1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Fastest Science Victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lightning5555, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    449
    I would give a fair bit of credit in my improvement as a Deity player to replaying to compare different paths, along with slowing down my play and micromanaging/regularly checking in on cities to find more value. I found I learned a lot better comparing through replays then watching videos of others playing, which I find incredibly boring. I highly recommend replaying to try out different paths, if you're looking to improve your game.

    In terms of pursuing the fastest non-HoF eligible game, once you've decided to ignore the HoF rules, whether you chose to reload/replay or not is essentially a matter of how diligently you wish to pursue that goal. Personally, I enjoy replaying a strong map to improve my finish much more than I enjoy rolling endless maps that I don't play.
     
  2. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Messages:
    673
    Do you make demands to other ais when playing settler difficulty? How easy it is to make demands? It could help to take copule of turns of ?

    Edit: How can you calculate what value of demand you can ask? in city states it says clearly when you can ask tribute but with ais it doesnt
     
  3. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    449
    I'm pursuing T200 or faster Deity SV again, this time with Babylon. A question for those that have been near 200 with this civ: assuming 2+ mining lux in your capital, do you tech Mining first and then Pottery-Writing, to be able to peace deal/sell lux sooner? Also curious how many natural GS people have been able to produce by ~T195, and how many cities they had. For my play style on Great Plains map, I'm thinking 11 natural from 6 cities (4 cities produce 2, plus the initial GS) is probably the goal.
     
  4. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    449
    Just submitted a T199 Deity Babylon SV that was quite interesting, as you can probably guess by the end game screenshot.

    The game plan - building on some previous partial games, also on GP - was a 4-city NC, with each of those cities aiming to pop 2x GS. I intended for 'light war' for much of the game, looking to produce 2 GG (grab additional resources for the gold), possibly capture/sell a few cities, and capture/keep 1-2 cities (looking for neighbours to build wonders like ToA). Self founding a 5th was always an option. On this map, I had room to self-found 6 cities (2 after NC). I stayed at war with Venice to pick off trade routes and eventually accept their 2nd city (Belgrade) in a peace deal, which I sold (only got ~1,000 gold, ~T165, which was disappointing).

    There were only 2 Cultural CS on the map and 1 was conquered early; however, I was able to get 19 policies (Tradition, Rationalism, Freedom, and Commerce opener) with several turns to spare.
    I completed the last tech on T196, which would have lined up for a T197 finish, but I really messed up on gold - didn't start trading gpt or switching trade routes early enough - given that I knew I couldn't possibly reach Merc (25% off). I needed 2 additional turns to gather enough gold, and probably sold close to 30 buildings.

    Happiness was a constraint for much of the game. The map had only 2 Mercantile CS, both with Jewelry (no Porcelain), so a total of only 10 unique happiness from CS. For comparison, maps with 3-4 Merc CS and both Jewelry/Porcelain would have 17-20 unique happiness from CS. I had access to every luxury on the map perhaps the earliest I've ever experienced, meaning permanent WLTKD, but little room for growth. All 6 cities were beside mountains. The 2 post-NC cities had a lot of building to do and no time for Colosseum. Late game I was hit with 11 unhappiness from ideology; this was after winning WF and using 3 GW (timed with WF win golden age), which brought me to -1, so I had to buy a building just to bring that up to 0! The last few turns were chaos, with rebels appearing T198 and apparently a city will revolt and flip coming in the next couple turns.

    While I was unable to found a religion, I got good value from DF pantheon and was able to buy 4 Pagodas and a Monastery. Accumulating >3,500 faith, I bought 2 GS and 1 GE (SoL).

    CS count was
    5 Maritime, 3 Militaristic (Venice nabbed 1), 4 Religious, 2 Cultural (1 conquered), and 2 Merc.
    With happiness issues, a Maritime CS that doesn't offer a unique luxury is nearly useless; the capital benefited from some Maritime Friendship. Resolving quests for the Militaristic CS helped with my early army, saving me hammers/gold and allowing me to focus on other things.

