Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[Sarisin]

How are you actually seeing them? Dies Diei? Should never be visible to anyone other than the Sidar player... The no experience is because they're not a combat unit, nor are they supposed to ever be involved in combat.

Yes, Vehem, I do have Dies Dei. However, I am definitely able to see the Souls in Sidar territory as well as mine. The Sidar are up against my eastern border and sending these things (and Ghosts, of course) allover the place.

It is interesting that that they are not a combat unit, yet listed as having 10% strength. Also, they seem to be able to defend cities, but I'm not sure about that. They can be 'killed' - I've killed dozens of them.

 

[WarKirby]

Ditto.

I'm cool with the unfortunate results, but I'd like to see more variety and results that are a mixed blessing. It's been mentioned before, but a Lich popping out carrying a powerful piece of magical equipment is more fun than either result in isolation. The axemen or lizardmen result is a good example of this.

I agree here, more variety is needed.

The three most common resuls I get, are in this order

Orcs appear
I get gold
"A bear charges out at you"

I'd estimate that those 3 results account for 70% of all my lair explorations. It does get kind of irritating.

 

[Sarisin]

In looking at the Civilopedia, there are some Resource entries for things I have never seen in a game:

Fine Cloth
Jewelry
Gulagarm ???

Also, I haven't seen Sugar in many moons.

One I get every game and there is no entry for is Mushrooms. Do they provide you any benefit...besides getting you high?

 

[Valkrionn]

Fine Cloth and Jewelry are Kuriotates-specific, and Gulagarm is a hell-resource.

 

[shoggi]

Mushrooms are not a ressource but an improvement which means it can be pillaged.
It gives +2 Food (?) to the plot. Only chance to get it is through the event.

I think Orbis has it as an ressource.

 

[JimMorrison]

Mushrooms are not a ressource but an improvement which means it can be pillaged.
It gives +2 Food (?) to the plot. Only chance to get it is through the event.

I think Orbis has it as an ressource.

I swear until a patch or two ago, it WAS handled as a resource. I was positive that I was able to build improvements on the Mushroom tile. Now, you cannot build improvements without destroying the Mushrooms, it makes me sad, as they are certainly going to become obsolete. Sucks that the -food (Goblins) event is permanent, and the +food event is sort of temporary.

 

[vivictius]

What is the % chance per mana resource for a unit to get a rank2 magic promotion from the new Cave of Ancestors?

 

[Breez]

The other thing was they were firing at the Hill Giant from TWO tiles away.

You are still think of them like an archer unit. Think of them as a fighter unit from the original Civ, with the recon that carries them being their aircraft carrier unit.

They should have a range 3 or 4 or what ever the typical range for hawks are.

 

[Valkrionn]

It's a base chance of 20%, modified by the number of mana you possess x5.

So if you have 8 different mana types, a 60% chance. If you happen to have multiples of one of those mana, say, 2 fire, the chance would go up 5% to 65%.

Of course, that's not really the chance for tier 2 spells, as they're simply added to the list of spells rather than put in a separate list..... You've got an equal shot of getting Blaze as Fireball.

 

[Sarisin]

You are still think of them like an archer unit. Think of them as a fighter unit from the original Civ, with the recon that carries them being their aircraft carrier unit.

They should have a range 3 or 4 or what ever the typical range for hawks are.

That sounds like a good comparison. They also seem to have the ability to see through Nox Noxtis.

 

[vivictius]

Ok, so its just if you have 16 mana nodes (of any time) you will have a 100% chance for every unit made to have a random lvl1 or lvl2 spell promotion from a list of all mana types you have, i.e. if you have 16 force nodes (and no others) all your units from that city will start with either force1 or force2 promotion, correct?

BTW, someone might want to look at what happens when you give a Firebow Force2 and Archery1-3.

 

[WarKirby]

BTW, someone might want to look at what happens when you give a Firebow Force2 and Archery1-3.

Last I looked, firebows don't have channelling II. I checked it the other day, they get a special Ignite ability instead.

 

[Valkrionn]

He meant through the Cave of Ancestors.

 

[Sarisin]

Could someone please explain to me how Blight is calculated?

I usually play civs that allow me to build mega-cities and I expect Blight to hit them hard. However, I am playing the Scion with very small cities and I don't get it.

A city has a pop of 4 and 18 unhealthy green faces for Blight.

Another city is a pop of only 2 and has 12 unhealthy for Blight.

How can such small cities get hit so hard with Blight?

Thank you.

Oh, and one more thing...the Death damaged caused by Blight to HN units is just way out there. I have two HN Giant Spiders in neutral territory (Ok, I guess that is considered enemy too for HN, right?) and they need 13 and 14 turns to heal! Actually, they are sitting about 5-6 tiles from my borders where they are being used as scouts/warning units. I just can't see why HN units take so long to heal. 5-6 turns, maybe, but 13-14, is too much.

 

[WarKirby]

Could someone please explain to me how Blight is calculated?

I usually play civs that allow me to build mega-cities and I expect Blight to hit them hard. However, I am playing the Scion with very small cities and I don't get it.

A city has a pop of 4 and 18 unhealthy green faces for Blight.

Another city is a pop of only 2 and has 12 unhealthy for Blight.

How can such small cities get hit so hard with Blight?

This is something that's confused me as well. In one game I played, several of my bigger cities were hit moderately by the blight, but I recovered just fine.

One in particular though, was given something like +38 unhealth from the blight, and it just got crushed into the dust straight down to size 1. It was about size 12.

