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Fastest Science Victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lightning5555, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    Will need an expansion update to provide beaker comparison for the T-hawk huge game.
     
  2. cbucks

    cbucks Chieftain

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    got spain map to 177 using seven city

    turn 86 renaissance with oracle to get secularism

    turn 130 freedom

    turn 154 all labs completed

    turn 177 finish

    I keep going from ideology and making a stop to get chemistry and fertilizer - after reading thawks latest write up i'm unsure if that is correct. , could get labs 3-4 turns quicker if skip fertilizer
     

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  3. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    I think Fertilizer before Plastics won't help. By then the ~2 food per city from pastures/plantations is nothing. You shouldn't have non-freshwater farms; cities should be located for freshwater farms; dry grassland/plains should get trading posts instead.

    Chemistry before Plastics probably breaks even either way. Mostly for observatories; each observatory-turn gained by the Chemistry hammers makes up for one lab-turn. Chemistry also helps to finish Big Ben before Plastics.
     
  4. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    I believe the consensus has long been that for fast SV Fertilizer before Plastics is a small mistake, and to take it immediately after. However, there can be timing scenarios where you will delay purchasing the labs until you have completed Big Ben and/or Mercantilism, which could allow picking up Fertilizer first. I am sometimes in a situation where I have to choose between using 1 or 2 GS leading into Plastics, with both being slightly off from ideal timing (i.e. if using 2, I will delay purchasing Labs by 1 or more turns to wait for Big Ben/Merc), in which case I could convince myself to take Chemistry and possibly fertilizer before using the 2 GS. More recently, I have tended towards using 1 GS and teching Chemistry/Fertilizer immediately after.
     
  5. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    Brief details and pics from T190 Babylon Deity SV, submitted to HoF

    Spoiler Details :

    5-city NC. The 2 Northern expos took a little while to walk the units to, and had some delays completing the road through a CS.

    Songhai wiped out Venice and Korea, but nobody ever did much about it. After early wars to steal workers and pillage a few caravans, I was peaceful.

    Religion was very strong. Fairly standard choices, for me: DF, Tithe, happiness from Gardens (2 best buildings n/a), faith from wonders, reliquary. I built Borobudur. Rather than plant for more faith, I spread with 2 prophets; the gold from Tithe helped make up for not getting Machu.
    I built a late Petra in 1st expo T98, which is very uncommon on Deity.
    Arabia completed Porcelain Tower on T153.

    16 GS
    1 from Writing
    9 produced by cities
    3 from wonders
    3 from faith

    9th city-produced GS was T188; Apollo 187, Hubble T188.
    Planted GS from Writing and 1st city-produced GS. Chose New Deal.

    Key timings
    T95 or 96 Education
    T139 Sci Theory (no bulbs)
    T165 Plastics (1x GS), bought 5 labs immediately
    T190 SV

    Opened Rationalism as 7th policy (not including Oracle) 1 turn after reaching Astronomy and had strong culture coming in from CS allies to get me through Rationalism policies quickly.

    Babylon T190 SV pic 1.jpg Babylon T190 SV pic 2.jpg

     
  6. Notacop

    Notacop Chieftain

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    Just randomly stumbled back on this thread. I just bought Civ 4 and was looking for T-hawks Civ 4 site and found this thread again. I'm glad Blatc and T-hawk kept at it, really impressive results guys. Made me want to try a game out on settler and see how fast it can go. It's a bit of a different play style, but pretty funny at how quick everything takes. A couple questions for Blatc and T-hawk (and anyone else too):

    -I'm noticing my cities are consistently lower pop than results posted here, by anywhere from 1-4. I'm sure part of the problem is that I'm slower to settle the cities and improve tiles, but I don't think that's solely the issue. Blatc, you seem especially good at growing large cities, can you speak to how you are able to grow so big? Do you primarily work food tiles? Do you focus on early maritime city state alliances?
    -At what point do you start working specialist tiles? I started about 8 turns before plastics for a good bulb into plastics, but not sure if that's right. I feel like it should be earlier, but that would sacrifice growth and production, so not sure.
    -Without the shrine-rebuild trick, and assuming no great engineer, about how long does building apollo and hubble take? Apollo usually takes me 7-9 turns but hubble takes 10-12 turns, assuming 100+ production. I feel like that's too slow.

    Any feedback appreciated. Thanks guys, hope you keep going at it.
     
  7. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    Notacop, most of my experience and advice would be for Deity play, which I'd happily share if people have specific questions about Deity SV.
    As a general answer: found early, micromanage constantly, and make the best decision you can for each specific situation.
    Practice and improve your early game. Replay the first 50 turns of a game several times and note what you did differently to improve.
    Post a picture of a situation where you are having trouble with a decision, providing context, and I'm sure you'll get some advice. Otherwise, the answer to most of your questions is "it depends on the situation."
     
