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Fastest way to a pre-500 BC catapult rush?

GreatWhiteHope

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Jan 9, 2014
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Toronto
This is a very noob question.

I've been trying to get a better pre-500 BC catapult/swords/axe rush going, yet I keep being tempted into the trap of teching metalcasting and then trading for basically every single tech the AIs have, except construction, which they always refuse to trade. But if I tech to alphabet/mathematics to self-research, I usually get less trades because of their lower value, and I end up falling further behind in tech.

I've seen the YouTube playthroughs and downloaded some HoF games and they usually have a pretty good catapult rush going earlier than 500 BC, sometimes much much earlier.

What's the standard way to do this? Obviously it's the most basic strat in the game and I just want to know what the community consensus is on this.
 
Well.. having better micro and teching faster of course. But thats a chapter of its own.

A philoshipical trait means a very early bulb for math. Getting 14 hammers in cities means 3 turbn build times.

Your question is senseless. Post a saved game and you can get some tips on how to tech faster
 
There aren't really many tricks to it - more that the map has to allow for it. The AI needs to get early Alphabet and you can trade Math for Iron Working. Like Roby said, Philosophical for early Math bulb helps.

You'd also want very high commerce start (gems/gold), great food, great spots for city #2 and #3 (high food/production). Starting techs and food need to be right - such as starting with Agriculture and only having Corn/Rice for food so you can skip AH.

What difficulty are you playing? Early Catapults isn't a style I ever do on Immortal (other than 1 AD to 200 AD Elephant/Catapult attack) I'd have to say on Monarch/Emperer a 1200-800 BC 8-10 Axe rush (or 1800-1200 BC 4-7 Axe rush) would be stronger. And on Immortal/Deity early Horse Archers are usually the safest bet.

Emperer and below very early Chariots (1500 BC) can be strong too. All rushes depend on neighbor unique units/protective trait/are there 2, 3 or 4 cities on hills etc... Are you looking for the BEST way to conquer a neighbor before 1 AD, or really just trying to perfect a Catapult rush?

As always, you're best off posting a start and ask for specific advice on that particular map.
 
Imo the strongest is to Oracle Construction, closely followed by bulbing Math. So as you can see, finding ways to gain :science: expedites the process. This can also be applied directly to city growth, expansion, and final tech rate. I.E., expanding less, working more tiles (growing larger than you normally would at certain points in the game), and focusing on early research (Wonder FG works great) gets you to Construction faster.
 
It's going to vary quite a bit based on the map, leader, and what difficulty level you are playing. Construction Oracles are very fast, but on Deity that strategy won't be viable much of the time, and even on Immortal it can be some-what risky. It's tough to pull off a really early Construction Oracle without a nice start and a good leader so losing the Oracle is a very real possibility.

Also, HOF games probably aren't the best things to use for a template because the starts that they use are typically pretty incredible and not something you will find very often in a regular game. Those games are very well played, don't get me wrong, but not exactly your typical random map roll.
 
Imo the strongest is to Oracle Construction, closely followed by bulbing Math.

Since Construction requires math and masonry, wouldn't you have to complete the Oracle just after bulbing math?

You build a couple of cities surrounded by a lot of forests, and about five workers (or steal them). You build libraries and maybe granaries in both cities, and assign a couple of science specialists in first city (or both). With math-powered chopping, you can build an army very quickly. I would have to experiment to find the best build order. With pre-chopping and worker steals, and the right trait combo (philosophical and creative both help) you could have a very early catapult rush. Oracle would speed things up too.
 
What maps/leaders/difficulties/neighbors do you think a Catapult rush would be better than Axerush/HA rush? Boxed in on Deity w/ no horses? Such a rare case and it's unlikely Math bulb>Oracle Construction would be possible. I have never played ~500 BC catapults so maybe it's better than I think - but I'd guess 2 move HA's 10-20 turns earlier would be faster/stronger most times. Same with Axerush 20-30 turns earlier. Maps with horrible commerce teching Horseback Riding fast can be tough - but Axerush can be done on any map (OP says we have metal). On Emperor and below Axerush is soooooo strong and consistent. Only issue is if distance is too great - and if that's the case why attack around 500BC?

