I wonder if also maybe the various species of spiders should be avilable to everyone but ONLY archos should be allowed to get the 2nd level "Greater" promotions.
 
Sarisin said:
Some questions/issues on stealth/invisibility:

1. Frostlings apparently can detect invisible units. My HN Giant Spiders are seen and attacked by Frostlings.

2. Do Rock Ravens also have an ability to see masked units? I built Nox Noctis and had HN units inside my borders and Rock Ravens were firing at them from two tiles away. Nox Noctis doesn't work with them?
Click to expand...

I think both of these are because Recon can see invis. Frostling (as well as regular goblins) can see invis. All hawks and UU of hawks can see invis. So can floating eyes.
 
Rutee said:
At least, if you're not Archos. It never feels like it happens enough for them >.>
Click to expand...

I absolutely agreed... last time I played Archos.

However that was K (?) patch just after then new promotions were made avilable and I think things have changed since then. I KNOW last time I played them baby spiders could only upgrade via combat and it was changed to 1%, I think, chance for them to upgrade to Giant spider each turn.
 
Breez said:
Spiders...

I am playing a game as Malakin. I captured 2 giant spiders pretty early, and got a 3rd "Named" spider that I watched the AI release from an epic dungeon. From those 3 (most really from the 2) I now have 18 baby spiders sitting in cities waiting to grow to giant spiders AND 12 (+2 that died) giant spiders of varying levels/specialties. Of those 12, 3 are the ones I captured, and 2 are ones that leveled up directly from combat, the others grew up from the small % they have.

These spiders are the bulk of my army. Several are over 100xp

I would suggest reducing the chance to spawn babies and the chance for a baby to grow up each by 20% or so of their current value.

BTW should my spiders be getting my Dunespeak promotion?
Click to expand...


I don't see an issue with this. Raising a brood of spiders takes effort. I've tried it, and while amusing at first, I found them more of a burden than useful when T3 and T4 units rolled around, Even with all their xp, most spiders were onlyy capable of killing already-weakened enemies at that stage.

The usefulness of spiders peters out a lot in the lategame.
 
Breez said:
I think both of these are because Recon can see invis. Frostling (as well as regular goblins) can see invis. All hawks and UU of hawks can see invis. So can floating eyes.
Click to expand...

These were primary Frostling WARRIORS. They can see invisible Spiders too? So you are saying all Frostling units, including Archers and Horsemen, can detect invisible units?

I think there is a difference with Nox Noctis. I don't think recon units (I'm not exactly sure what type of unit a Rock Raven is, but it seemed to have a ranged attack so I thought it was an Archer). Regardless, I didn't think those units could detect units masked by Nox Noctis. I think there is a wonder that can be built to detect them inside the borders, but I don't think recon units, etc. should be able to see Spiders (or other units) if you have Nox Noctis.

EDIT Add-on: There is something wrong with Nox Noctis. I just had my HN Stooge inside my borders attacked by a Chislev Griffon. The Stooge definitely had the icon showing he was masked.
 
Sarisin said:
These were primary Frostling WARRIORS. They can see invisible Spiders too? So you are saying all Frostling units, including Archers and Horsemen, can detect invisible units?
Click to expand...

Frostlings are recon units, not melee.

And I believe recon units can only see "hidden animals" invisible units, like spiders. The other kind of invisibility "stealth" that's used by assasins and such, is harder to see. I'm not actually sure what can see it. Dies Dei and Revelation I guess. Can hawks? Perfect Sight should be able to too, but I heard that was broken.
 
No XP for killing Severed Souls?

The Sidar is summoning beaucoup of these things (they take forever to move!) and I've been killing 'em all ... and get nothing.

Why are they different than killing other summoned things?
 
Had what I thought was a bug in Doviello+, turns out it's just a balance issue... Any reason that Mezmerize Animal requires you to be at war with the Animal civ? Seems like a holdover from before the civs were split.... I can't see any reason to limit it that way, as it leaves civs at peace with Animals no way to capture them unless they go CoE... A FoL spell just seems a better place to have it. :lol:

Edit: Oops, obviously it's so you can't steal someone else's animals without being at war..... Maybe a check for at war OR animal civ?

Edit2: Something like this should work... Took me forever as I was being stupid and trying to compare the OWNER, rather than the TEAM. :lol: Changes are in bold.

