Fall Further is Going to Hell

[WarKirby]

That's not what I mean.

Spreading hell to the world is his goal. Whether or not he's the one that actually does it, shouldn't matter. In the end, his aims are achieved, no ?

I'd venture to say the same about the sheiam, too.

 

[Vehem]

That's not what I mean.

Spreading hell to the world is his goal. Whether or not he's the one that actually does it, shouldn't matter. In the end, his aims are achieved, no ?

I'd venture to say the same about the sheiam, too.

It's not really *his* aim - more Agares'.

The "victory" part comes from being favoured by Agares for the success you had in bringing creation to an end. "The new right hand man" as it were. If Hyborem has been sitting around whilst someone else causes all the damage, he's not going to be very celebrated upon his return.

 

[WarKirby]

With that in mind, then. Neither of the Sheiam leaders care much for Agares' favour. Tebryn is working for Ceridwen, and Os-Gabella just wants to destroy herself.

 

[Vehem]

With that in mind, then. Neither of the Sheiam leaders care much for Agares' favour. Tebryn is working for Ceridwen, and Os-Gabella just wants to destroy herself.

Gameplaywise the Infernals are playable, so they need to do something to win. It won't just be an "auto-win" without them taking part.

The lore can fit around that as well as it may...

 

[dyvim]

With that in mind, then. Neither of the Sheiam leaders care much for Agares' favour. Tebryn is working for Ceridwen, and Os-Gabella just wants to destroy herself.

Well in that case it makes sense that you have to take the main part in the destruction of the world to win... You didn't do it for Agares but for yourself.

BTW, I have an other question (simple curiosity ). Did the individual counter for AC (that you used to determine who take the main part in AC) already exists before this evolution or did you have to add (code) it ?
If it already exists, what was its purpose?

 

[apotheoser]

That's a screen shot of the release version... (well the outside bit anyway - Buboes not included.)

Is Patch K downloadable yet? Maybe I'm dumb, but I can't find it.

 

[Broken Hawk]

While it goes against my nature, I now have a good reason to be evil. The FF team is amazing.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I only wish that something be done with the stupid imunity good civs have to hell terain.
Especialy since not all bad civs love the AC.
Calibim for example, or those evil lizard men. I can't imagine them liking the AC, and the good civs are imune to the hell terain while I get to suffer from it.

 

[Breez]

Is Patch K downloadable yet? Maybe I'm dumb, but I can't find it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292120

Patch K - Unreleased

 

[VSPavlov]

I only wish that something be done with the stupid imunity good civs have to hell terain.
Especialy since not all bad civs love the AC.
Calibim for example, or those evil lizard men. I can't imagine them liking the AC, and the good civs are imune to the hell terain while I get to suffer from it.

When, then you'd better adopt some religion, which will make you look good and save you from hell terrain :

 

[Deon]

Lizardmen cannot adopt religions and Calabim may become neutral only (if not Decius) so you make no sense.


I agree with PPQ that the way Kael did it is quite strange... Sure, the people are good and leader is good but why should it stop the terrain to change? The land is the land, people cannot bend it by their will. Also it obsoletes the desire for good civs to stop hell from spreading, they mainly don't care at all until it's too late. I'd like some game option like "universal hell terrain" which acts like a real terrain and not a some sort of a weird alighnment indicator.

 

[VSPavlov]

Lizardmen cannot adopt religions and Calabim may become neutral only (if not Decius) so you make no sense.

I forgot about Cualli agnosticism, but adopting some good religion and turning neutral will also raise the AC plank required for Calabim lands to become hell terrain, won't it?

I agree with PPQ that the way Kael did it is quite strange... Sure, the people are good and leader is good but why should it stop the terrain to change? The land is the land, people cannot bend it by their will. Also it obsoletes the desire for good civs to stop hell from spreading, they mainly don't care at all until it's too late. I'd like some game option like "universal hell terrain" which acts like a real terrain and not a some sort of a weird alighnment indicator.

I suppose, it's not the "being good prevents hell terrain from spreading", it's like "being evil causes hell terrain to spread", because "heart of an evil man is a door, Devil enters the world through". I suppose, in can be described in religious terms - like "being good means preventive sanctifying each turn" or "being good means having good angels and gods, who protect you". I believe, the problem is not in good civs being immune to hell terrain, the problem is, that evil civs receive more damage from it. Currently, the only concept that helps the evil civs around the growing hell on earth is "sacrifice the weak" civic, which lowers the food requirements. I believe, that there should be more of this (for example, death or entropy city-spells, raising productivity of hell tiles, so they can be even more efficient, than usual one). In my opinion, the whole system should have the following philosophy: good can resist corruption, evil can embrace corruption and use it for their own benefit, and neutral ones are caught between two fires and forced to join one of the sides (so by the time of Final Judgement there would be no neutral parties).