Catapults are nice cause it's not the end of the world if they get Longbows - but just to take out 1 nearby neighbor I don't think it's worth it. Even on Immortal Longbows can show up anywhere from 500BC to 1 AD. I'd rather take them out with Axes before that can happen. Or on lower difficulty take out 1 or 2 AIs with Axes/HAs by 500 BC.

Probably too much discussion without waiting for a response from OP :crazyeye:
 
Pure axe rush on the top levels is trash, i can tell you that. I don't think it's extremely uncommon to not have horses either. And when you are boxed in early on Deity with like 4 cities, it's very common to lack resources because you simply don't control any land.

Appearance of LBs doesn't end a Construction attack either, especially if you are doing a real one with phants. Sure you lose a pretty good number of cats against LBs, but as long as you have a good base at that point it's very doable.
 
We haven't mentioned this before, but it is not that hard to have a treb rush by about 500 BC.
What maps/leaders/difficulties/neighbors do you think a Catapult rush would be better than Axerush/HA rush?
With horse archer rushes, you can conquer more cities in a short time. A horse archer rush also lets you to attack enemies that are further away than an axe rush would. I think protective leaders with early cheap walls would be easier with with a catapult rush. Horse archer rushes have to end with opponents getting longbows--not necessarily so with catapults.
Such a rare case and it's unlikely Math bulb>Oracle Construction would be possible.
I think some of the wizards here would be able to Oracle construction by about 2000-1800 BC with a leader like Pericles. Imagine we have gems/pig/cow and a lot of trees, so agriculture can be skipped. You could go AH -> Writing (worker first, then build a warrior and cheap library while the city grows to population four) -> mining -> BW -> wheel -> pottery. Make two science specialists and build settler (then religious techs/masonry). The GS will pop out by about 2400-2200 BC. Then chop out rest of settler if necessary. Teching is very fast while working gems/pig/2 science specialists. Then whip Granary, overflow and chop out Oracle, axeman, worker maybe. I am sure there are much better tech and production orders--it would be a good micro exercise.
Catapults are nice cause it's not the end of the world if they get Longbows - but just to take out 1 nearby neighbor I don't think it's worth it. Even on Immortal Longbows can show up anywhere from 500BC to 1 AD.
I'm playing a game right now (immortal) where one neighbor got crossbows, and another longbows by 400 BC.
 
OP may be playing on Noble - Monarch difficulty. I don't think 2000 BC Construction or 500 BC Engineering are what he should expect to be able to achieve on a typical map.

I think "most basic strat in the game" is more like warrior rush or axe rush...
 
Yes, I understand that. The OP is asking this question because he wants to advance beyond a basic axe rush and get an early catapult rush going. His specific question was "what is the fastest way to a pre-500 BC catapult rush?" Others answered his specific question. The fastest way is to bulb math, and Oracle construction.

The next fastest way is to build an early library or two and work scientists. Early libraries with specialists really speed up research (although they do slow expansion some) until you get where you want to get. Another way to fast research is to work gems, gold, or riverside cottages. Or you can work cottages in your capital, and build a library and work specialists in your second city. With faster research, get the basic techs you need to work resources near you capital, and then head straight to construction.
 
Ok well I tried it out with the cheapest possible settings: financial/philosophical Incans on a ridiculous gold AND gems start, on deity.

In the first game, I built the Oracle, but it cost me expansion. I got boxed in and only managed to get 2 cities built. I oracle'd code of laws by 1800BC to found confucianism, since I was still 6 turns away from mathematics. I researched construction by 900 BC and managed to get a produce one catapult and 6 axes by 500 BC (huge fail). Of course, Saladin had a stack of 15 units right by my borders and unfortunately by 400 BC everyone got longbows (I checked worldbuilder). Maybe I shouldn't have traded away code of laws. Clearly I screwed up somewhere. I should've had 3-4 cities and twice the number of units. I probably shouldn't have went for religion at all.