  8. Notacop

    Notacop Chieftain

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    Good to hear, because I could use some expertise...
    I went and tried Babinski's Poland great plains map (he posted it here on the second or third page). Capitol build order was scout x3 -> bought settler -> settler x3. Got 5 worker steals early, (another one later on) and each settler got 1-3 forest chops. First and second city settled around t24-26, next t36ish, last at t44. 5 city nc at t79, education at t90ish, rationalism finished at scientific theory t131 (1 bulb), plastics t161 (1 bulb), bought all labs right away. Along the way was a fair amount of meticulous worker and citizen micro. I've uploaded 4 screenshots: my game at t100 and plastics (t161) and Garmeth's game of the same map (he uploaded a video on youtube) at t100 and plastics (t160). At t100, population is pretty close (his fifth city is like pop 5 since he settled it t80ish), then at plastics I'm just too far behind. I was working primarily farm and stable resource tiles, which I assume he was too (didn't watch his whole video of him picking each tile to work). I had 4 food caravans going to Warsaw and then switched to 4 production to Warsaw at around t130-140. Garmeth got early consulates while I went early mercantilism, so he probably had more maritime alliances (I think I had at least 3 at any given time), but I had swords into plowshares and he had some random ai religion. My total science topped out at about 1350 beakers (his was a little over 1500) even with all specialist buildings and working 90-95% trading posts. I didn't play to the end but would have won ~t204, while Garmeth won t196. To me, finishing 40+ turns after plastics means something is wrong. Part of it was not bulbing correctly (I didn't anticipate bulbs being so low), and the other was low population, as evidenced by the posted screenshots. I tried to keep most cities growing in 7 or less turns, with cap growing in 5 or less (for most of the game). Blatc, when do you stop growing your cities? When all your cities have labs? How would you have adapted your post plastics game in this situation? Or is it not recoverable? Anything that I'm doing wrong jumping out at you?

    If you are still up for giving some advice, I think the best way may be for me to play a map you've completed and are familiar with so that I can compare as I go. Would you be up for something like this? If so, do you have a particular map in mind?

    Thanks Blatc, I appreciate any input.

    Edit: Forgot to mention, I had continuous WLTKDs from about t90 til the end. I don't think Garmeth had the same, maybe 70% of the time.
     

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  9. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    Notacop, sounds like you got off to a great start. I'll highlight things that may (or may not) be a issue:
    1) you finished Rationalism at scientific theory and also used 1 GS bulb? If so, one or both of these would arguably have been better used on Radio, Plastics (2x bulb), or end game at higher value.
    2) I played that map many times and recall that growing the northern expo was an issue, requiring caravan help
    3) you could have continued with food caravans until ~T160
    4) researching Acoustics on T100 has me questioning your tech order, as you couldn't have completed Astronomy and Printing Press since T90

    I tend not to stop city growth until quite late, and it is situational. Upon a new pop growth, I evaluate how many turns until the next pop growth and consider how many specialist tiles and trading posts that city will likely end up with. I'm guessing you didn't derive much value from the Freedom food policy. I'm surprised that you had WLTKD, SiTP, and 3 maritime allies for a long time and struggled with pop.

    A general point to really take to heart: early population growth snowballs. You should be careful with your worker actions and thinking about buying tiles to try and squeeze out 1-2 more pop before universities. Sometimes, having a worker chop a forest can get a helpful tile expansion earlier, saving you a bit of money on buying tiles.

    It's possible your tech order and policy order have room for improvement. Please outline your tech order for the above game, and also what policies you took.
     
  10. Notacop

    Notacop Chieftain

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    Blatc,
    1. I'm sorry I misspoke. I didn't actually finish rationalism at scientific theory, rather I finished five policies into rationalism. I usually save the rationalism finisher for satellites, as I did in this game. Knowing this, do you still prefer to 2x bulb plastics instead 1x bulb ST 1x bulb plastics?
    2. Yes, low food location. I had to have a food caravan go there pretty much the entire game. The rest of the caravans went to cap.
    3. Good to know. I experimented with early hammer routes to cap to try to knock out all those midgame buildings and wonders faster. It shaved off a turn or two, but sacrificed growth.Might as well keep the routes as food.
    4. Tech order: Mining (to sell silver) -> Pottery -> AH -> lux techs -> writing -> Mathematics -> Philosophy -> Civil Service -> Education -> started to go to Astronomy, but saw I wasn't going to get there before next policy came up, so went accoustics to go straight into rationalism. Except I forgot how many extra policies Poland gets so I probably could have just gone to astronomy. From Astronomy normal tech path: Printing Press -> Architecture -> Scientific Theory -> Electricity -> Oxford Radio -> Industrialization to finish Big Ben before Plastics -> Plastics -> bulb up to Rocketry -> Rationalism finisher on Satellites etc. Policies: Full tradition -> open Commerce -> get to mercantilism with Poland UA -> Rationalism opener from UA, secularism to humanism to free thought -> Sovereignty from UA -> Freedom, Avant Garde, Civil Society, Universal Suffrage, Capitalism, volunteer army -> then other policies in commerce from UA. Freedom would be finished towards satellites, and I save 2-3 great writers for rationalism finisher. Last few games I haven't been able to fit in SoL, as I usually GE Hubble.