    17 GS
    1 from Writing
    10 produced by cities
    4 from wonders
    2 from faith
    10th city-produced GS was T194, from one of the 2 post-NC expos, both of which could have built a garden but did not need to.
    Looks like it would be possible to get an 11th city-produced GS by ~T194, but would most likely require a 7th city and gardens in all. 3 from Faith is of course also possible, although in this specific game I needed a GE for the SoL free policy to open Commerce and allow me to build Big Ben, so even if I had reached 5,000 faith, I would have chosen 2x GE.

    My spies stole Banking, Gunpowder, Navigation, and Archaeology which is awesome! Banking definitely helped on the way to Scientific Theory. The last 2 steals were wasted by me messing up on gold and taking 2 extra turns at the end anyway.

    Key timings
    ~T82 4-city NC, next 2 cities founded over next 5-10 turns
    T92 Education
    T141 Sci Theory (no bulbs)
    ~T150 Freedom
    *used Oxford on Radio, 5th and 6th cities were both able to build granary, watermill, library, and university in time
    T167 Plastics (2x GS)
    T196 completed final tech
    T199 SV

    Babylon T199 SV.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  5. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    449
    If anyone is still following this thread, some details on a T196 Babylon Deity-standard SV with an extra GS at the end.

    Spoiler Details :

    For a few reasons, such as getting several workers from barbs, I only declared war on 1 AI (unfortunately Sweden - never gained friendship) and 0 CS this game, which is very different than my norm.
    5-city NC and captured Stockholm later. The city to NW near Arabia was self-founded.

    Stockholm was the target to capture from very early, as they built ToA and showed they weren't going to be very friendly this game. They added some great wonders - Petra, Pyramids, Notre Dame, and Forbidden Palace) - but put up such a good fight that I didn't take the city for quite a while, starting after Machinery. I made a dumb mistake, thinking I could produce a GS in Stockholm by buying all science specialist buildings and using a GE to get PT there right after the resistance ended, but I was wrong. I've done the math on GS points many times and shoudn't have made this mistake. If I had used the GE to build PT in the city that produced my 100 GPP GS (and 700 GPP, after LToP), I might have produced 3 GS there, with some late help from Science funding.

    Religion went well and I built Borobodur: tithe, DF, S into P, Reliquary. Surpassed 6,000 faith for 1 GE (PT) and 3 GS.

    Arabia beat me to Machu Picchu.

    17 GS
    1 from Writing
    9 produced by cities; a 10th was possible
    4 from wonders
    3 from faith

    9th city-produced GS was T192. Hubble and Apollo completed T194. I made a small mistake earlier and forgot to plant my 2nd GS (1st city-produced). As a general strategy, I want to plant 2 GS and take New Deal as a policy over Foreign Legion. I plant any new (4-use) prophets I capture in war - 2 this game.

    My spies died twice; I don't think I stole a single tech.

    Key timings
    ~T82 5-city NC, roughly the same as previous game I posted about, but with an additional self-founded city
    T89 Education
    T140 Sci Theory (no bulbs)
    ~T152 Freedom, expo building Oxford was a bit slow
    T172 Plastics (1x GS), bought 5 labs immediately, 6th T173
    I intended to double bulb into Plastics, but the 1st bulb would have been very low value due to when several of the School were completed, so I waited and just used 1 GS
    T194 was the very first turn my GS value was high enough to finish 1st column Info Era techs - just in time! Part of the additional value (beyond the absolute value of the beakers) of New Deal and planting 2 GS is ensuring you can finish off all the techs quickly and finish the game 2 turns after building Hubble.
    T195 completed final tech with 1 remaining GS to spare
    T196 SV

    Sub-T195 was in reach here and sub-T190 seems possible, though very challenging, with Babylon.

    Babylon T196 SV.jpg
     
  6. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    5,945
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    Thanks @Blatc, that is pretty neat! Please explain, why do like the Great Plains script? If you were playing Pangea, approximately what would be the turn difference do you think?
     
