Featured Game #2 Spoiler 1: Pre-Astronomy

[Thalassicus]

Click Here to begin Game 2 of the GotM: VEM Edition. As fair respect for your fellow competitors, do not read the Spoiler threads before starting the game.

This thread is to discuss what happened in your early game - strategies, other civs, resources, events of the game, and so on. Please DO NOT post spoilers here about gameplay after Astronomy. Visit Spoiler Thread #2 to discuss the late game and post your final victory save.

 

[Txurce]

After moving the warrior all the way to the ruins, I moved the settler north to the hill. I was going to research Masonry-Writing for the GL, and had ruled out the Stonehenge gambit building in place called for. I also decided on a Scout-Worker-Monument-Scout build queue. I didn't see the point of fast scouting on a Pangaea map, and figured (correctly) that I would meet all the CS I needed, and have plenty of time to take out the accessible barb camps once I researched Honor.

I took Tradition, then filled out the Honor tree. My plan was to build two or three cities, and use those as my unit and Wonder pumps, while preparing for war in the Medieval era. I wound up buying a granary for my capital, then building the GL and Hanging Gardens. I beelined for Currency-Chivalry-Physics, and signed a couple of RA's late (T107). I also took advantage of quests to ally with Stockholm and Belgrade.

I decided to build Medina to the NE, in the direction of my first target, Egypt. They were the fastest-growing civ at the time, although Persia soon claimed that title. My plan was to take on the most advanced civs first, then hit the weaker ones as close to all at once as possible. (Later I built Damascus on the coast to the west, halfway to Germany, but only garnered some science and one luxury from it. Two cities would probably have been enough.)

I DoW'd Egypt on T139 - probably a later start than most, and definitely slower than Thal! I advanced with two longswords, two camel archers, and two trebs. Egypt was 5 techs ahead of me, so I was surprised to be met by a small number of archers and spearmen. The CA's were even more devastating than the trebs - I rolled through Egypt, razing two cities and keeping four, eliminating it in T156. (This gave me more luxuries to use and sell.) At this point I had DoF's with everyone except (purposely) Persia and the Iroquois.

After shifting west, I DoW'd Persia on T160. Darius had expanded far enough to the south that he was NW of the capital. Again I was met by a surprisingly backward military: mainly levies and a few immortals. I took Babylon on T181, razing every city en route and leaving Darius with two cities. Happiness was only just becoming a problem, so after the Honor tree I took three straight Commerce policies.

By the time I wheeled around and attacked the last of the Big 3 - the Iroquois - in T184, my army had upgraded to rifles and cannons along with three CA's. I then researched the Printing Press and bought a few theaters. India (weak and already unpopular) denounced me in T185, so I DoW'd Ghandi in T187 and began sending my new units west.

Hiawatha was caught off-guard in Heliopolis, but moved skirmishers, crossbows and trebs from all sides while I pushed straight for his capital. I lost three units, and had to regroup and rebuild around Heliopolis (due to splitting my focus). India lost its capital to Rome after I softened it up in T194, and Onondaga finally fell in T206.

I was now ready to make a push in two directions, and capture the remaining four capitals. On T209 I researched Dynamite and upgraded my cannon to artillery. The game would be over soon... and might have been over already if I had built more units early and opened up a second front an era before. On the other hand, I had yet to be denounced by anyone except India, where it actually worked in my favor. By now happiness had become enough of a problem that I took Piety and Mandate of Heaven. Why not sooner? Because I have a prejudice against that tree - that's why!

PS: I researched Astronomy some time around this point, but didn't even notice.

 

[RedRover57]

This is my first game trying the VEM mod and am enjoying it so far. But it's been learn as I go so I probably am not playing optimally. Quite a few differences from vanilla, so I am messing around a bit more than I would normally do for a domination rush.

Spoiler :

General strategy: In vanilla I would have beelined for Chivalry (bulbing with the free Liberty GS) while grabbing as many horse sites as possible to build up a large force of camel archers (plus one horseman to cap cities). However, I was quite shocked to see 2 horse tiles in my territory but only 2 horses total! So I decided to build an economically and technologically strong civ first and then start my warmongering in late medieval with a superior and more diverse army.

