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Fastest Domination Victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Blatc, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I haven't played much beyond map rolling, just the HoF submission and the initial T89 run to test things out, but including previous experiences I'd say Korea is a great choice for this scenario. Just add to your 'flavour' descriptions the fact that they are good for TR science and that puts them top-7 for me.
    Next attempt, I expect to remove the Dutch and the Huns, possibly Morocco (civs that forced me into a defensive war).
     
  2. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    T119 for my 2nd game (Arabia DomV, Deity, standard, GP+)

    Comparing with vadalaz notes on T113 game:
    *16 horses in my first 3 cities
    *1st expo was out of the way, with no unique lux (forcing me to research Masonry before Chivalry), but picked up 8 horses
    *I sold my first 4 horses knowing I had lots more available soon
    *Chivalry at T89, skipping BW and Sailing
    *spent 2gpt for 2 horses, putting me at 18 at T89; East army had 9 CA and 1 horseman, West army had 7 CA, 1 horseman, 1 warrior, 2 pikemen
    *3rd capital T90, West and East armies had 2 capitals each remaining
    *easily had enough gold to upgrade 16 chariots; I had close to 3,000 gold, without any iron. I did not rush buy any chariots
    *1-2 early CS quests, nothing substantial
    *1st capital T73 or so - vadalaz was T60
    *had 2 DoF: 1 with immediate neighbour very early that would run out before I attacked them (3rd war), the other with Korea who was far away
    *built GW guild
    *West army did their job by T113, however, the French were a HUGE hassle with Great Wall on the rough terrain East side of the map and 8 cities - 6 self-founded and 2 captured (including Seoul). I had to deal with Great Wall while attacking Seoul, Lyons, and Paris, with pesky expos nearby as I moved on Paris.

    I'll make at least one more attempt (without France), as I think I have a shot at breaking T110 on this challenge.
     
  3. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    T105 for my 3rd and final Arabia DomV (Deity, standard, GP+) game. Currently, the only faster HoF game is with the Huns.

    *10 horses start, no horses for my 2nd expo, so I traded gpt for horses for a while (most of the game, really, if you include horses from peace deals)
    *I never built granaries in any city
    *expos went Monument, Library
    *did not tech Sailing, so just 1 caravan. Did not tech BW until after Chivalry.
    *I didn't build GW guild and, with no CS help, I had to wait on culture to finish Liberty, delaying Chivalry
    *as I was waiting on culture to finish Liberty, I researched Masonry and 2/3 of Construction. Then, absentmindedly, I annexed a capital that delayed finishing Liberty by 1 turn, resulting in Chivalry on T87
    *captured 2 capitals before reaching Chivalry, then split into 2 armies while starting to build up 3rd army
    *had about 3,500 gold by Chivalry, enough for all upgrades and (later) put some gold into well-positioned CS to help war. Late game, bought units, but it was overkill at that point (24 Camel Archers at the end of the game)
    *did a better job of getting AI to attack each other in this game
    *God-King pantheon, didn't found

    Sub-T100 is doable and I hope to see vadalaz or another player get there. I'm happy to get down to T105 and will stop there for this Arabia Challenge, and take a bit of a break. If players want to start another AI DomV challenge - KingV had mentioned Babylon - I'd be interesting in starting up in late-February.

    Arabia T105 DomV.jpg
     
  4. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Very nice! 5 capitals in 18 turns is really efficient. Well played!

    I'm taking a break from this myself, but I'll revisit this challenge soon. I've also been pondering how to integrate a Camel Archer attack into a Deity science game. That wouldn't beat any records but there's just something I really like about warlike science victories.
     
  5. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Thanks for the write-ups @Blatc! Good work!
     
  6. KingVercingetorix

    KingVercingetorix Chieftain

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    I've tried to replicate what both vadalaz and Blatc have done but I can't get anywhere close. In my current Arabia game it is turn 85 and I have just taken my first capital. My army consists of 9 Chariots, 1 CB and 1 Warrior. I lost my other Warrior because I risked taking the city with it. This army is on the way to take another city and I'm planning to build a 2nd army.

    I find when I don't research Philosophy and build NC my BPT is too low. Culture has also been a bottleneck in this game. Chivalry won't come until around turn 100 for me. In CDG #25 I got it mid 90s with the NC.