  7. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    449
    Great Plains:
    *Western 1/4 of map is mountainous; you want to start in the West for Deity SV (for fast DomV, middle is better)
    *Western section can also produce a fair bit of faith from DF
    *you can block off part of the West end, both for scouting and settling purposes. This is also helpful for defense.
    *middle of map is relatively flat; this is excellent for war. I'm getting better at profiting from war within SV and seeing even more value to this than in my previous Deity SV games, where GP was already my preference
    *like Lakes, it is a smaller map, which is good for scouting, meeting all AI sooner, meeting all CS sooner - all things that help speed up the game. The size also limits AI expansion.
    *like Lakes and some others, you know the shape of the map, which can help with scouting.
    *luxuries, although there are less total luxuries (variety) on the GP map, it's manageable to connect them all, leading to endless WLTKD. This is particularly helpful once you have Ideology happiness, Ideology food, and Fertilizer food. This is admittedly a positive and a negative, and other maps could be superior on this factor.

    How much slower the game would take on Pangaea would depend on the settings. Looking at the Hall of Fame, Lakes is the other main map type used for the fastest Deity SV.
     
  8. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    449
    An interesting note regarding some early game setbacks and potential for a strong finish: I ended up playing out a game to a T199 SV (Babylon, Deity, standard) in which the following happened:
    *on 1st worker steal, I had to sacrifice my starting warrior to save the worker
    *on 2nd worker steal attempt, I lost both my scout (2nd scout) and the worker - at this point I had 1 worker and only 1 remaining unit to explore (scout)
    *I later chose to sacrifice a low-health scout to grab a worker that was right beside a barbarian hand-axe
    With 3 unit losses early game, my capital build started with 5x scouts. I was late meeting many CS and I believe Venice was wiped out before I ever met them. Some consequences of this slow start:
    *my 7th policy couldn't go into Commerce, as I wasn't at Medieval yet; this prevented a pre-Renaissance Mercantilism (with Oracle)
    *5-city NC was T90 or shortly thereafter
    *didn't reach Education until T99; overall, the delay meant 1 less city-produced GS by my target turn #
    My capital was incredibly strong and early CS quests went well, so I elected to continue on out of curiosity and was surprised how well things came together.
     
  9. cbucks

    cbucks Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    169
    Finally got sub 200 science victory. It was on the Isabella map that currently has the fastest science victory ever for diety (I believe). I was able to launch the space ship on turn 189 with a great scientist to spare, so it probably could have been considerably faster. After comparing my game to vadalaz's game, we obviously took different paths as he was able to conquer and i turtled in after five cities

    I found this video floating around which really helped my game play. More specifically, making sure all tiles are assigned correctly and most importantly, making sure to get as many CS allies as possible as well as correct bulb path

    Here are some of the saves of the game if anyone is interested. Thanks for all the help in this thread, i'm gonna try with some different leaders now
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Manpanzee

    Manpanzee Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    310
    DF is great, but I think I like Religious Idols even more. It was typically my first choice on this map. The value of RI is more frontloaded, whereas DF will eventually produce more in the later game. In particular, having a bit of extra culture right from city founding makes borders pop faster, which makes resources connect faster, etc.

    But I also typically was playing Liberty, and maybe that changes priorities.
     
  11. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    449
    Key, relevant differences between Liberty and Tradition include the incredible impact the Tradition opener has on long-term border expansion, the free monuments upon or shortly after founding 3 expos, and the ability to faith-purchase GE and therefore greater value in reaching higher peak faith output. I believe the best possible game scenario would include strong DF; however, if the situation warrants, I have chosen Religious Idols in the past. In aiming for sub-T195 SV in the future, I expect DF and One with Nature (with 2 faith wonders) are the only pantheons I would bother to continue with.
     
  12. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    449
    Details and pic from T195 Babylon Deity SV
    This game increases my confidence a sub-T190 with Babylon is possible with excellent dirt and everything going well.

    Spoiler Details :

    4-city NC (~T80), kept Seoul for a 5th city. First 4 were next to mountains, Seoul was not. I never got the beakers high enough to pop end-game techs in a single turn, but planned well to deal with this.

    Sharing the West of GP maps with Venice is a great set-up for 5-6 self-founded cities; unfortunately, I didn't see a strong enough spot for a 5th city.

