Fastest Science Victory

[Blatc]

T181 with a spare GS is an amazing result, congrats! I admire your patience - personally I can never force myself to replay a map, eventhough it's likely the most effective way to learn to play optimally. Would love to read your thoughts regarding optimal bulbing and mid-late game build order.

Thanks vadalaz.
One spare GS can be a bit misleading. I waited for a T178 natural GS to use my GE on Hubble; I had very little 'extra' research, so there wasn't much room to improve on this specifically - maybe 1 turn? Two or more extra GS at the end, however, is a big deal!

Bulbing
I've been starting my bulbing too late. By extension, I've been continuing to build buildings too late, and to a lesser degree not working all specialist spots early enough. As I wrote previously, I'd been trying to build every specialist building in every city. In this game, I hit Plastics T154, waited until T155 for Mercantilism to purchase 5/6 Labs, and then a couple turns later purchased the 6th. In a previous play-through, I bought 3 and built 3 - this was a mistake. The cities I'd used to build labs (500 hammers) could have spent less turns building a bank or stock exchange (360 hammers), bought Labs a few turns later, and switched to building science earlier AND worked more specialist slots.
Mid-game build, I've started thinking about how many more buildings I'll finish before bulbing and making decisions ~50 turns in advanced re: build order. For example, I used to try and get all +production buildings ASAP, which often led to no Stock Exchange (sometimes no Bank!) or building them as I bulb. Bearing in mind that I already had workshops, watermills, and stables (if worthwhile), in this final play-through I elected to build +gold buildings over windmill and factory in expos (capital still built every specialist building except musicians guild).
Rough turn numbers
T154 Plastics
T155 bought 5/6 labs
T158-159 bought 6th lab
T164-165 started bulbing GS (I had planted 0 and used 1 on Plastics), so that's 16-17 turns from the finish and 27 turns from Plastics to finish
I forget my # of GS, but I did produce one GE (and faith bought one) and faith-bought 3 GS. So, 2 GS from Hubble, 3 from faith, 1 each from Porcelain Tower and LToP = 7...probably 11 used late-game.
In the future, I'll likely aim to start bulbing 16-20 turns out from expected finish, targeting 20 but willing to wait and finish up a 2-turn tech, ex. Flight. If things are going very well, that should be 8-10 turns after Plastics. Someday I might even start using RAs again, though I find so many other uses for gold for 90% of the game.

I previously put more emphasis on purchasing buildings (Universities, Observatories, and Public Schools in particular), but have shifted that emphasis somewhat to putting cities in a position to build things quicker. For a lower production (ex. jungle) city, that means buying some riverside hills and, whereas I was in the habit of always working the highest yield food tiles, now balance that a bit more to ensure there is at least some production taking place. I'm not talking about early growth, but once the city is say 8+ pop and the decision is between production and a 2-3 yield food tile (as opposed to 4 food).

Metal Casting before Education
I was used to teching Education, Astronomy (if applicable), and then Metal Casting. I believe that got me to Printing Press earlier and made LToP secure; however, I think Metal Casting first (especially with 6+ cities) wins out in the long-run, and might catch up around Scientific Theory. I did have to replay and bribe-start 2 wars, as someone was building LToP T12x (I don't check what other capitals are building and play in Strategic view), so if playing without replays in the future I may have a tough decision on tech order.

I went 6-city NC, rather than 4-city NC + 2. I had considerable gold from natural wonders (and knowing where they'd be), so that skews things, but I found things much smoother getting all cities planted before NC and getting Metal Casting before Education.

THANK YOU to anyone posting awesome maps like this Spain one!!!

 

[poxpower]

You should try the Fountain of Youth map I posted.
It was on page 9: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=563022&page=9

I believe it's the most rare wonder, certainly it changes the game the most. +20 happiness on Deity unlocks a lot of new strategies. I didn't do that well with it though but maybe it's because I didn't play well, or it might be that the terrain is bad. I dunno.

Give it a try, definitely a hilarious experience.

 

[garmeth]

Blatc, can you elaborate on metal casting before education? What is the benefit?

Also, are you guys ignoring world's fair on the Babinksi map? With a bit of optimization I can def. squeeze out a turn 205 victory but sub 200 is proving to be rather difficult for me. I can get the NC up early and get worker steals but my mid to end game appears to suffer. I generated 10,000 culture through great writers in the world's fair so I could get patronage policies early but I'm thinking that may not be worth it.

 

[Blatc]

I tried the Fountain of Youth map. As you mention, the terrain just isn't good enough for a fast SV. Might be more fun to go DomV on that map.