    Building wise all my cities contain a Monument, Library and Bazaar. Medina is yet to finish the granary because I settled near Lake Victoria. The cities put most of their production into Chariots. My capital has put production into Caravans for internal trade routes and 1 Warrior. It never had to build a settler because I was able to buy my first around turn 30.

    CivilizationV_DX11_2018_02_09_02_24_33_837.png
    • Loads of Iron and luxuries means GPT is good.
    • Happiness is okay thanks to CS allies.
    • Religion consists of Desert Folklore, Initiation Rites, and Holy Warriors. I won't enhance it.
    • 5 workers. 2 stolen from Pacal, 1 from a CS, 1 taken from barbs, and the free Liberty one. I returned 2 workers for CS influence.
    • My units XP farmed on a city state before attacking Venice. Is this necessary?
    Does my capital lack the production necessary? Apart from Gold, horses and Wheat I'm not working any other production tiles. Are a Calendar heavy starts like this a problem? I was also wondering if Aqueducts/Workshops are needed when playing like this?
     
  7. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    KingV, some comments and suggestions:
    *it's okay to lose a warrior or other melee unit if it helps speed up the capital capture, with the obvious caveat that you had 2 or more melee units available. Consider using Scouts and warriors to distract and draw fire, but obviously have another warrior/pike/horseman that will take the city. You'll sometimes have a stretch where your self-founded cities cannot built another CA, at which time producing another scout/warrior/spearman/etc. is worthwhile for this specific scenario
    *don't bother with Philosophy, but do make an effort to do a better job with external trade routes; do NOT send interval trade routes.
    *Writers Guild gives good value if culture isn't looking good
    *either build the granary early or not at all. In my T105 game, I did not build any granaries.
    *switch to Great Plains or Great Plains Plus maps. I suggest GP+. Roll maps until you get a good start in one of the 4 middle spots (not the mountains to the West or the forest to the East)
    *don't spend gold on a Settler (unless you have an insane amount of gold somehow), that's nearly 2 chariot archers you could have bought, or saved until upgrade time
    *you want more production for your capital - tiles with 2+ food and 1+ production: Salt, Cattle, Plains Wheat, Sheep, Deer. GP maps are good for this. Most if not all tiles should have at least 1 production. You want to grow to ~6 quickly in capital, and 4-5 quickly in expos (consider buying 3-food tiles when at 1-2 pop), after which growth isn't that important and eventually becomes detrimental due to unhappiness. Look at how far away Chivalry is and when further growth will no longer speed up reaching Chivalry, shift tiles to stagnate growth and focus on production, with secondary emphasis on gold. Late game, you can shift emphasis more towards gold, as the units you build may have to travel a ways, while purchasing a unit in a nearby city is likely faster.
    *don't XP farm CS. Your first few Chariot Archers should go after barb camps, until you have enough to pursue the first capital. If no barb camps, they can scout some uncharted territory that will help with future troop movement
    *calendar heavy start is weak. Stable resource, plains wheat, and Salt heavy start is strong
    *absolutely do not build aqueducts or watermills (again, my T105 game I didn't build any granaries); same for workshops. With enough resources, Stable can be worthwhile in some cities, especially at a time when you're low on horses and cannot build CA, but will want to pump them out quickly later
    *you're building a granary and caravan on T85 when you have 5 horses available - don't do this. Build horse units, melee, bazaar, or happiness buildings. The time to build granaries and caravans has long passed.
     
  8. KingVercingetorix

    KingVercingetorix Chieftain

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    Extremely helpful information, thanks a lot. I will implement it from the start when I play a new map. I'll roll a GP+ map. The Pangaea I'm currently playing is using the game options you recommended in a previous post. The capitals are bunched up quite a lot and terrain is friendly for domination. The starting location lacks the production for it to be top tier map.

    I wanted to send my caravan to Pacal originally. Then Venice took control of Geneva and I thought It would be risky to send the caravan in case it gets snatched. I figured growth would help with the science so I sent it to Mecca. When settling cities in future attempts I'll look for those high production areas. Medina in my current game has being growing fairly quickly even when I'm not working Lake Victoria. Would you recommend building farms at all?

