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Fastest Science Victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lightning5555, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    It appears kind of arbitrary but yes, it's quite certain that once they're down to 1 city, they won't give you anything. But I'm much more interested in learning what makes the AIs want to *consider* peace
     
  2. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    Hmm, if that's the case, then the only possibility is that in the first game they had added a CS that I had not met.

    Anyone experimented with DoWing an AI and just never making peace? Like a game-long CS boot camp, but an actual AI so also a source of gold from caravans and pillaging? To a lesser extent, also a source of GGs that can be used to connect more luxuries. I believe the diplo hit is from when you DOW, so no impact on the Civs you hadn't met, and they cannot Denounce you if you never make peace! (in DomV games I like to say they can't denounce you if you wipe them out!)
     
  3. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I botched the screen shot, but can confirm the AI (Venice) can offer you gold in a peace deal when they do not have any tradeable cities.
     
  4. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    Attached
     

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  5. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    If you ask peace from AI just after taking their Capital or couple of turns later they usually wont give you anything. Like if they have 5 cities and they are willing to give all or most of them to you just before taking capital but after you take Capital they are not willing to give anything (usually). Sometimes they will give cities even after taking capital if they have lots of cities but amount they will give in peace deal after taking Capital is much smaller. Also some other factors likely will affect their calculations
     
  6. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    Normally true, however in my current game I conquered India's capital and they immediately offered one of their two remaining cities in the peace deal. I was surprised, as I expected to have to wait 5+ turns for such a deal.
     
  7. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Well yes, I've had 1-4 gpt offers as well in the early game from 1-city AIs, but never anything really substantial. I believe it depends on your own gpt, I remember it'd always work on lower difficulties when I settled on Gems etc. I suppose it has to be early enough in the game that they see your economy as vastly superior to theirs or something? There's this in GlobalAIDiplomacyDefines.xml:
    Code:
    -<Row Name="WAR_PROJECTION_THEIR_ECONOMIC_STRENGTH_PATHETIC">
    <Value>50</Value>
    </Row>
    
    ...
    
    -<Row Name="WAR_PROJECTION_THEIR_ECONOMIC_STRENGTH_IMMENSE">
    <Value>-50</Value>
    </Row>
    Similar values for military strength range from -100 to 100. If the war projection is "defeat" or "destruction", their willingness to offer peace goes way up. I can't find what affects the actual value of the offer though.
     
  8. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    For anyone interested in playing or willing to offer feedback, here is a T122 save using a heavily replayed map that Manpanzee submitted to HoF. I can offer more detail to those interested, but in short I declared war on the 3 closest neighbours and didn't make peace until:
    *India, took capital (good wonders!) and 3rd city in peace deal (sold expo). This was done with 3 SComposites, several archers, and a Pathfinder, with lots of worker baiting next to a GG citadel.
    *Venice, just used for XP and a couple caravans/gold. They gave 0 gold in peace deal, but had offered a small amount earlier when I was leaving them alone :crazyeye:
    *now moving on Sweden, whom we've been at war with for nearly 100 consecutive turns, but with very little happening - that's about to change!

    I delayed scouting the entire map until after peace with India, so 2 Eastern civs did not see me capture any cities. I've done this way back in some DCLs. This may be a mistake, as meeting them would reduce my tech costs, though I forget by how much. I have to think having at least 2 good trading partners is quite valuable.

    I did not deviate from science tech path (Astronomy before Construction; T115 Machinery) and only built archers when cities had spare time, unless a barb camp warranted purchasing an archer.

    Re: when AI will make peace. Sweden was not interested in peace for a while and wanted me to give them things for peace. After I made peace with Venice, leaving Sweden as only war left, they asked for peace, offering gold. This was triggered by either my peace deal with Venice or coincidental timing of my troops moving towards Sweden (not that many yet).

