Fascist Patch for Civ3

[JeffNebraska]

Just to add a voice, I find the facist patch objectionable, won't install it and think any reference to a website which arguably glorifies Hitler should be removed from this forum.

Even if we all consider ourselves enlightened intellectuals who can separate our gaming from our beliefs, not all who play the game will share our frame of mind. Many impressionable or hateful people may not have such a sophisticated interpretation of the mod.

If we accepted the arguments above for supporting the mod, we would also have to say that a game that permits you to torcher cartoonish demons, like Dungeon Keeper, is no different than a game that allows you to rape realistic looking women. Unfortunately, certain elements of reality are too important to be trivalized in a game.

I consider myself a staunch proponent of free speech, but this forum ought not to be a party to those who seek to reenact realistic, as opposed to cartoonish, acts of violence. No one would be comfortable with a wonder named Smallpox Blankets, Mai lai Massacre or Khmer Rouge for good reason. This game should never be a vehicle for people who wish to realistically reenact historical attrocities.

The facism patch is borderline, but given the tone of the website, it treads too far into dangerous ground and should not be deciminated by thoughtful, responsible people. I strongly urge this forum not to support it, at least until the website is toned down, which I take it for granted its author will categorically refuse to do.

 

[Sony3127]

Well, I understand where starfox and the rest are coming from. It could be very easy to misunderstand the site. I totally agree to a point... but it honestly did not bother me all that much. (and I would consider myself a big patriot) He does emphasize both the front page and within the site that this is for a GAME. He doesn't try to persuade you in any way that Fascism is "the best", nor does he make any real derogatory comments. (if you find some, please show me, and I will stand corrected) Just thought I'd ad my observation... but of course everyone IS entitled to thier own opinion. That's why we have the OPTION to download/view it or not. Thank you for your time.

 

[Kino]

Given all the arguments about not supporting fascism in the game (which are valid, per each individual), I have to wonder why no one seems to care about Communism then? The Soviet Union, under Stalin, killed anywhere from 4 million to 20 million people (the numbers are really fuzzy in this case).

 

[bob92]

Originally posted by Kino
Given all the arguments about not supporting fascism in the game (which are valid, per each individual), I have to wonder why no one seems to care about Communism then? The Soviet Union, under Stalin, killed anywhere from 4 million to 20 million people (the numbers are really fuzzy in this case).

I was just about to make this very point. Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did. Where is the objection to having Communism in the game?

The Romans used to invade foreign cities and kill or enslave every man, woman, and child in the city. Whoops, so much for Democracy and Republic...

And Dictators around the world have been slaughtering and torturing people for thousands of years. Yet every player is REQUIRED to adopt Despotism for the first couple of thousand years! The horror!

Some of you people need a serious reality check. It's a game. If you think the patch will increase your enjoyment of the game, then install it. If not, don't.

As for those of you who want to censor all mention of the patch from this board so that others won't be able to find out about it--perhaps you have more in common with the fascists than you'd like to admit.

 

[runaway]

Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did...

"Stalin and Pol Pot killed mainly their own people, and we're sort of fine with that. Hitler, though, he also killed the people next door... stupid man."

 

[Giorgicus]

For the record, I'm not questioning whether there should be a fascism/totalitarianism government option. I question the objectivity and motivation of the "Fascist Patch" creator, and therefore question whether the fascist patch leads to unbalanced play.

 

[bob92]

Originally posted by Giorgicus
For the record, I'm not questioning whether there should be a fascism/totalitarianism government option. I question the objectivity and motivation of the "Fascist Patch" creator, and therefore question whether the fascist patch leads to unbalanced play.

Ah, so you're talking about gameplay! Now that's a discussion that belongs here. Here are the details from the fascist patch:


Civ3 Fascist Government:

Requires: Fascism

Corruption: Nuisance

Support Cost: 1

Free Units:
Town – 2
City – 4
Metro – 8

Rate Cap: 10
Worker Rate: 2
Assimilation: 4%
Draft Limit: 2
Military Police: 4

Flag Conditions:
Requires Maintenance
Standard Trade Bonus

Ruler Title: Fuehrer

Diplomats are: Regular
Spies are: Regular
Immune to: Steal Technology

Propaganda Resistance
Modifier Modifier
vs
Anarchy 25 -5
Despot 20 -5
Monarch 5 5
Republic -10 5
Democ. -20 5
Comm. -25 10
Fascist 0 0

Tech Advance Cost: 100
X – 455
Y – 159
PreReq – Espionage


Nothing seems out of line to me compared to other government types, but I'm a relative newbie to the Civ series. Other opinions?