    I built the Writers Guild and it knocked some turns of the final Liberty policy. I was able to reach Chivalry on turn 102. The science bulb knocked research time from 11 turns to 3. Is there ever a time where an Academy is better than bulbing?

    I bought my first settler because I was sitting on 700 gold. Meeting CS, ruins, pillaging Venice's caravan and selling a luxury in a peace deal all provided me with a lot of early game gold. Do you build your settler before or after Collective Rule?

    CivilizationV_DX11_2018_02_09_18_54_24_223.png
    • Damascus is stagnating, there are some decent production tiles to work in that city. When I reach Metal Casting is there an argument for building a forge? In an ideal world I'd be close to winning by the time I reach Metal Casting but this game is obviously rather slow. I have 4 iron tiles there. Mecca and Medina are working their best production/gold tiles as well as Bazaar/Writers' Guild.
    • My army of 9 Chariots, 1 CB and 1 Warrior were able to take Lisbon without a casualty. The reason I took so long was because my worker and warrior took a while getting there. Lisbon had a CB garrisoned and I wasn't sure if that plus city bombardment can one-shot my Chariots. Is there a calculation to predict damage dealt by the enemy?
    • Are roads necessary? I currently have 2 workers linking Venice and Lisbon together. I also have a worker part building roads up to Palenque. When my 2nd army is built they can then reach their destination faster.
    • What should I do with the gold I've accumulated. I have 9 Chariots to turn into Camels, that is around 1500 I think. I have 2 cities building Pikeman. These Pikeman will join my first army. I will upgrade my Warrior to a Swordsman also. Do your armies contain Horseman as well as Camels? I can buy some extra horses from a friend if necessary.
    • What is your opinion of wiping out a civ? Once I take Palenque from Pacal his other city would block my army in. I either take his city or research optics and swim the army to their next target.
    • What would you recommend for social policies. Left side Honour seems like the best bet.
    • After Pacal I'd like my 2nd army to go after The Ottomans. They have Great Wall and they have also settled 2 cities North/Northwest of Venice. Should I raze those cities or just farm XP. A potential 3rd army could get XP from them. I want my first army to fight against Germany.
    An awful lot of questions but I'd like to get your perspective on what is the best move!
     
  9. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    You'll notice on the GP maps that you'll usually have more trade route options. Consider the turn number, along with when and who you plan to attack, and look for opportunities to send to one AI (and they may send one back), then ~20 turns later send it to a different AI (who may send one back).

    Yes, build farms, but again keep in mind that you want to grow quickly to about 4-6 pop, after which you want to shift emphasis to production; so, you don't need 5+ farms. With a good enough map, almost every tile you work in your first 3 cities will have a resource.

    GS bulb will shave off 7-8 turns. An academy can only be better if it will shave off 8+ turns and I think that'll only be possible with Babylon. As a rough example, if your GS bulb value is 320 (8 turns x 40 per turn average), the academy would need to be planted for ~40 turns (about turn 60 for you) to reach the same value.

    In different attempts I built my settler both before and after Collective Rule. I think either can be okay, it depends how the game is playing out, which ruins you got - an early culture ruin and building monument 2nd can get you to CR pretty quick, while no culture ruin but perhaps a well-timed pop ruin, good production, and nothing imperative to build lends itself to building or at least starting the settler before CR. Either way, for this specific scenario, I think that gold could be better spent (ex. buy a 3-food tile to accelerate expo growth, buy 1 chariot archer to help with a CS barb camp request, which will go fast on the GP maps), and I'll point out that in most games I would strongly suggest using it on a Settler.

    I suppose it's possible to have enough iron tiles, and a gap with no horses available, that building a forge might make sense, but most likely no. There are very few buildings you actually need to build in this fast DomV challenge.

    Not sure on calculation to predict damage dealt. Look for opportunities to steal an enemy worker at the start of each war.

    Roads will help with gold and reinforcements; however, when there are very big gaps between cities, it might not be worth it. That's a call you've got to make in-game.

    Yes, I used 1-2 horseman with my armies, for their speed and ability to be outside of city range and swoop in. Late game, gold can be very useful in getting CS allies that will help reduce enemy units (perhaps before you've even reached that area).