Spoiler :
Code: 
def reqMezmerizeAnimal(caster):
	iX = caster.getX()
	iY = caster.getY()
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	iTeam = pPlayer.getTeam()
	eTeam = gc.getTeam(iTeam)
	[B]iAnimal = gc.getPlayer(gc.getANIMAL_PLAYER())[/B]
	for iiX in range(iX-1, iX+2, 1):
		for iiY in range(iY-1, iY+2, 1):
			pPlot = CyMap().plot(iiX,iiY)
			for i in range(pPlot.getNumUnits()):
				pUnit = pPlot.getUnit(i)
				if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL'):
					[B]if pUnit.getTeam() == iAnimal.getTeam():
						return True[/B]
					if eTeam.isAtWar(pUnit.getTeam()):
						return True
	return False

def spellMezmerizeAnimal(caster):
	iX = caster.getX()
	iY = caster.getY()
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	iTeam = pPlayer.getTeam()
	eTeam = gc.getTeam(iTeam)
	[B]iAnimal = gc.getPlayer(gc.getANIMAL_PLAYER())[/B]
	for iiX in range(iX-1, iX+2, 1):
		for iiY in range(iY-1, iY+2, 1):
			pPlot = CyMap().plot(iiX,iiY)
			for i in range(pPlot.getNumUnits()):
				pUnit = pPlot.getUnit(i)
				if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL'):
					if eTeam.isAtWar(pUnit.getTeam()):
						if pUnit.isDelayedDeath() == False:
							if pUnit.isResisted(caster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_MEZMERIZE_ANIMAL')) == False:
								newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(pUnit.getUnitType(), caster.getX(), caster.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)
								newUnit.convert(pUnit)
					[B]if pUnit.getTeam() == iAnimal.getTeam():
						if pUnit.isDelayedDeath() == False:
							if pUnit.isResisted(caster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_MEZMERIZE_ANIMAL')) == False:
								newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(pUnit.getUnitType(), caster.getX(), caster.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)
								newUnit.convert(pUnit)[/B]
 
Have some of the very good items been removed from lair/dungeon results in favor of the new gear?

I used to always get Timor Mask (love that one!), Rod of Winds, Poison Blade, and Jade Torch, but have not seen any of these for several games.

Plenty of Gold and Orc Warriors, though, too. ;)

Maybe it's just luck of the draw, but it seems to me that there is a lot of repetition with lair results and many of the items aren't showing up as much now.

Also, I haven't seen my favorite result lately - choice of siding with Lizardmen or Axemen.
 
Sarisin said:
Have some of the very good items been removed from lair/dungeon results in favor of the new gear?

I used to always get Timor Mask (love that one!), Rod of Winds, Poison Blade, and Jade Torch, but have not seen any of these for several games.

Plenty of Gold and Orc Warriors, though, too. ;)

Maybe it's just luck of the draw, but it seems to me that there is a lot of repetition with lair results and many of the items aren't showing up as much now.

Also, I haven't seen my favorite result lately - choice of siding with Lizardmen or Axemen.
Click to expand...


Ditto.

I'm cool with the unfortunate results, but I'd like to see more variety and results that are a mixed blessing. It's been mentioned before, but a Lich popping out carrying a powerful piece of magical equipment is more fun than either result in isolation. The axemen or lizardmen result is a good example of this. :)
 
Sarisin said:
(I'm not exactly sure what type of unit a Rock Raven is, but it seemed to have a ranged attack so I thought it was an Archer).
Click to expand...

Rock Raven is a UU of Hawk for the Chiev. It is the only hawk that has an attack (like fighters in reg Civ:BtS) Definitely a recon unit just like hawks are.

I would almost put money on... The reason your Giant was attacked by the Griffon while Hidden was it was spotted by a Rock Raven, there by letting any Cheiv allied unit attack it.
 
Sarisin said:
No XP for killing Severed Souls?

The Sidar is summoning beaucoup of these things (they take forever to move!) and I've been killing 'em all ... and get nothing.

Why are they different than killing other summoned things?
Click to expand...

How are you actually seeing them? Dies Diei? Should never be visible to anyone other than the Sidar player... The no experience is because they're not a combat unit, nor are they supposed to ever be involved in combat.
 
Breez said:
Rock Raven is a UU of Hawk for the Chiev. It is the only hawk that has an attack (like fighters in reg Civ:BtS) Definitely a recon unit just like hawks are.

I would almost put money on... The reason your Giant was attacked by the Griffon while Hidden was it was spotted by a Rock Raven, there by letting any Cheiv allied unit attack it.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. I am still a little confused in that those Hawk-like units are able to see through Nox Noctis. I didn't know they had that ability.

The other thing was they were firing at the Hill Giant from TWO tiles away.
 
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