In the second game, I just did a Quecha rush and took over 2 barb cities, and got to 5 total cities by 1600 BC. I built a library in my capital but didn't work specialists since they were all working the gold and gems. I went for writing and mathematics, researched a third of alphabet to get it in a trade, and got construction by 1200 BC. Luckily I cheated and knew there was iron nearby, but I'll still probably end up getting my ass kicked soon!

Edit: added the 4000 BC save file
 

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Try a map like this. The map is emperor level and has some gems and gold nearby, but it isn't crazy. It is a good map and civilization for a construction rush. I practiced a little of the method I suggested, although Koreans have slightly different starting techs to the Greeks. I was able to get my math bulb at 2320 BC and Oracled construction around 1800 BC. I'm sure others can do others can do better. For my capital, I settled on the marble. There is some ivory a bit to the northwest of the capital. You can build a second city there. A philosophical leader will bulb techs much faster than HC.

Playing at deity takes a lot of practice and isn't easy no matter how favorable your situation is (if you aren't used to it). I feel closed in pretty quick even at immortal. Before you even start building your hwachas and elephants, make sure you have 4-5 workers for you two cities to chop. At immortal level I often have only a couple of cities before my first rush. A few hundred years later, I'll have many more. Make sure you whip troops to help in your attack from all your captured cities. The hwacha is a catapult that has a 50% bonus vs. melee.
 

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The fastest way to construction is a save from the Awesome Starts Collection thread :lol:

Edit: building the Oracle and taking CoL doesn't help a catapult rush, it probably slowed you down. If you play a super start on Deity as a philosophical leader you need to beeline writing, pop a great scientist, bulb math and finish the Oracle the same turn. And you'll probably still get beaten to it regularly if one of the Oracle loving AIs are in the game with half decent starts (Isabella and Justinian seem to consistently build it early).
 
Hoping this is not a troll-thread, so:

What you did, is, that you chose a standard sized map and you filled it up with the maximum number of opponents .

1200 BC save shows that you rexed very well, 4 cities with those settings is amazing, anyhow, in order to help: The city locations which you chose are bad, and you're building the wrong buildings (i. e. no or too few Granaries) .

900 BC save shows that you have you have a typical number of cities for those settings, and you have a major tech-lead, so I don't understand what your problem is.

When people here are talking of "boxed in with 4 cities" , they talk of "standard / normal / 6 AIs" , and it's really no uncommon scenario.

Personally I think that you better should lower difficulty, read more and develop your playing style, because I think that you're definately not ready for Deity, but if this doesn't interest you and you're like me and simply "want to beat Deity no matter what" , at least choose settings that work in your favour, and seriously, practice your playing skills, like play 10 times REXing on a map with few opponents (i. e. Inland-Sea, low Sealvl) , or play 10 HA-rushes where you only expand to something like 3-5 cities and then kill your neighbour with 10-15 HAs.

Construction Rush is something one usually does when having Elephants and wanting to conquer the whole map with them, and the easiest and most common way (seriously) is Agri -> TW -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet (trade for everything) -> take chances at Oracle for Currency -> Math -> Currency -> trade for Construction (via Mansa, having someone on friendly or however, but don't tech Construction and go for a full-scale war without having Currency, Currency is absolutely needed when going to war, Oracle -> Construction is only a tactic if you can get Currency from someone else) .

All the best and GL. Don't forget btw. that Deity simply is not always winnable, sometimes RNG simply funks onesself but in order to have chances at winning it at all, "good to very good play and a high grade of knowledge" is really needed. I. e. not prioritizing Granaries is enough reason to lose Deity.
Immortal is at least 5 times easier, so if you win 5/5 games on that difficulty, you can think about Deity.

Also: Search for a user named dubioza and read his signature.

Seraiel
 
Thanks for the replies guys. Lincoln I'll try playing your map a bit today, even though it's emperor. Seraiel I've seen some of your HoF games. Thanks for the detailed feedback. I don't know why this would be a troll thread though haha.