 

[Kino]

I made a big, giant reply to the game balance question on page one of this thread.

 

[labest2000]

i don't mind to download this mod. it is interesting to smash this nazi again and again. i also agree that we cannot wipe out the History

 

[bob92]

Originally posted by Kino
I made a big, giant reply to the game balance question on page one of this thread.

So you did...sorry I missed it the first time through. By that point I was getting itchy to post a reply, so I was just skimming.

I agree with most of your modifications, and the rationale behind them, with a couple of exceptions:

1) I think Fascism SHOULD have higher resistance than other forms of government, since the people truly believe that the state is supreme and may be willing to go to greater extremes to protect it (e.g. Japanese kamikazes, which would be unthinkable in most other societies). They also seem to be more brutal and thorough in crushing internal dissent.

2) The Standard Trade bonus. You have decided to leave it in for Fascist societies, even though the other totalitarian societies don't get it. Just curious what your reasoning was on that.

Thanks!

 

[Esca]

I think the Fascist Patch is great.

It was a lot of fun in Civ2.

I will definitely be using it....when I get the game.

 

[Galen Dietenger]

A few things to I feel worth mentioning about some of the mod assumptions\paramters the author employed.

Fascist governments are very worker-focused, often directing state-controlled work programs, but still allowing for private corporations which allows greater commerce than communsim

Yes in theory and in practice, Fascist govt's are esstianlly free-enterprise so there should not be any real penaltys regarding wealth generation.

Due to extensive secret police networks under a fascist regime, enemy espionage missions to steal techology never succeed.

Now this sentence has some problems. Overall axis intelligence, esp counter-intelligence was not particularly effective or efficent when compared to the allies. Allied nations(including the heathen Marxists , were far more effective overall at gathering information, recruiting spies etc than the converse. If anything Fascits type mods should penalize there own spies rather than rewarding them with an immunity that really never existed historically. Fascist spies may be effective at repression, terror and such, but that did not grant them anything special as far as intel\counter intell vs there major opponents.

On Industry
Contrary to some popluar assumptions, Fascist war machines are not particalular efficent. Factually, axis war production techniques were generally inferior and inefficent for a variety of reasons beyond the scope of this thread. Even russia was far superior to (German) war production techiques and principles. Mods should refect this with a *modest* penalty in productin. (im not sure if wealth production and *Actual hardware production can be disconnected from one another in the editors-thats a subtle but imprtortant distinction
-HOWEVER-
I dont kknow if this is even possible but some sort of technological or *military unit production bonus* would be appriate IF it could be applied selectively. Maybe in mobiliation rates or bull war fatigue would achive what im thinking of here

On War weariness.
Here I agree that war weariness should not be an issue for fascits powers, however taken with what I said above, that should come with a cost attached to it. The fact is fascist regimes are quite effective when it comes to deploying and mainting large, motivated armies for long perids-Italians notwithstanding

On resistance
Here im a little less certain. Does the willingness to use brutal, direct power to suppress dissent eliminate ressitance or increase it? IF history is correct, dissent is greater if anything-not less, despite a efficent and brutal effort to suppress it. This ones debateable how to implement but prob resistance should be made a thorn in the side for any fascist mod maker to consider

On Technology,-generally fascism should recieve perhaps some sort of bonus on the military side of things to reflect there comptence, or superiority in this area. Theres no real dichotomy between a semi-inefficent industy and yet possessing a high level of technical prowess. Post war Russia would be a good example of this duality, Despite the fact the Russia had some world class designers and engineers scientists etc, the hobbled inefficent economy of communism, prevented the large scale application of those peoples skills. Democratic type societies should be best in this regards. Fascism should be above communsim yet perhaps slighty behind Democracy to simulate the effects of a less open system, yet one thats not as stiffling as say, communism is known for.