    Feel free to experiment with the map and offer suggestions. Do you suggest capturing any more cities (is it worth it?) or using war to, essentially, generate several thousand gold, which is my current thinking and reason for my army composition. My interest is in learning more about war-assisted SV and applying it to other maps.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    In a previous attempt, Venice offered 6gpt and a lump sum, for a total >400, so close to 15gpt value around T60. That's what really caught my eye. Based on what you're writing, it was because in that game I'd recently made a peace deal for gold with another AI, which spiked my gold #s. Otherwise, it's been smaller offers like my screenshot or more commonly nothing at all. There doesn't seem to be much connection to their remaining units or their capital being surrounded and capable of being conquered within a couple turns.
     
  10. unrendered

    unrendered Chieftain

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    how can i know which city is the last one to produce gs when deciding where to build porcelain?
     
  11. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    There's no way to check in game for the last produced GS, but it doesn't matter. What city you build PT in doesn't just increase the cost of the next GS produced in that particular city -- it increases the cost of the next GS in every city of your empire. So build PT wherever you like.

    I try to build as many GS point-giving wonders in the city with the best Great Person Point multipliers (Garden + National Epic city -- all other multipliers (Pisa, Rationalism and ideologies) operate empire-wide). PT gives 2 GS points, which are most valuable wherever you have the best multipliers (even if that might have been a city that recently spawned a GS).
     
  12. unrendered

    unrendered Chieftain

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    well im interested since in acken's freedom guide he mentions calculating which city is the last one to produce natural gs and to build porcelain there (unless im misunderstanding it)
     
  13. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    PT increases GS point, so building it in the last city will make that one spawn sooner. It isn't that hard to calculate, just remember each one spawned increases counter by 100
     
  14. garmeth

    garmeth Chieftain

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    Thank you for the explanations. Yea I just replay the Babinksi map to see how changing certain things and doing certain things alters finish time. So yes, the early secularism was with Poland. I figure if I can't get a sub 200 on that map with 4 replays, I have a 0% chance to do it on another map even if it was better. This whole process has been very educational for me.

    Finally, I was able to achieve the sub 200.

    Spoiler :


    It turns out my main problem was that I had literally 0 clue how to play plastics to victory but now I think I understand it decently. I replayed this map from education to the end. One mistake I realized I made on the previous game was that I went workshops after education instead of bee lining straight for astronomy.

    I also learned that with Poland, you can pretty much neglect cultural CS and only focus on faith/maritime/mercantile cs. However, this map was ridiculous with Uluru + Mt. Sinai and allowed for the player to more or less ignore faith allies. In the past I was pretending like I was playing a normal civ that had to generate a ton of culture to have a chance at even finishing rationalism and freedom, Poland can do this easily in time to win a sub 200 without even a single cultural CS ally in the early game. So all I needed to do was focus on maritime CS and then ally Hong-Kong when necessary for happiness. I compared my turns to the save files in Babinski's 193 HoF SV and discovered that I got unlucky with my maritime CS quests in the early game, so his population was 1-2 above mine for the entire game in most cities. This allowed him to construct universities and every subsequent building faster as he could work more production tiles. I also got worst caravans from neighboring AI even though I made peace with Theodora on the earliest possible turn after improving the silver with the earliest worker steal possible so I guess that's just unlucky too.

    The advice to ignore the top half of the tree before satellites really helped too. This allowed me to pace my bulbs and reach Hubble early. In the game that I failed the sub 200, I was basically forced to bulb like 2 GS two turns in a row in order to be able to build hubble / apollo before 200. I think I wasted several thousand beakers with that method due to overflow.

    Another huge help like you said, was to wait to build Hubble if I had an extra GS coming. For some reason I didn't think Hubble affected subsequent GS production but I was wrong. This game I had to stop building Hubble for a turn to generate my last GS. With all of this, I actually had more GS than I needed to finish. I ended up popping like 3 on the same turn at the very end because I apparently didn't start bulbing soon enough so I think if I even replayed my turn 165 plastics to victory I may be able to shave off somewhere between 3-9 turns. I still don't think I did the bulbing even close to correct.