It's true I don't have much experience on CIv4 as I picked up the game two months ago, but I've played Civ 1, 2, and 3 for years. I've won Deity but with only an aggressive/charismatic Praetorian rush on a tight-packed map and dozens of reloads (mad cheating). I've also lost some close space-races in the early 1800s where I had military parity and a land lead, Mining Inc, and the #1 industrial base, but couldn't nuke enough enemies towards the end (nearly 100 launched warheads and several 1-turn military victories).

I also win every single immortal game I play with careless and sloppy play but on deity I regularly get my ass kicked no matter how well I start off. Ie. if I get the GL built and an early tech lead, I get attacked within a few turns.

That's why I guess I'm trying to read more and ask more, because clearly there are gaping holes in my game. I think it might be poor teching, and not properly utilizing the specialist economy with pacificsm/caste system enough.

The HoF fame games amaze me. I've seen domination wins where the capital didn't even have a barracks built. Or the cultural wins where they just spammed great artists into size 1 cities while keeping 50 spies in their capital and somehow avoiding war on +14 relations with all leaders and like 6 defensive pacts.

Clearly there are game-breaking ways to play and critical diplomatic tactics that are eluding me. Every time I watch a playthrough I learn about exploits like gifting your vassal a dozen warriors.

By the way I was only building those libraries because I traded for pottery on that same turn or just before. Clearly I would've whipped those terraces.
 
Lincoln I'll try playing your map a bit today, even though it's emperor.
I didn't have time for a reply to your post in detail last night. The map is emperor, but it is difficult. You have some tough opponents. Also, it is intended to just play over and over again until you can get the earliest army of cats and elephants--so level doesn't really matter. Try for maybe 6 cats and 6 elephants. If you can do it fastest with three cities, build three; If two, then build two. Or maybe just catapults and axes--you decide. Elephants require HBR, so that will delay your attack.
Ok well I tried it out with the cheapest possible settings: financial/philosophical Incans on a ridiculous gold AND gems start, on deity.
I looked on your map, and there really wasn't enough food and too many hills for your capital to grow. Unless you typically play deity, you shouldn't try new strategies at that level. Even with a 1500 BC catapult rush, immortal isn't easy for me.
Clearly I screwed up somewhere. I should've had 3-4 cities and twice the number of units. I probably shouldn't have went for religion at all.
Having two cities is fine, as long as you have an army that can conquer six more by 1 AD. Founding a religion doesn't really help, unless you are isolated. Code of Laws is a nice tech for reducing empire maintenance costs though. Most of the hammers for your army is going to come from chopping your forests. Twenty chopped forests will produce 6 cats and 6 war elephants. You need a fair number of workers to chop that many forests. I saw you had only two. You will need at least 4-5 workers. Stealing workers is a great skill to learn.
In the second game, I just did a Quecha rush and took over 2 barb cities, and got to 5 total cities by 1600 BC. I built a library in my capital but didn't work specialists since they were all working the gold and gems. I went for writing and mathematics, researched a third of alphabet to get it in a trade, and got construction by 1200 BC. Luckily I cheated and knew there was iron nearby, but I'll still probably end up getting my ass kicked soon!
That was a pretty good start on a deity map.
Edit: added the 4000 BC save file
I don't really like this map. The gold and gems doesn't make up for having too many hills, and not enough food. There is also no ivory nearby.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. Lincoln I'll try playing your map a bit today, even though it's emperor. Seraiel I've seen some of your HoF games. Thanks for the detailed feedback. I don't know why this would be a troll thread though haha.

It's true I don't have much experience on CIv4 as I picked up the game two months ago, but I've played Civ 1, 2, and 3 for years. I've won Deity but with only an aggressive/charismatic Praetorian rush on a tight-packed map and dozens of reloads (mad cheating). I've also lost some close space-races in the early 1800s where I had military parity and a land lead, Mining Inc, and the #1 industrial base, but couldn't nuke enough enemies towards the end (nearly 100 launched warheads and several 1-turn military victories).

I also win every single immortal game I play with careless and sloppy play but on deity I regularly get my ass kicked no matter how well I start off. Ie. if I get the GL built and an early tech lead, I get attacked within a few turns.