Great Leaders
Why not give Fascists a slightly higher chance to get a great leaders? That would reflect the tendancy of a more war-oriented society to produce above average share of highly motivated, compotent field commanders. That might not be out of line or innacruate either. I dont think that parameter is tweakable or ever will be-just my 2cents tho

Now its my understanding that the current editor is not very complete or flexible and ive seen many ask for tools to make historically accurate mods doable that cannot be atm? Maybe its not yet possible to make fine tuned mods yet-im new to this too, but wanted to add some of my own thoughts to the discussion.

 

[Achiles]

I wanna install both the Fascism and Fundamentalsim patch so I can have both governments in the game. Anybody know how to do this?

 

[Uteno]

The essential thing here is that you can't both claim that the fascist mod is for history and play balance AND have a government that essentially portrays fascism as perfect.
So, the following suggestions for realism;

Required tech; y the new tech? Nationalism would do fine as a prerequisite.

Corruption; monarch level seems appropriate, cosidering how much embezzlement went on.

Conscription; considering how overboard the fascisms went w/conscription, I think that 4 would be right.

Because fascist govs were very into militarism, they should have something akin to all units starting veteran or elite in cities w/ barracks. Obviously thats a big deal, but it gets weighed out.

Lets face it -- the fascist govs severely weakened the cultures of their countries. No culture should be generated. And each unit surpressing discontent (max 4?) should lower culture by one, since the prefferred methods involve machine guns and grenades.

Also, I would say that research should be very, very weak. The fascist govs essentially chased all the scientists away, and then concentrated on moronic projects like sound guns and such. No research seems too harsh, but maybe research at 10% the normal rate is fair.

As for resistance percentages.... what has already been said doesn't suffice. No city will EVER totally submit to a gov that feels they are totally inferior. And what's this about fasicst cities resisting? Lets face it... they went belly up the second they were beat in the world war, both to the commies and the us/uk. I would say assimilation from fascist to any other should be VERY rapid.

Now, I doubt I could make most of this into a modpack.... but what do people think about balance? Essentially, this is true to the real fascist govs and provides a good government for a quick conquer the world rush. Too strong? Too weak?

 

[Achiles]

Uteno I think you put in place some penalties that are not only inaccurate but overly harsh. I have been thinking on this and here is how I think a fascist government should probably be laid out in the game.

First of all Fascism basically tries to alter the makeup of a nations government and society to gear it completely towards war. To do that the society and organizations that govern that society MUST be mobilized completely behind the rulers and their goals. Persicution of minority groups within that society and redressing of supposed "wrongs" against the state are generally the prefered methods. Another popular method is to completely indoctrinate the populace and especially the children to the values and beliefs of the rulers. The end result is a completly loyal populace. A populace willing to accept almost anything for what the rulers deam to be the good of the state. A nation geared towards one thing above all else. War and it's execution to completion. The positive effect of this is that the people are very resistant to anemy propoganda, the military is usually VERY well motivated if not well trained, and the people are willing to suffer the full horrors of war far longer than most nations would. The downward effects are that culture suffers tremendously as all that does not conform is crushed and creativity and invetivness, except when under strict government guidance, almost ceases to exist. Also conquered peoples are almost never assimilated into the society at large and thus remain a constant source of problems for fascist states. Next though a free enterprise is allowed to continue it generally does suffer because it is now under strict government supervision. Finally Fascist foreign spy networks seem to have a tendancy to be easily discovered and turned to the other side.


So here is what I would do.

required technology would be nationalism.
POSTIVES
Propoganda and spying resistance would be pretty high especially to comunist states.
All units start as Veteran without a barracks and as Elite with a barracks.
War weariness is almost nill but not completly removed as even a fascist will only tolerate so much.
Police state high but not higher than comunism, maybe 1 lower.
Military support about equal with monarchy.

NEGATIVES
Culture generation is REALLY low in fascism and decreases by 1 point for every unit serving a police function that city.
Maybe a small trade and income hit.
Corruption is high in Fascism about as bad as monarchy maybe a little worse.
Conquered people can NOT be assimilated and can not be happy, only content or unhappy.
More resisters.
Much harder to pull spy jobs in other civs, little easier in comunist states.