    War
    Venice was the main target early on; I grabbed their luxuries with my first GG and continued to use them to level up ranged units. Eventually, my allies in Monaco sent units over to capture Venice.
    Morocco and Korea double-DoW'd me, probably around when I reached Construction: I was able to hold them both off while remaining at war with Venice. I burned 1 Moroccan city, nabbed a 4-use prophet to plant, and made peace with only 1 lost unit. With Korea, I burned 1 city, took Busan in a peace deal (sold to Sweden), and after 10 turns declared war and took Seoul (Hagia, Notre Dame, Zeus, Oracle, Parthenon).
    I did not make peace with Korean ally Sydney (North of Seoul), sending units up to gain XP and some gold from pillaging. Soon after, I realized I should send my army to the far East to wage war on the Dutch (I was friends with everyone else). I captured 2 cities during war, selling them to the Songhai, and a 3rd in the peace deal, selling that to Arabia.
    I planted 4 citadels to grab resources and earn faith through reliquary (might not have had it for the first GG).

    Religion
    I missed DF, which wouldn't have been that strong, but was a better option than Religious Idols, as I had already got 1 or 2 culture ruins. I built Borobodur, selected Reliquary, Mosques, and +2 faith from wonders, captured 2 prophets with a 3rd already planted in Seoul before I captured it, and had several Religious CS available, so I was able to reach 6,000 faith comfortably (did not choose New Deal).

    Venice was the only other city that could build Machu Picchu, yet another benefit of them sharing the West of GP map with you.

    17 GS
    1 from Writing
    9 produced by cities: 2 from each self-founded (despite only 2 being able to build gardens) and 1 from Seoul
    4 from wonders
    3 from faith

    9th city-produced GS was T191, PT and Apollo 192, Hubble T193.
    Only planted GS from Writing. I think this was a mistake and that I should have planted 1st city-produced GS and chosen New Deal.

    Spies
    I delayed Printing Press ~5 turns by delaying Physics so I could steal it from Korea (only tech available to steal). Also stole Industrialization right after I reached Scientific Theory (thought about buying 3 factories, but it didn't make sense to do so) and then Chemistry. Tried a fair bit (CS were going very well, so spies were free to pursue other actions), but I couldn't set up a Navigation or Archeology steal.

    Key timings
    T78-80 4-city NC
    T92 Education
    T143 Sci Theory (no bulbs), bought 1 school immediately and 1 in Seoul once they settled down
    ~T152 Freedom
    T171 Plastics (1x GS), bought 5 labs immediately
    The timing was awkward to use 2 GS here, as I didn't reach Mercantilism until T171 (natural policy and Worlds Fair win that turn) and also would not have finished Big Ben. However, I had a LOT of gold and could have bought the labs at full price.
    T195 SV

    Babylon T195 SV.jpg
     
  13. cbucks

    cbucks Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    169
    I played the babinski poland map and was able to complete it turn 197 -

    following that, tried the isabella map again. I am able to finish turn 183. I feel like someone can finish this save i'm going to post a little bit quicker. It is turn 158, all research labs have been bought except for one. There is enough gold to buy the last research center. You need to make sure to keep blocking your capital or else a religion will be spread which will shave a turn off of everything you build. Someone give this a go and let me know how they finish up. I know this thread is kind of dead, but it's a pretty good position
     

    Attached Files:

    yung.carl.jung likes this.
  14. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Messages:
    5,095
    Location:
    The Twilight Zone
    those are some respectable numbers, man. people may not post as much in this thread anymore but I think it's being read still
     
  15. aafritz17

    aafritz17 Moderator Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Messages:
    419
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Yep. Usually first thing I look at at lunch time. This forum, anyway. Like right now.
     
  16. cbucks

    cbucks Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    169
    replayed the isabella map and got it down to 181 without warring
     
  17. cbucks

    cbucks Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    169
    180 is as fast as i can get without warring
     

    Attached Files:

  18. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    2,579
    Location:
    Hoboken NJ / NYC
    Equilin likes this.
  19. Equilin

    Equilin Prince

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Gender:
    Male
    Sad to know you won't do any more of this, your writing is very fun to read! Although that save&load must be rather painful for the brain or eyes.
    Maybe scram all the unique abilities in the game in one civ and have a run for the lulz? I did it once while trying to follow your guide (bnwx4) with a solomon map (but i'm bad at planning so the result is not so well) and had quite a blast with UAs stacking/helping each other.
     
  20. cbucks

    cbucks Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    169

Share This Page