I had the thought that this thread might be trolling, because I noticed that you're a good player, therefor I thought you might be someone who regularly beats Deity, got himself a new username and now makes fun via asking questions like "why this" when he himself manipulated the map in a way he thought nobody would notice, but if you're honest, it's ok.

I believe that the reason for you not beating Deity btw. is, that you rely on tactics that you should use. If you reload heavily, you will never find out what really works and what doesn't.

Like with Praetorians. Praets i. e. work against an Opponent having Archers (always) , Praets work awesomely with Catapults until Maces, and Praets need Numbers:

-> Learn mechanics how to get more production (mainly the whip, but also have enough Workers that can chop Forrests and don't REX too much, 3-5 cities for a Praet-war is more than enough. Also choose the weak targets, try to get someone into war to then backstabk him, try to make him revolt before attacking so he cannot whip reinforcements, leave cities in the back undefended to lure out defenders and so on) .

(sry for the style on that, but those are really very powerful keys)

That's why I guess I'm trying to read more and ask more, because clearly there are gaping holes in my game. I think it might be poor teching, and not properly utilizing the specialist economy with pacificsm/caste system enough.

The HoF fame games amaze me. I've seen domination wins where the capital didn't even have a barracks built. Or the cultural wins where they just spammed great artists into size 1 cities while keeping 50 spies in their capital and somehow avoiding war on +14 relations with all leaders and like 6 defensive pacts.

Clearly there are game-breaking ways to play and critical diplomatic tactics that are eluding me. Every time I watch a playthrough I learn about exploits like gifting your vassal a dozen warriors.

By the way I was only building those libraries because I traded for pottery on that same turn or just before. Clearly I would've whipped those terraces.

Specialist-Economy with CS is something that helps in Spaceraces and when having REP. Otherwise, Caste is quite weak.

HoF games where the capital didn't have a Barracks, those are "cheese wins" where the map was small and someone rushed everybody with only few troops, "real games" that go to something like 1000+ AD will definately have Barracks in their cities.

Culture wins with Spies don't work via GA-spamming, they work via bombing 3 cities with 1 GA each to have "seed culture" , and then generate about 20k-30k of :espionage: to then use the "spread culture-mission" to spy the city to legendary after having gifted it to an opponent, and then reconquer it before that opponent was able to send troops there with little force -> win.

More important though:

1. Gifting Warriors to someone shows that he cannot / doesn't want to win normally -> weak.
2. Not having Granaries at, let's say 1600 BC at latest, shows that you must think about priorities. I have many games where I don't even build Libraries in many cities when going for Conquest, but Granaries, hell, those buildings must really be in every city, as early as available. Libraries one needs either 2 (Capital + GP-farm) or x (number that unlocks Oxford) , and that's it, at least for Conquest games.

All I can give for now.
 
2. Not having Granaries at, let's say 1600 BC at latest, shows that you must think about priorities. I have many games where I don't even build Libraries in many cities when going for Conquest, but Granaries, hell, those buildings must really be in every city, as early as available. Libraries one needs either 2 (Capital + GP-farm) or x (number that unlocks Oxford) , and that's it, at least for Conquest games.
I'll admit I'm not even a very good immortal level player. Still, I thought at least I could help him with his original question. The original question was "Fastest way to a pre-500 BC catapult rush?" The strategy I recommended was to build a library before a granary so the GS's would come out quicker for math bulb to chop better and Oracle could be built sooner leading to an early construction. I think to a certain extent he was try to follow what I recommended. However, the map he chose didn't have enough food in the capital to dedicate scientists. He was also not creative and philosophical--for fast libraries, and fast GS. He would have probably built granaries first if I didn't ask him to build library first.

I'm working on the best strategy to get a good elepult rush going as early as possible. Though I get the techs early--Math bulb at 2320 BC--and Oracle soon following for Construction. It seems to take me until around 800-700 BC to really get enough forces together (6 of each). It might help to worker steal to get them sooner, or maybe early granaries and a later bulb might get the army quicker. In the mean-time I do tech and trade for the important economic techs--so I guess it isn't too bad.

I also noticed that if meditation and fishing are avoided, and science specialists are kept in, machinery and engineering can also be learned in the BC's.
 
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