Thats it. I think it pretty well reflects the pros and cons of a Fascist state. I didn't touch science because I felt a fascist state should get bonuses for militery tech but take a big hit in non-military tech and I didn't think that could be implemented. So if you like to conquer the world and have LOTS of income before switching this is the gov for you.

 

[Uteno]

Hmmm... overly harsh, you say? I suppose you mean in cutting down science, stopping culture, and implementing those stringent assimilation rules.... well, actually, I think those are the most realistic of all the conditions.... but we are trying to reach a mix of historical and gameplay balance.

Remember, again that I'm not thingking of this government's use in terms of "I got nationalism and now I'm gonna be fascist and stay there until the game ends." I'm thinking specifically in terms of "I have my forces and economy poised, I have the important indy age techs, now I'll switch to fascism and conquer the world." I really never won Civ 2 by conquest, and haven't even tried for Civ 3... but if I wanted to, I'd love to switch to that gov't.

After all... culture? It affects your borders and relations. If you don't plan on there being other nations, not a problem. If you can't conquer the world w/ elite but low tech units... well, I you shouldn't have switched. And as for assimilation, the cities may be useless, but you just want to conquer the world.

If you plan on conquering the world, you shouldn't have to worry about whether your pop will assimilate or not.

"Propoganda and spying resistance would be pretty high especially to comunist states. "

All this stuff about fascist invulnrability to communism annoys me. Propaganda, yes, I agree. But other spying should be simple... with so much discontent, the fascist govs always had thousands of resistance cells to deal w/

"Maybe a small trade and income hit. "

If you were using this just to balance, I could see it; but as a realism thing, it makes zero sense. I think my negatives work better.

"Corruption is high in Fascism about as bad as monarchy maybe a little worse. "

Have you played as a monarchy yet? I couldn't bear to put MORE corruption on them...

"Much harder to pull spy jobs in other civs, little easier in comunist states. "
Once again, this silly communist thing... they were ideologically enemies, but this isn't like you gain magical powers when confronting your nemesis...

"I didn't touch science because I felt a fascist state should get bonuses for militery tech but take a big hit in non-military tech and I didn't think that could be implemented. "

Heh.. thats exactly the way I felt as I was mentally composing a solution. And then I thought, 'wait, what were the military innovations of the fascists?' What comes to mind are jets. And they weren't even half decent jets... they were jet prototypes.

Really, the fascist govs didn't make any science at all... they concentrated on military, true, but think about the stuff they were looking at. Really big mirrors, endothermic reactions, sound guns, gigantic cannons... impracticle and useless. All their scientists left, the remainders were stupid....

 

[pravda]

Well I have just done so much reading on this post, my eyes are blurry, and I can't even be bothered to say anything now.

But my two cents says, facism is a real and acceptable form of government, it has been responsible for virtually no atrocities in comparrison to say christianity, yet the game has chapels and cathedrals.

Not long ago a Dictatorship slaughtered 800,000 rowandans, yet nobody minds dictatorship rule.

I am personally not interested in a fascist patch, and I didn't even bother to check the web site, Hitler is a symbol of Facism so it is acceptable hitler was big and bold on the front page, just as maybe a communist patch may have had Lenon or Stalin, yet I am sure noone would have complained about that.

I say lighten up, there have been far worse leaders than Hitler in the ages, and far worse governments than facism. So include the patch and anyone who doesn't want it, they aren't forced to.

 

[Comrade Juhon]

Hey, anybody know what happened to Dresden in 1945?
It got demolished! Throughout WWII Nazi bombers killed 50,000 British civilians. I am not saying that was good, but compared to the U.S.A. ("International Policeman of the World") and Britains bombing campaign against Dresden, it pales into significance. The Allied bombers killed 130,000 civilians in a FEW DAYS!!! So, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys? I'm just saying that under a "democratic" society, I can be arrested for treason if the queen tells me to go and fight and I say no!!!The U.S.A thinks it is the good guys but look at this list of countries in which they have killed innumerable amounts of civilians, directly and indirectly since WWII!!!

Vietnam
Iraq
Afghanistan
Korea

and economically!!!