    Lets say that I ignore the top of the tree until satellites, surely if I uses a GS on navigation, I'm going to waste thousands of beakers no matter what correct? This is because the sum of navigation and archaeology is extremely small and less than 5* my beaker output. So wouldn't it be best to research a few of those techs first when my bpt is lower?

    Edit: Hilariously, I still got beat to printing press. This game it was only by 1 turn though.
     
  15. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    You can bulb a few GS leading up to Apollo/Hubble, then tech normally (don't bulb) to pick up smaller techs, before resuming bulbing to the finish.
     
  16. Manpanzee

    Manpanzee Prince

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    Nice, fun to see this map replayed. I have very distinct memories of this one -- first ~100 turns were great, then I hit the worst midgame gold crunch I've ever experienced on Deity. I remember doing everything in my power to avoid losing beakers to gold shortage, which seems like it just... shouldn't happen.

    El Dorado + Shoshone does give you a million options, you can really do whatever you want on this map. Good one to experiment with if you're into replaying stuff.
     
  17. Ribannah

    Ribannah Fighter Druid

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    That is why you choose Freedom and get Rocketry a bit later than you would with Order. You can start on those leftover cheap techs earlier.
     
  18. Ribannah

    Ribannah Fighter Druid

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    Yes, on a desert map. I had over 300 faith per turn already without divine inspiration in TSG135 on Prince.
     
  19. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I've started playing HoF style as I understand it (endless re-rolls to get great map, no replaying) and made a couple submissions. In playing as Korea, I struggled to ever get LToP or Porcelain Tower, which is a loss of roughly 1 GW, 1 GA, and 2-3 GS. My opinion may be different if I'd put together a perfect start with Korea, but my current view is they're an A- Science civ, behind Babylon, Poland, and Shoshone whose earlier advantages help you get these crucial wonders.

    Had 1 game where Brazil built LToP T113; fastest I've seen.

    Minor tweaks I've finally made: selling strategic resources 1 at a time for 2gpt and getting the tech that reveals iron earlier. I'm now using a mouse when I play, so selling 1 at a time is slightly less annoying/time consuming than it used to be.

    Pic is from a Shoshone game I just submitted. I realized some room for improvement afterwards (wasn't going to have quite enough culture or faith on time, used 2 GE's on Hubble and Statue of Liberty needed to finish Rationalism), but for most of the game executed well. Worth noting my initial impression was that this map may not be good enough: lots of desert/plains without river near my capital and around the Faith NW to the South making it not worth settling.

    Thanks to the helpful posters in this thread; combined with my replay/comparisons, I feel my science game has improved significantly.
     

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  20. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I think Shoshone on Great Plains could eliminate their closet neighbour very early, with some luck and great execution, paving the way for a wide empire with relatively low diplomatic hit. I just made an attempt where I chose unit upgrade with first ruin and got 3 Scomposites (2 should be easy to get, 3 requires some luck, 4 would be rare). I forward settled closest neighbour with my starting settler, captured their settler before they could found 2nd city (this requires some luck), then used it to worker-bait. Unfortunately, their capital was on a hill and defense was at 24 with an archer in the city; if capital was on flat land, I think I could have pulled it off.

    If someone could pull this off, the diplo hit would be:
    +15-100+ Warmongering Penalties - You would have declared war before meeting 2nd civ, so nothing from that. You would have captured 1 city (from a 1-city civ) and this would only apply to civs you met within first 40-50 turns. As you wouldn't go scouting very far until after eliminating neighbour, this is likely 2-4 of the remaining 6 civs, so potentially 0 warmonger penalty for 2-4 civs. .
    +35 They believe we are building new Cities too aggressively (from remaining civs), which you would also get with a peaceful, wide empire.

    Anyone else attempted this?
     

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