Metal Casting before Education:
*build Workshops before Universities. In comparing games, I found it made for a smoother build order for the rest of the game
*gives your newer cities more time to grow before working University specialist spots
*better timing on Ironworks (before LToP). When I tech Education, Astronomy, and then Metal Casting, I am building LToP before Ironworks and then there's a lot going on in a short period of time, sometimes delaying Ironworks to after Worlds Fair
*overall, the earlier you build +production and +food buildings, the more value you get out of them. While overemphasis on +food buildings and food tiles can lead to unhappiness, an early game emphasis on +production doesn't have any such negative side effect.

I found Consulates and Scholasticism very helpful on the Babinski map.

 

[garmeth]

I tried the Fountain of Youth map. As you mention, the terrain just isn't good enough for a fast SV. Might be more fun to go DomV on that map.

Metal Casting before Education:
*build Workshops before Universities. In comparing games, I found it made for a smoother build order for the rest of the game
*gives your newer cities more time to grow before working University specialist spots
*better timing on Ironworks (before LToP). When I tech Education, Astronomy, and then Metal Casting, I am building LToP before Ironworks and then there's a lot going on in a short period of time, sometimes delaying Ironworks to after Worlds Fair
*overall, the earlier you build +production and +food buildings, the more value you get out of them. While overemphasis on +food buildings and food tiles can lead to unhappiness, an early game emphasis on +production doesn't have any such negative side effect.

I found Consulates and Scholasticism very helpful on the Babinski map.

Fascinating, I knew super fast universities weren't very important in satellite cities but I thought that surely if you delayed a university in the capital it would gimp your finishing time. So if you go for metal casting first, how do you spend money in the early game? Does all money go to CS, or do you save up 2000 + to rush buy several universities since you arrived at late education or do you literally save a ton of money for RAs after education and just hard build the universities? How many public schools do you buy?

Also, how do you manage growth in the city furthest north on the Babinski map? I find that if I want it to really grow I need to send 2 food caravans to it, but this is somewhat of an issue because that means I don't have early caravans to my capital and to my 5th city. Do you just rush buy all tiles around the lake and spend ~600. I can see why Babinski built Angkor Wat, tile buying is really a problem on this map. Also I have 0 idea how he got Borobodur. On my map, Pedro is always a super runaway and will snipe all wonders within 4-5 turns of researching them. Borobodur on turn 80 and what not. One time I finished printing press 1 turn after him, he completes globe theatre in 4 turns and then LToP 2 turns before me in the next few turns but that was the worst that happened.

 

[Iamteehee]

I don't think growth is much of an issue as you make it out to be. Having a 13-15 pop endgame city seems fine to me, as long as you can work all specialist slots.

 

[garmeth]

I don't think growth is much of an issue as you make it out to be. Having a 13-15 pop endgame city seems fine to me, as long as you can work all specialist slots.

Hmm ok, I thought 22 ish was mandatory

 

[stormtrooper412]

Blatc, can you elaborate on metal casting before education? What is the benefit?

Also, are you guys ignoring world's fair on the Babinksi map? With a bit of optimization I can def. squeeze out a turn 205 victory but sub 200 is proving to be rather difficult for me. I can get the NC up early and get worker steals but my mid to end game appears to suffer. I generated 10,000 culture through great writers in the world's fair so I could get patronage policies early but I'm thinking that may not be worth it.

yeah if you're doing Liberty, then you pretty much need to go Workshops before Universities. You will end up having both at around T120

 

[Blatc]

Fascinating, I knew super fast universities weren't very important in satellite cities but I thought that surely if you delayed a university in the capital it would gimp your finishing time. So if you go for metal casting first, how do you spend money in the early game? Does all money go to CS, or do you save up 2000 + to rush buy several universities since you arrived at late education or do you literally save a ton of money for RAs after education and just hard build the universities? How many public schools do you buy?

Also, how do you manage growth in the city furthest north on the Babinski map? I find that if I want it to really grow I need to send 2 food caravans to it, but this is somewhat of an issue because that means I don't have early caravans to my capital and to my 5th city. Do you just rush buy all tiles around the lake and spend ~600. I can see why Babinski built Angkor Wat, tile buying is really a problem on this map. Also I have 0 idea how he got Borobodur. On my map, Pedro is always a super runaway and will snipe all wonders within 4-5 turns of researching them. Borobodur on turn 80 and what not. One time I finished printing press 1 turn after him, he completes globe theatre in 4 turns and then LToP 2 turns before me in the next few turns but that was the worst that happened.

Your first sentence is what I used to think as well, and it's things like this that often lead me to replay and compare. Try thinking of it this way: if you are managing happiness well, then you can grow quite a bit after Civil Service. Going to Metal Casting before Education means more turns between discovering Civil Service and working the University specialist slots --> a small loss of GS points (very few modifiers in play at this point) for growth at what may be a key point.