    Capture and raze a city if it helps you move on faster. I razed 2 expos in my T105 game. Wipe out a civ if necessary, though doing that with the very first civ can help your gold.

    Social policies after Liberty, either Commerce to Merc or left side honour (extra GG to citadel into Great Wall city).

    There are very few scenarios where farming XP is the most efficient play.
     
  10. KingVercingetorix

    KingVercingetorix Chieftain

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    An update on my game

    It is turn 117 and I control 5 capitals. Just Amsterdam, Marrakech and Istanbul left. The only time I've been faster is playing as Atilla.

    CivilizationV_DX11_2018_02_09_22_16_42_754.png
    I bribed my friend William into fighting Germany a few turns before my army arrived. I didn't have a proper melee unit nearby but thankfully I had a Scout. The Scout was previously making use of the open borders I had with Germany. It is impossible for me to connect this city with roads, Portuguese expos are blocking the way.

    CivilizationV_DX11_2018_02_09_22_30_28_479.png
    The Maya barely offered any resistance. They went Piety and are very weak. Venice and Portugal also went down the Piety route. All my opponents were hand selected and it looks like it is paying off.

    I think my next target is going to be The Ottomans. I bribed them to attack Morocco and they took Marrakech and some expos. The army that took Germany can go for Marrakech while the army that took Palenque can go for Istanbul. I'm going to research Optics so my army can embark and get to their target. Suleiman has his Janissaries online so hopefully they won't be too much of a problem. If all goes well I'll then backstab The Netherlands and all my units can merge into one giant army.

    I think I reached a sweet spot in my capital regarding production/food/gold/faith/specialists. It is stagnating at 13 pop. Ideally though it should be less than that right?

    Would you being interested in giving this map a go yourself? Not the most ideal but it is one of the better Pangaea maps I've rolled. Lots of horses available. In the Arabia CDG you managed 136 right, I think this map has the potential for faster. If I could win by 150/160 it would be my fastest non Hunnic Deity win.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  11. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I think you'll find the Dutch and Ottomans much more challenging than the Mayans/Venice,etc, especially if they have the Great Wall. I eventually elected to go with civs that had lower expansion 'flavour', like Sweden.
    If the game is fast enough, Chivalry is essentially an end-point (though tech towards Steel, as you are doing). There's no need to grow beyond the population that gets you to Chivalry the fastest, nor any need to build food/science buildings beyond that needed to get to Chivalry fast. Your happiness looks good, so it's not wrong to have whatever pop you currently have.
    You should be using that gold, you have over 1600 gold and 12 horses available.
    I'll pass on giving the map a go.
     
  12. KingVercingetorix

    KingVercingetorix Chieftain

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    That map ended up a turn 147 victory. For my skill level I'm pretty pleased with a win that fast. Especially when compared with what I managed in CDG #25. In that game I found myself empire building so my Camels lost steam very quickly.

    CivilizationV_DX11_2018_02_10_04_01_10_783.png
    • Marrakech fell on turn 136 and Istanbul on turn 137. My armies combined to then liberate Rabat. Morocco were so pleased they gave me open borders. I feel that the gap between taking Palenque and these cities is too large. Maneuvering my units was really tricky.
    • The Ottomans were a bit of a challenge, getting through some of their additional cities and Janissaries. What really helped in the war was bribing him to attack every civ in the game. His happiness ended up being so bad he had barbs spawning.
    • The Netherlands were still using fairly old units so he didn't put up much of a fight. The war with him was delayed so I could afford to buy Bucharest as an ally. I traded 800 of William's gold for GPT and then declared war afterwards.
    I'll start up a GP+ map next and take all of your advice from the get go. Who are your picks for civs to fight? I like Morocco, The Maya, and Portugal. Venice steal CS so I don't want them again. Germany in my experience are fairly weak, he does go Liberty however and could ICS. I might also avoid The Netherlands and The Ottomans. You mentioned Sweden, he usually goes Honour and could give me Statue of Zeus.