    It's funny you mention early growth snowballing, as I was just experimenting with that. I played a few partial games to education, trying out different things. One was growing cities to size 4-5 as fast as possible, even if it meant working almost no hammer tiles and taking longer to build granary and library. The other was to work primarily hammer tiles to finish the early growth buildings as fast as possible and then grow from there. The cities I grew fast early had less buildings completed, but by education the expansions had almost 2 pop more, and the capitol almost 3. I didn't play out the rest of those, but I imagine the gap would be much wider towards the end. Also from those games, I learned that I'm putting more value into early game buildings than they are actually worth, such as the market. It is important, but mostly for the access to banks and stock exchanges and for the specialist slot. I realized I can put them off for a bit and still be fine. This is what happened in the Poland game. When building something I thought would be important, I shifted over to some production tiles, sacrificing growth for a few turns. I think this happened more than I realized at the time.

    Another thing that I'm still figuring out is the end game bulbing. I thought the right way to bulb was to count the number of scientists I will get before the end, add up all their bulb values plus the beakers for x amount of turns, then compare that value to all the tech costs left. Then I know when I can start bulbing. I think it usually ends up being that I need to wait until radar to bulb. This feels too late. Is this the proper way to bulb? At what point do you typically start bulbing? Maybe I am not getting enough great scientists (8 natural, 4 from pisa, pt, hubble, 2 faith, minus 2 bulbs at scientific theory/plastics). On the turn I get labs in every city, I fill up all specialists slots, work trading posts, and produce science in expansions (cap finishes up gold and production buildings if I don't end up buying them). Is this too early? Should I try to keep growing until 8 turns before I can bulb?

    I really appreciate you helping me Blatc. Your next beer is on me ;)
     
  11. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    2x bulb into Plastics is most likely better than 1 ST and 1 Plastics, but that's not necessarily a huge mistake and unrelated to your population and beaker per turn issues. Same with teching towards Astronomy after Education, which you already know.

    It's worthwhile to look at whether working production tiles will result in more food overall by finishing a granary (or watermill or caravan) earlier. The most common scenario for me is checking different tile configurations after a pop growth while building a Granary, comparing the hammers/food to determine if working production tiles and slowing/stagnating growth for a few turns will result in an overall boost in hammers/food. If food breaks even but you're ahead in hammers, then it's still worthwhile. I might also be okay with a small net loss of food accompanied by a large boost in production, but mostly I want a net increase in food. The more Granary resources you will immediately work, the quicker you make up for the lost food. Being diligent on small details like this helps get just a bit more pop growth by Universities and is likely why in my very best games pop will seem impressive. At the same time, stay aware of current and potential future happiness sources, as well as WLTKD resources. Get into the habit of checking if AI has a spare luxury every single turn. Plan ahead so you don't accidentally trade the AI for a resource that you can get from a useful CS in the near future (ex. already friends with CS with achievable quest).

    There are great posts earlier in this thread on bulbing; the only thing that I would add would be to replay a game to help refine your finish. Another thing to work on: are you getting all available specialist slots for your final bulbs? Can you trade gpt for gold to the AI and buy the remaining buildings?

    My very best games (most likely) have 3 faith GS. I make religion decisions with that end goal (5,000 or 6,000 faith) in mind.

    You're probably stagnating growth and switching over to almost 100% science focus too early and should be aiming to grow more. I am usually not 'full on' science while bulbing towards the Apollo and Hubble techs, though I am approaching that point.
     
  12. Notacop

    Notacop Chieftain

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    Whew, did it. Turn 196 Babinski Poland map.