I settled in place and my build order was scout - monument - watermill - granary - library - Pyramids. In hindsight building SH would have been a good strategy, but I didn't realize how good it is in this mod. Also, it went fairly early to Egypt (turn 39). Consequently, I didn't get my luxuries hooked up very quickly and ended up having to buy a bunch of tiles, but money hasn't been a problem with Arabia.

For policies I filled out all of Liberty first, then all of Honor. I really like how well these 2 trees synergize in this mod. Commerce tree will be next.

I founded 3 additional cities pretty quickly (free settlers from Liberty and Pyramids, plus one hard built). I delayed the NC for quite a while in order to crank out wonders in my capital (after Pyramids I built Oracle, Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Hagia Sofia, Notre Dame [with GE from HS], Porcelain Tower and Ankgor Wat [crazy good with as many CS allies as I had by then], with NC somewhere in there). I built Hanging Gardens in my military production city to the west (site with Grand Mesa). Going for Forbidden City as soon as I finish Banking.

I allied with 7-8 CS (including all of the cultural CS I could find) so my cpt was good even with 4 cities. After the NC I founded a fifth city near Germany to get ready for the military push. I will start with Germany since they have the most troops and will conquer in a clockwise manner. My force is currently camel archers with a few swords and crossbows, but as soon as I finish the armory in my troop production city (already have barracks and heroic Epic there) I will start cranking out siege weapons. Here is a screenshot of my civ on turn 150:

Strategy from here is to beeline Dynamite with RA's plus GS's. I will DoW Germany right away to start whittling down their troops with my camel archers, and then start taking cities when I can get some LS and trebs over there. After Germany there aren't any other civs that will be a threat, particularly when I have rifles/cannons and eventually artillery (should be before turn 200 for Dynamite). Persia is strong point-wise, but won't have much of an army to speak of. It will just be a question of how many turns it will take to sweep through the map.

 

[Thalassicus]

RedRover57, could you upload your screenshot to a site such as imageshack, and use the options there to do a thumbnail link? It makes it easier to read the thread.

RedRover pointed out one big feature of VEM. There's approximately 2-3 iron and horses available right away, with 2-3 more at a further distance from the capital. (In Game 2 the extra horses are north, with iron to the west.) This is one general goal of VEM: a half dozen strategic units at the start, and up to a dozen with sufficient expansion, but still less than vanilla. A smaller amount of strategic resources better encourages combined arms, compared to vanilla where it's feasible to just spam one unit type. It's great to see a mix of ranged, vanguard, ships, and siege on that screenshot.

 

[Txurce]

This is my first game trying the VEM mod and am enjoying it so far. But it's been learn as I go so I probably am not playing optimally. Quite a few differences from vanilla, so I am messing around a bit more than I would normally do for a domination rush.

Strategy from here is to beeline Dynamite with RA's plus GS's. I will DoW Germany right away to start whittling down their troops with my camel archers, and then start taking cities when I can get some LS and trebs over there. After Germany there aren't any other civs that will be a threat, particularly when I have rifles/cannons and eventually artillery (should be before turn 200 for Dynamite). Persia is strong point-wise, but won't have much of an army to speak of. It will just be a question of how many turns it will take to sweep through the map.

You're doing great for your first time playing VEM.

We took different approaches - Liberty vs Commerce, effectively - and you built more cities to crank out science, which seems like it's going a little faster than mine. And the cost was getting out the gate 12-15 turns later. I'll be curious to see how it turns out.

 

[RedRover57]

RedRover57, could you upload your screenshot to a site such as imageshack, and use the options there to do a thumbnail link?

Is there a way to do a thumbnail link from the Steam site where my screenshots are uploaded?

 

[Thalassicus]

I'm not sure, I haven't linked from Steam before. It's not a big deal because people can simply right click the image and choose a Zoom level, but doing so in advance can be convenient for those who don't know about that web browser feature.

 

[Txurce]

And the method would be different on a Mac.