All of Asia (exc. Japan)
All Africa
Russia


I don't think they are the good guys, do you?

 

[Kino]

Let's avoid the philosophical and moral argument. It's an unanswerable debate, and will only bog down a worthwhile discussion on game balance here. Afterall, this is a forum for the game, not politics.

I agree with some of the suggestions made about balancing the fascist government, but many of those proposals just aren't possible within the scope of the game editor (as it exists now). I can't give a government a bonus when producing war-related units or city improvements. The way to accomplish that is to choose a civilization with the "Militaristic" characteristic (i.e. Rome, Germany, Japan, Aztecs, Persia, or Zulu). However, using the editor you *can* change it so that any civilization is Militaristic, but there is no way to apply those characteristics to a government choice. The best you can do is to turn down War Weariness (Fascism in my version has none), allow a high military police number (Fascism in my version has 4, tied for highest), and allow for military unit support (Fascism uses the wartime government standard). Within the limits of the editor, I've tried to do my best to represent the style of government and balance it with the other governments in question. Essentially, Fascism is the best economic wartime government. Communism, however, has strengths over Fascism when it comes to espionage (but it leaks like a sieve economically).

Achiles had a question about installing both the Fascism and Fundamentalism patches. I'll try to package the two of them into one patch; but until I do that, here's another method:

1) Install the Fascist Patch as described in the ReadMe file.
2) Then open the Civ3Fund.doc file that I included with the Fundamentalism patch.
3) Then open up your Civilization directory and open Civ3mod.bic
4) In the toolbar at the top, go to "Rules" then "Edit Rules" then hit the "Governments" tab.
5) You'll now see the screen used to edit/create governments. Hit the Add button and manually add Fundamentalism.
6) Fill in the Fundamentalism government with the stats I provided in the Civ3Fund.doc file.
7) Save and enjoy. You'll now have both governments.

 

[Ilspana]

Originally posted by Comrade Juhon
Hey, anybody know what happened to Dresden in 1945?
It got demolished! Throughout WWII Nazi bombers killed 50,000 British civilians. I am not saying that was good, but compared to the U.S.A. ("International Policeman of the World") and Britains bombing campaign against Dresden, it pales into significance. The Allied bombers killed 130,000 civilians in a FEW DAYS!!! So, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys? I'm just saying that under a "democratic" society, I can be arrested for treason if the queen tells me to go and fight and I say no!!!The U.S.A thinks it is the good guys but look at this list of countries in which they have killed innumerable amounts of civilians, directly and indirectly since WWII!!!

Vietnam
Iraq
Afghanistan
Korea

and economically!!!

All of Asia (exc. Japan)
All Africa
Russia


I don't think they are the good guys, do you?

I wish some people would stop thinking in such simple terms.

When looking at humanity, its completely useless to label things as being purely good or evil. If it werent for that way of thinking, wars wouldnt be started purely over hatred for what a particular people see as evil.

But governments wont let people think this way, and advise them to tell their children that their attackers or oppressors are unequivocally and undeniably evil, just because its better for their peace of mind. Could you imagine how kids would feel if they knew that their attackers werent all bad, and that the conflict could be started over a simple misunderstanding? They'd be utterly confused! So just feed them this easy to understand propoganda. Then they'll know exactly what to feel, and they'll know exactly what to tell their children when they're confused when another attack takes place. It'll keep going on and on like that until it's hard copied into our subconcious that everyone that attacks us is evil and our only option is to eliminate them. After all, if they're undeniably evil, how can we reason with them?

The attacks on america and many other nations through the years, by terrorists, have been terrible. That can't be denied. However, they were not senseless. They had a very human motive, whether it was revenge, ambition, or just jealousy. When people realise that, and I hope they have the stomach to process that fact, they will realise that their enemy isnt someone they can just reach out and strike at, or bomb from miles and miles away. The enemy is within ourselves, within our own primal, human nature.

If we could leave such useless emotions behind, we would become divine and there would finally be some kind of peace. Personally, I dont think humanity has what it takes. Our race as it stands is a monkey with a revolver in his hands. We've overstepped our boundaries and our advanced tools/weapons will only be as useful to us as our primitive minds.