    In this game I found I had too many horses for the production of my 3 original cities. Should I annex cities so I can build units? Also I was wondering what was best regarding spies. In this game I got a spy around turn 100. I opted to rig CS instead of steal techs. Is getting to Muskets earlier better than CS influence?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  13. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I think it is funny to see Byzantium listed twice on your short list! Their pony is pretty good early, basically a slow horseman that gets a defensive bonus from hills and forest, and no city attack penalty.

    Unlike Arabia, there does not seem to be a key tech for Byzantium. Obviously you want a map with plenty of horses, but what else would be important for Theodora? Would you still play Liberty and go straight through it for a GP? If so, what GP?
     
  14. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    The civdata link I posted earlier in the thread has important characteristics; I'd recommend picking civs with low expansion #s. Venice is a great civ to have; stealing CS isn't that big a deal, and is actually preventable since you can kill their MoV pretty easily with horse units. The fastest game will involve having to deal with as few expos as possible.

    Yes, annex cities, so you can
    1) improve the tiles being selected
    2) sell useless buildings
    3) build units (likely courthouse first)
    4) buy units

    Spy really won't do much; I was putting them in my final target. Really wasn't thinking about stealing techs at all, as it wouldn't matter. Using spy to help ally a nearby CS that will help fight would make sense.
     
  15. Manpanzee

    Manpanzee Prince

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    Just chiming in to say that water domination with Polynesia is some of the most fun I ever had playing Civ V, and I really recommend it. Postgame recap of my t106 victory is here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/g-major-lx.547118/#post-13811407

    I think sub-100 is possible. One of the big constraints I remember was getting the navy out once Compass hit, since nothing upgrades into Galleasses. I was able to save up thousands of gold, but with two cities I could still only buy two Galleasses per turn. An option that never occurred to me back then is to build extra Settlers and throw down some more cities purely for faster Galleass purchasing. And then you could just give away these cities to the AI once the fleet is in the water. That should shave a couple turns.
     
  16. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    Thanks for sharing Manpanzee, I may yet give water dom/Polynesia a try. I had very briefly started attempting DomV with Babylon, but soon enough changed my mind and have been attempting to get a T200 or faster SV with them.
     
  17. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    T94 HoF rules DomV with Austria on Lakes. Didn't reach Machinery, CBs were enough.

    20191008140236_1.jpg

    - Didn't get good worker steals or TR pillages, but I was the first to find El Dorado around T15. Used some of the gold to buy a worker and saved the rest
    - You need a luxury- and production-heavy start, as well as some early DoFs and/or peace deals for this to work well
    - The plan was to spam enough archers for 3 armies before researching Construction. The first two armies were gifted to CS allies, and they upgraded the archers into CBs. I upgraded the third army myself and later built a fourth one
    - It could be that militaristic city-states are the first to upgrade units, as Sofia in my game had CBs on turn 41-42. The next CS I married was one of the cultural ones and they only upgraded my archers after I'd teched Construction. The cultural CS didn't upgrade my warriors into swordsmen, although it did have 4 iron.
    - Full Liberty with a Great Merchant finisher to secure some Mercantile allies for happiness. Capital BO: Scout x2 - Monument - Granary - Archers with a quick Settler after Collective rule. Expos built Archers first, then monuments at some point. I think archers are more important early on.

    It could've been a sub-90, but Jakarta was a bit difficult to capture. Gajah had too much iron and in the end he also had Knights, so I was cutting it close.

    Having a lot of fun with Austria lately. Gifting archers to CSs for upgrades basically allows you to circumvent unit supply penalty to get 3 armies very quickly. Marrying isn't that much more expensive than upgrading archers into CBs yourself, and you also get units that the CSs built themselves.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  18. Nizef

    Nizef Prince

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    I am astonished! After the HOF-approval, would you care to share the inital t0 game file?
     
  19. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Yeah I'll do it, and there will be 4 saves on HOF as well when the game's accepted and the site is updated. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post any saves publicly until then. The rules say "you may not share maps with other players." I'm pretty certain that just means that you should roll your own maps when you submit games to HOF, but I'd rather wait until @aafritz17 or someone else from the HOF staff can confirm it.
     
  20. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    You can allow other players to play any of your maps (or they can just grab your turn 0 save off the HOF server, once your game is accepted), but other players cannot use one of your maps for a HOF submission of their own.
     

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