    I replayed from my previous t100 save. Much better result this time. At plastics, cap was 3-4 bigger, expos were 2-3 bigger. At the end of the game is was cap 8 bigger, expos 5-7. It made a huge difference. I realized the main reason I had low pop the first time was because of the damn tile picker. It gave me river tiles only a handful of times, instead opting for inland 1f1h tiles....useless. I ended buying so many tiles that the tile costs rose to over 300 gold lol. Getting those river tiles made it a lot easier to grow though. I was able to grow every 4-6 turns for every city. Also had every lux so endless WLTKDs, and of course Swords into Plowshares. I let the cities grow up until satellites, and then started switching to trading posts. The thing I didn't anticipate was that I couldn't make trading posts until after I decided to stopped growing, otherwise the trading post would displace a food tile and growth would slow down. I did put trading posts on hills earlier, but I like working trading posts that have 1 food just for slower starvation. Guess that's just something that comes with practice. I also think I bulbed not great but good enough. There was one part where I had to spend 2 turns to research combined arms, but oh well. I ended up getting 15 gs (2x bulb on plastics), 3 from faith, 9 natural, but missed pt. Was saving it for the end but Venice took it t168, oops. If only the game showed that he took the rationalism opener...

    Yes, I always get all specialist buildings except for musicians guild. Expos had no problem getting them all, but I had to buy a few in the cap at the end. Was fine on gold at the end, only needed to borrow gold for 2 spaceship parts, and the AIs had more than plenty. I accidentally borrowed more than I needed, that's why I have so much extra.

    You were right, I was switching to full science too early and inhibited growth. I guess it's just a trade-off between growing more and getting some extra science vs getting full value bulbs sooner. Thanks for your help Blatc. Now I just have to practice.
     

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  13. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    Notacop, what were your religion picks? It may be worthwhile to experiment/replay with some different choices to compare and learn. A religious building that nets 2 culture (and faith and happiness) can help with tile expansion and might get you to the same end-game pop. Similarly, compare building the two main guilds in the capital vs. expos. Did you hit 6,000 faith? Finish 2-3 turns after your final natural GS?
     
  14. cbucks

    cbucks Chieftain

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    decided to try that spain map again and got it down to turn 173 - all city states quest in the early game really went my way.

    turn 86 got into renaissance, oracled rationalism and then bulbed a writer to get secularism

    freedom around turn 126?

    single plastics bulb on 147 and bought all the labs. I'm not sure there is anyway to get another scientist or raw beaker power to get much lower? but i'm sure someone could do it

    Although, now that i'm thinking about it, I didn't sign any research agreements so maybe there is a way to shave a turn or two off
     

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  15. Notacop

    Notacop Chieftain

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    In that game I got desert folklore, tithe, the one that gives +2 happy for gardens, swords into plowshares, and reliquary. Pagodas and mosques were taken at founding, so was stuck with gardens. Normally I get pagodas, it gives you everything you need. Second pick is usually religious community, but I've also gotten the one that is +2 faith per wonder. I built one guild in capital and the other at Poznan. Basically I just chose the expansion with the most food available to displace 2 citizens, although having it in Krakow would have been the most helpful. I think next time I'll just send a caravan to whatever expo gets a guild. I (barely) hit 5,000 faith, used it for 3 gs. I usually get a ge for hubble or SoL, but I knew I would barely get 5,000 faith and I needed that 3rd gs to make up for losing porcelain tower. That 3rd faith gs ended up being the limiting factor, so getting a ge would have been a worse finish. I can't remember the end sequence exactly, but it was something like last natural gs spawned t193, then hubble t194, then last faith gs t195, victory t196. Something like that.

    Blatc, it seems you've been playing a lot of Babylon lately. Do you ever go for a quick bowman rush to take a cap early?
     
  16. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    I haven't attempted a bowman rush in my recent games.
     
  17. Notacop

    Notacop Chieftain

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    cbucks,
    I played from your plastics save, got to t172. Also had an extra gs, so could have won 2-3 turns earlier (although gold would have been pretty tight). I was able to get to 2500 faith to buy 2 gs, as it looked like you faith purchased a ge already. I think you can also shave a turn or two off by getting to plastics sooner. I'm not convinced research agreements would help that much in this game, I think the gold is better suited to buying science/specialist buildings. Blatc had a recent post about that map where he got below 170.
     

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  18. cbucks

    cbucks Chieftain

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    Man, I must be bulbing wrong or something. What is your bulb order? I burned a GE to use for hubble, is it better to try and save for another GS?
     
  19. Blatc

    Blatc Chieftain

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    Getting another faith GS would be faster, it's just a matter of whether you can reach 5,000 faith and build Hubble fast enough to finish sooner. Before reaching the Industrial era, you should be able to estimate how much faith accumulation is possible, and make decisions from there. If reaching 5,000 is impossible (ex. few or no Faith CS, Reliquary was taken, etc.), but you can be confident in reaching 3,500, then for me the decision usually ends up between using a faith GE on Statue of Liberty or Hubble.

    cbucks, can you describe your game from Plastics to finish.
     

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