 

[Vehem]

I suppose, it's not the "being good prevents hell terrain from spreading", it's like "being evil causes hell terrain to spread", because "heart of an evil man is a door, Devil enters the world through". I suppose, in can be described in religious terms - like "being good means preventive sanctifying each turn" or "being good means having good angels and gods, who protect you". I believe, the problem is not in good civs being immune to hell terrain, the problem is, that evil civs receive more damage from it.

The other option for evil civs is to seek out and destroy other evil civs that promote AC-increase. Destroying those civs will both stop them increasing the AC and (assuming they are AV) will actually decrease it.

Of course, then Hyborem becomes *the* evil power, with the glut of manes that you create...

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The other option for evil civs is to seek out and destroy other evil civs that promote AC-increase. Destroying those civs will both stop them increasing the AC and (assuming they are AV) will actually decrease it.

Of course, then Hyborem becomes *the* evil power, with the glut of manes that you create...

That is not realy the point. The point is that just becouse you are nice and don't drink blood or don't raise the dead or what ever, it should not magicly render you imune to the hell that is breaking lose around you.
It's a concept just as silly as the culture victory.

 

[Vehem]

That is not realy the point. The point is that just becouse you are nice and don't drink blood or don't raise the dead or what ever, it should not magicly render you imune to the hell that is breaking lose around you.
It's a concept just as silly as the culture victory.

"Creation is a reflection of the people that exist there - just as the spheres that the gods preside over reflect aspects of their nature. The first to fall to Agares are those that welcome it, followed by those with wickedness in their hearts. The apathetic or selfish will follow shortly after - only those willing to stand for something greater than themselves will remain come the final battle."

-- Vehe Mence, Dural Lorekeeper.​

 

[PPQ_Purple]

"Creation is a reflection of the people that exist there - just as the spheres that the gods preside over reflect aspects of their nature. The first to fall to Agares are those that welcome it, followed by those with wickedness in their hearts. The apathetic or selfish will follow shortly after - only those willing to stand for something greater than themselves will remain come the final battle."

-- Vehe Mence, Dural Lorekeeper.​

But that is an extremely idealised concept. Not all people in a good empire are good. Heck, I bet that less than 1/3 of them are realy pure of hearth. (Not counting the angel race). And just becouse they do not count as good, it does not meen that neutral or even evil races are not capable of great feats of goodnes and light.
FFH basicly makes any neutral or evil empire equal to the Demons witch is ilogical.

And besides, no matter how pure of hearth you are, that is not going to phisicly manifest it self upon your land. It's like saying that a soldier of good automaticly clears all blight around him, shines out a light that destroys coruption and demons and is imune to evil. It's just unrealistic.

Just becouse you are somewhat good, or even *perfectly* good it is not goint to cause a magic effect that the strongest archmages of the earth are incapable of preforming.
I can even go along with the gods helping out to slow the blight and all the goodnes slowing it but come on, imunity? Than why don't evil civs have a similar mechanic that makes them imune to goodnes and light?

 

[kenken244]

-- Vehe Mence, Dural Lorekeeper.​

Does that mean that you are going to add yourself to the list of great people?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The main problem with FF is that it does not make a diference betwen Evil as in Calibim and Ashen Vail Evil as in the Demon civ.
There is a huge gap betwen the two. Just becouse a civ does evil things should not impediatly put it in the same basket as a horde of demons bent on literaly destroying the world.

There is something left unsaid about the subtile diference betwen sucking blood here and there and planing to blow up the planet.

 

[Vehem]

that is not going to phisicly manifest it self upon your land.

That is kinda how Creation works though. The personalities of the Divine shaped the world, but then they agreed to leave before their conflicts destroyed it. Mankind has the "Divine Spark" and has become the new tool through which the gods fight their war - even if theoretically they can't enter Creation themselves.

If Mankind becomes evil, then the Evil powers are winning. If they remain good, then the Good powers are winning. Hell is totally unnatural on Erebus itself, but the goodly-gods have little interest in saving evil men from it. Those who follow the path of evil have earnt that fate.

The Sheaim revel in the destruction, but those who had simply sought to take advantage of the weak for their own gain certainly wouldn't be too happy that their "gain" is going to hell.

====

That said - it's definitely not realistic to have a coloured line on a map, beyond which the hell terrain fears to travel. Luckily for us however, it's a game and that is only a gameplay mechanic. Some of the evil races are going to dread armageddon - some actively pursue it. If the game turns toward that end, you basically have to choose to either get involved (choose a side) or just try to survive (sanctify).

It also won't be every game - the AC only really takes off in about 1/3 of games that I've played - normally when I give it a hand myself...

 

[WarKirby]

"Creation is a reflection of the people that exist there - just as the spheres that the gods preside over reflect aspects of their nature. The first to fall to Agares are those that welcome it, followed by those with wickedness in their hearts. The apathetic or selfish will follow shortly after - only those willing to stand for something greater than themselves will remain come the final battle."

-- Vehe Mence, Dural Lorekeeper.​

The Dural sure do pick interesting names for their lorekeepers

It almost sounds like....