 

[glider1]

Chucked in the towel after experiencing my first ever good quality AI rush when Japan attacked with 2 swordsman, 1 levy, 2-3 spearman and 2 archers at turn 88! Let me explain. I'm the sucker who had the game crash with the social policy screen issue. On the second run, I rushed through turns to catch up to where I was the first time round. I made at least these critical errors in that rushing that I normally would not do:

1. Rapidly expanded to three cities thanks to honour/liberty culture combinations. I was first place in land area.
2. Rushed to Stonehenge but had only a military large enough to destroy barbarian camps and nothing more. Used scouts for barb killing rather than scouting.
3. With all the area that Stonehenge instantly gives you, I was tempted by the devil and built an extra worker to make use of that area rather than military.
4. Was impatient and snubbed off every single request for friendship by any and all civs I came in contact with simply because I wanted to get through turns. My attacker Japan, did offer friendship very early, but I refused.....
5. I decided to delay most military techs.
   

I didn't even know where Japan's territory was when they attacked. I rushed defenders but lost a city. They pillaged very nicely and I lost gems, cotton and about to loose marble, and the city fell very nicely as well. Good job by the AI. That said, last VEM king game, I discovered that when the AI attacks early and strikes hard, it seems to include all it's units in the attack leaving it's own territory undefended. Greece really suffered for that last game. I suspect that Japan will have done that this game, because I noticed they brought archers along and another was straggling along behind (presumably was garrisoned in the capital - I should check to see if this is true, but probably it doesn't matter).

Here are some observations:

• Thanks Thal for teaching me that 2 scouts and a warrior can collect good culture under honour. I also learned that picking up an early wonder is actually doable (assumed that the AI would always get them first).
• A beautiful start position, but relative to random pangaea+ maps, it was a much easier start and I think makes King level look easier than it is, when you have to take any old random start position the map generates.
• In the other handful of VEM king games I've played, I've always accepted friendships as soon as they are offered. This has led to nice chumy games where I could gradually build up, under-defend militarily and be more in control of affairs. So I'm a bit concerned that accepting friendship offers is a bit of a no brainer, particularly if you want to avoid being rushed. What is the down side in the very early stages of accepting friendships? Other civs might not like the friendship, but mostly those consequences don't seem serious enough to worry about (that I've experienced).
• I don't use InfoAddict and it's harder without it. For example, when Darius contacted me for friendship, I had no idea what he was up to diplomatically unless I would have remembered what Civwillard tells me and spent more time scouting rather than killing off barbarians with scouts. But with Infoaddict, I could have had the best of both worlds. I could know instantly what Darius was up to including his trade dealings, relationships and strength, and wouldn't have had to scout his territory. I totally accept that point that InfoAddict makes it more fun. The problem is that the Civ5 diplo screen should at least list all the relevant knowable details up on the screen, so that you can make an informed decision when Darius randomly comes up into your face! (Perhaps you can if you press the F1-F12 buttons but why aren't the screens available via the graphics interface when the leader contacts you for an offer? Even access to your advisers would be better than nothing)

Anyway, great GotVEM and a great mod thanks Thal . I find it hard to play the same map twice, because I'm more after the enjoyment of experiencing than becoming finessed at learning the details through repetition. I hope that the role playing side of the Civ series is kept up as well as making it a very game oriented strategy. Both are good.

Cheers

 

[void_genesis]

I noticed early on using info addict that Japan had suddenly spent nearly all of its treasury on a military. Spotting this I bribed them for a few gold to go attack Rome (on the other side of Pangaea), after which they started getting into wars with just about everyone along the way who got nervous at the sight of their army. Japan should be a spent force by the time I get to it.

Diplomacy can be really fun in civ if you get your timing right.

 

[Txurce]

Chucked in the towel after experiencing my first ever good quality AI rush when Japan attacked with 2 swordsman, 1 levy, 2-3 spearman and 2 archers at turn 88! ... I made at least these critical errors in that rushing that I normally would not do:

1. Rapidly expanded to three cities thanks to honour/liberty culture combinations. I was first place in land area.
2. Rushed to Stonehenge but had only a military large enough to destroy barbarian camps and nothing more. Used scouts for barb killing rather than scouting.
3. With all the area that Stonehenge instantly gives you, I was tempted by the devil and built an extra worker to make use of that area rather than military.
4. Was impatient and snubbed off every single request for friendship by any and all civs I came in contact with simply because I wanted to get through turns. My attacker Japan, did offer friendship very early, but I refused.....
5. I decided to delay most military techs.

1. 
   
   Too bad. I think not signing the DoF's did you in all by itself.
   