Spending money in the early game (in my most recent games):
*purchasing 1 or more settlers
*purchasing 1-3 libraries for NC timing
*purchasing tiles
*purchasing happiness via city states; might also be putting gold into Cultural CS if pushing Patronage
*may purchase University and/or Observatory in low production city (jungle) or city that is just really far behind (last one planted with low to moderate production and lots of things to build, stable/garden/etc.)

I also struggled with the northern city location on the Babinski map; I didn't settle there when I went 4-city NC. That's a question for Babinski, who crushed that map!!

yeah if you're doing Liberty, then you pretty much need to go Workshops before Universities. You will end up having both at around T120

Agreed, though I was doing so with Tradition. The more cities you have, the more value I see in going to Metal Casting before Education. Less cities means less issues with build order and national wonder timing, and usually easier to just purchase necessary buildings.

 

[garmeth]

Your first sentence is what I used to think as well, and it's things like this that often lead me to replay and compare. Try thinking of it this way: if you are managing happiness well, then you can grow quite a bit after Civil Service. Going to Metal Casting before Education means more turns between discovering Civil Service and working the University specialist slots --> a small loss of GS points (very few modifiers in play at this point) for growth at what may be a key point.

Spending money in the early game (in my most recent games):
*purchasing 1 or more settlers
*purchasing 1-3 libraries for NC timing
*purchasing tiles
*purchasing happiness via city states; might also be putting gold into Cultural CS if pushing Patronage
*may purchase University and/or Observatory in low production city (jungle) or city that is just really far behind (last one planted with low to moderate production and lots of things to build, stable/garden/etc.)

I also struggled with the northern city location on the Babinski map; I didn't settle there when I went 4-city NC. That's a question for Babinski, who crushed that map!!



Agreed, though I was doing so with Tradition. The more cities you have, the more value I see in going to Metal Casting before Education. Less cities means less issues with build order and national wonder timing, and usually easier to just purchase necessary buildings.

I think I'm getting close to sub 200 with your help. I just won on 205 with the map but I lost LToP to Theodora 5-6 turns after the world's congress was founded.. I believe this would have granted me 3 extra GS. 1 from the ability, and 2 from the 25% modifier considering I had two GS coming at 6 and 7 turns away. It may have only granted me 2 though. I did end up accidentally producing a great merchant at like turn 195... That was a huge mistake.

Analyzing the northern city I don't think it really matters that its low pop as Iamteehee said, it ended up at 18 pop with 222 science ( and oxford ) whereas my highest satellite city had 245 science. Interestingly enough my 5th city surpassed it with 20 pop. At the end of the game, I had 1600 beakers. Scholasticism is really, really powerful with 8 CS allies. Without world's fair I ended up with 2 extra policies so I don't think world's fair is worth it except for maybe the golden age points.

Is my printing press timing slow? I was not the civ to found the world's fair the two times I finished this map. I am always 1-2 turns late as I find it rather difficult to reach printing press quickly after astronomy.

The metal casting before education played out well. Buying a workshop in the fifth city helps extremely. A few more things I know for sure I can fix, barbarians stalled me for a long time connecting the two silver on one of my cities and I should have probably rush bought two workers or bought an extra building or two in the 4th and 5th cities. There is a tonnn of gold on this map that you can spend before the public school phase.

My benchmarks:

• Turn 72: 4 City National College
• Turn 108: Education ( researched after metal casting )
• Turn 118: Astronomy
• Turn 129: Printing Press
• Turn 146: Scientific Theory
• Turn 153: Freedom Ideology
• Turn 170: Plastics
• Turn 205: Victory

I rush bought all labs and had way more than enough gold by the end of the game due to the OP map. Does anyone know what portion of that game is most improvable? I was only able to generate 10 great scientists from GPP, 2 from faith, 2 from hubble, and 1 from PT. Perhaps without the great merchant and with LToP this would be ~195?

Also the fact that I lost LToP to an AI with a turn 205 science victory is hilarious. I feel like that wonder is actually just RNG at this point if the AI feels like building it 4-6 turns after the world's congress. I should probably be reaching it first but it costs sooooo many hammers. I hate building LToP and Porcelain Tower. Warsaw on this map probably has the most production and growth that a city in this game can possibly have and the leaning tower still takes like 10 turns. Insane

What benchmarks should I shoot for to get 190?

 

[Iamteehee]

I think I got printing press quite a bit earlier than you did (I went 5cities, edu before metal casting) so I think you might have been able to get LToP if you were faster. I'm not sure though, 6 turns after WC is quite fast for an AI.

Assuming 6 cities and metal casting before universities, the benchmarks might look like this for this map:
T70:NC
T100: edu
T110: astronomy
T122shP
T135: ST
T160: plastics (probably with bulb)

 

[Babinski]

Your first sentence is what I used to think as well, and it's things like this that often lead me to replay and compare. Try thinking of it this way: if you are managing happiness well, then you can grow quite a bit after Civil Service. Going to Metal Casting before Education means more turns between discovering Civil Service and working the University specialist slots --> a small loss of GS points (very few modifiers in play at this point) for growth at what may be a key point.