Thank you.

Oh, and one more thing...the Death damaged caused by Blight to HN units is just way out there. I have two HN Giant Spiders in neutral territory (Ok, I guess that is considered enemy too for HN, right?) and they need 13 and 14 turns to heal! Actually, they are sitting about 5-6 tiles from my borders where they are being used as scouts/warning units. I just can't see why HN units take so long to heal. 5-6 turns, maybe, but 13-14, is too much.

Units take longer to heal in enemy territory. I think it's something like 5% per turn in enemy territory, so it can take up to 20 turns to heal

 

[Milaga]

Could someone please explain to me how Blight is calculated?

When blight hits, every city gets a random temporary unhealthiness between 1 and 15. For every point of population this is increased by one. For every point of health provided by buildings this is decreased by one. So a size 15 city could get slammed with 30.

I don't believe that granaries, smokehouses or hunting lodges help in this respect as they just increase the benefits of resources and don't provide bonuses themselves. Likewise an herbalist only provides one health even with reagents.

I'm not sure exactly how it dissipates (it's handled through the BtS espionage functions) but you seem to lose either one or two per turn. This espionage function probably also increases the in a city as well.

Units take longer to heal in enemy territory. I think it's something like 5% per turn in enemy territory, so it can take up to 20 turns to heal

I think that basic heal rates are 10% in enemy lands, 15% in neutral lands and 20% in friendly lands. There is a 5% heal rate penalty for being a hidden nationality unit. So the maximum heal duration is 10 turns in enemy land, 8 in neutral and 5 in friendly. And 20 turns if you are a HN unit in enemy (which for them is any owned territory I believe.) This is a pretty significant nerf to the HN units. While a nerf was forthcoming I do think that it's a bit much. The penalty probably shouldn't apply in enemy lands. Especially since, if the enemy happens to have entropy mana, HN units can never heal.

 

[Sarisin]

When blight hits, every city gets a random temporary unhealthiness between 1 and 15. For every point of population this is increased by one. For every point of health provided by buildings this is decreased by one. So a size 15 city could get slammed with 30.

I don't believe that granaries, smokehouses or hunting lodges help in this respect as they just increase the benefits of resources and don't provide bonuses themselves. Likewise an herbalist only provides one health even with reagents.

I'm not sure exactly how it dissipates (it's handled through the BtS espionage functions) but you seem to lose either one or two per turn. This espionage function probably also increases the in a city as well.



I think that basic heal rates are 10% in enemy lands, 15% in neutral lands and 20% in friendly lands. There is a 5% heal rate penalty for being a hidden nationality unit. So the maximum heal duration is 10 turns in enemy land, 8 in neutral and 5 in friendly. And 20 turns if you are a HN unit in enemy (which for them is any owned territory I believe.) This is a pretty significant nerf to the HN units. While a nerf was forthcoming I do think that it's a bit much. The penalty probably shouldn't apply in enemy lands. Especially since, if the enemy happens to have entropy mana, HN units can never heal.

Thank you for the information on both points. I still think that getting that much of a hit on small cities (and bringing some cities down to small cities) is a bit much. Especially when playing civs like the Scion and Jotnar that have mostly small cities. Anyway, thanks for the explanation.

I just really think the damage caused to HN units is out of whack. Here's another example: My HN Giant Spider (in 'neutral') territory attacked an Illian Axeman. The combat odds were 99.9%. The damage caused by the Axeman? How about 32 turns to heal?

That is ridiculous.

One thing that I think needs to be looked at is creating some sort of relationship between combat odds and damage caused. If you have a powerful unit going up against a weak one, you shouldn't be getting these kind of heal times from damage. OK, maybe a weak unit could get lucky once in awhile and cause major damage, but it happens all the time with HN units.

Now if the Combat Odds were 'only' something like 75% or so I would expect my surviving unit to be damaged and require a lot of time to heal.

I just don't think a unit's strength is considered when going up against weak units resulting in this damage and long healing times.

 

[WarKirby]

I really doubt that HN units take more or less damage than anyone else. You're probably just noticing it more because of the healing rate penalty.


I will say though, I don't think it makes sense for HN units to have a penalty. If anything, they ought to have a healing bonus. Being of unknown nationality means they could go rent a room at an Inn to rest for the night, without arousing suspicion.

 

[Milaga]

I will say though, I don't think it makes sense for HN units to have a penalty. If anything, they ought to have a healing bonus. Being of unknown nationality means they could go rent a room at an Inn to rest for the night, without arousing suspicion.

I think you are vastly overestimating a giant spider's ability to hide.

 

[Sarisin]

I really doubt that HN units take more or less damage than anyone else. You're probably just noticing it more because of the healing rate penalty.


I will say though, I don't think it makes sense for HN units to have a penalty. If anything, they ought to have a healing bonus. Being of unknown nationality means they could go rent a room at an Inn to rest for the night, without arousing suspicion.

I'm fairly sure they do take on more damage than non-HN units, WK.

My last couple of games I have built HN Spider armies and even my soldier spiders with over 100 XP and beaucoup promotions are taking double-digit turns to heal after killing units - even with 99.9% combat odds. I don't think the non-HN units rack up such damage/healing turns.

Also, don't get me started on the fleeing again. Once again, the Illians and Archos (including Workers) are fleeing from just about every battle leaving my HN units with serious damage.

Haha, I like your idea about the Spider Inn.