I went Education first-built Universities and got the science bonus-didn't work the specialist slots if it hindered growth, e.g. as long as there was a good food tile to work (which improved growth time to next pop), I didn't fill the specialist slots.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I struggle to understand how you guys manage to get from Edu to ST so quickly, that's by far the slowest part of my game, even if I do get Unis at around 110 (assuming Edu was around 100) the earliest I ever got to ST was 145-ish which tends to translate into ~180 Plastics, maaaaybe less with bulbs but I don't think I ever got Plastics before ~175 likely because I never manage that good ST

 

[Babinski]

I struggle to understand how you guys manage to get from Edu to ST so quickly, that's by far the slowest part of my game, even if I do get Unis at around 110 (assuming Edu was around 100) the earliest I ever got to ST was 145-ish which tends to translate into ~180 Plastics, maaaaybe less with bulbs but I don't think I ever got Plastics before ~175 likely because I never manage that good ST

I would say it comes down to micromanaging better. To do everything just slightly better, more than using a different strategy. You want a fast Education through a good and early developed empire to keep up the momentum and reach ST and Plastics fast aswell.

 

[consentient]

Babinski, would you consider making an LP of your play in the Education -> Sci Theo period, since you are (I think?) the current record holder for fast SV?

 

[vadalaz]

I struggle to understand how you guys manage to get from Edu to ST so quickly, that's by far the slowest part of my game, even if I do get Unis at around 110 (assuming Edu was around 100) the earliest I ever got to ST was 145-ish which tends to translate into ~180 Plastics, maaaaybe less with bulbs but I don't think I ever got Plastics before ~175 likely because I never manage that good ST

For fast Sci Theory imo the biggest game changer is getting quick Secularism, something like T110-115 is fantastic, T120-125 is very good also. That's one of the reasons Poland, Babylon and Korea do so well - Poland gets the free SP, Babylon enters Renaissance earlier, Korea has their own Secularism. Similarly, fast Free thought really helps with Plastics timing. Or alternatively, you could invest in Scholasticism pre-Renaissance.

 

[poxpower]

How early do you guys start to work workshop/market slots? Do you work them as soon as you get +2 science from specialist?
I usually wait until I get freedom but maybe that's too slow?

What balance do you work tiles at?
Like what's better, a 4 food tile, or a 1 food, 3 production, or a 2/2 or what?

Is there some ratio that you go for in terms of food vs hammers or is it just better to full-food because in the end that translates to more of everything?

I always struggle with that. Want to get buildings out, but want to grow cities. It always seem to just even out in the end no matter what but maybe you guys crunched more numbers.

 

[Acken]

I sometimes work one in poor production location. Otherwise I usually wait for the ideology then switch to specialists and start making TPs at the same time.

As far as production is concerned it's a balance between the two. No ratio, just want to have both the queue and the growth going at decent speed. You can also switch it around depending on what is necessary. If you have some production spike for a necessary building you may focus a bit on production more for a few turns (this happens often imo on wide game since you'll buy less buildings). And on the contrary if you have no urgency you may want to get more food in that window.
Also always watch the increase ratios. Getting from 5prod to 8prod by working a mine will often have a lot more effect than going from 20 to 24 food by working a farm.

 

[consentient]

Wait, you actually make Trading Posts to pick up that Rationalism bonus? I've never heard of anyone actually doing that, and assumed that no one did because it meant dislodging farms (for that little bit more of growth) and mines (which are needed for big production stuff). This is another interesting thing to learn.

 

[Browd]

It is yet another micromanagement "trick." The principal benefit of mass TPs comes during the run-up to your GS bulb-fest (starting no earlier than 8 turns after all of your research labs are up and running), when you would also be maxing out your use of specialists (for Secularism beakers) and shifting city production to Science -- all in an effort to eke out just a few more beakers during that crucial period, which beakers are then multiplied by the various beaker multipliers and ultimately determine your yield from GS bulbs.

In the early and mid-game, when population growth is so critical, you benefit much more from farms. But the benefits from farms tail off a bit in the later game, as food from internal trade routes and Civil Society specialists become more important (and city populations get so high that growth rates slow anyway). So the premise behind this "trick" is to leave farms everywhere until maybe 30 turns before you expect to start your GS bulb-fest. You then take every worker you have and mass convert farms to TPs, starting in your capital (assuming that's where NC is located) and any observatory cities, to get the most "bang" from your TP "buck." Of course, it takes forever to build TPs, so if you go this route, make sure you have many, many workers to deploy simultaneously.