   
   

   I noticed early on using info addict that Japan had suddenly spent nearly all of its treasury on a military. Spotting this I bribed them for a few gold to go attack Rome (on the other side of Pangaea), after which they started getting into wars with just about everyone along the way who got nervous at the sight of their army. Japan should be a spent force by the time I get to it.
   
   Diplomacy can be really fun in civ if you get your timing right.

   
   I love doing that.

 

[Thalassicus]

The downside of accepting every possible friendship offer is you might do so with someone who turns out to be the despised enemy of everyone else on the map. This quickly leads to mass denouncements and declarations of war. So all-out DoF'ing is a high risk, high reward sort of deal, with major backfire potential.

Something I've been thinking about lately is the major information provided by InfoAddict was included in the core game of vanilla Civ 4:

• Graphs.
• Relationships between leaders.
• Attitudes between leaders.

I think this is a decent precedent for using it in Civ 5. If I remember correctly, Civ 4 did not give us information on things like AI-AI trade deals, so that might be something I could disable. In the long term I'd like to include some of the basics of CivWillard and InfoAddict into the core diplomacy UI. This includes the 3 things listed above, plus the trade screens of CivWillard (for both major and minor civs), and a quick mouse-hover list of upcoming deal expirations.

 

[glider1]

Everything that Civwillard tells you is legit. The person who wrote Civwillard is a genius because of those incredibly clever interface buttons at the bottom of the screen. So simple and so effective! They even tell you information without having to click on them. Knowing the trade deal details in info-addict are over the top, but there's not much that you can do to break those deals unless you declare war. I think the relationship/attitude status is ok even if in real-life you couldn't know them without espionage..... The graphs are great but it's naive to think that we can get this information at no cost considering the absolutely game changing information that they provide. Knowing OB status has implications about war strategies. In BTS you had to pay for all this information. A great compromise would be that instead of military graphs, EmperorFool in his famous addon for BTS took another angle. His mod collected military information about the numbers and types of units, but only if they had been spotted at some stage by your own scouting. In other words, it was legit information that cost something to acquire (scouting). You could extend that to open borders if your scout has detected a civ inside another's territory without them being at war. I guess a mod-mod idea would be that you could add extra information that your friends and allies also knows about another civ. But that's a game changing idea that puts a lot of extra weight on friendships and alliances. One major point is that in BTS, you could still access the other adviser screens even with the diplo-screen up and in your face.

Only my two cents worth.
Cheers

 

[Txurce]

The downside of accepting every possible friendship offer is you might do so with someone who turns out to be the despised enemy of everyone else on the map. This quickly leads to mass denouncements and declarations of war. So all-out DoF'ing is a high risk, high reward sort of deal, with major backfire potential.

Something I've been thinking about lately is the major information provided by InfoAddict was included in the core game of vanilla Civ 4:

• Graphs.
• Relationships between leaders.
• Attitudes between leaders.

I think this is a decent precedent for using it in Civ 5. If I remember correctly, Civ 4 did not give us information on things like AI-AI trade deals, so that might be something I could disable. In the long term I'd like to include some of the basics of CivWillard and InfoAddict into the core diplomacy UI. This includes the 3 things listed above, plus the trade screens of CivWillard (for both major and minor civs), and a quick mouse-hover list of upcoming deal expirations.

Civ 3 offered much the same things.

The graphs are great but it's naive to think that we can get this information at no cost considering the absolutely game changing information that they provide.

You've raised this point before... but the AI already has this information, and there's no reason why there should (as opposed to could) be a cost.

 

[Atlas627]

Civ 3 offered much the same things.



You've raised this point before... but the AI already has this information, and there's no reason why there should (as opposed to could) be a cost.

I would rather not have this info, because even though the AI has it, is it coded to use it? Furthermore, there will eventually be mod support for multiplayer, and at such a time we would have to undo this anyway for the reasons he has said.

 

[Txurce]

I would rather not have this info, because even though the AI has it, is it coded to use it? Furthermore, there will eventually be mod support for multiplayer, and at such a time we would have to undo this anyway for the reasons he has said.

I can't imagine why it wouldn't use the info, the same as it does with strategics. If it doesn't work for MP, then it won't be used. And of course, you don't need to use it now, if you would rather not have the info.

 

[rf900]

Ok, didn't finished last GotVEM because of my usually lack of interest of endgames, hope I complete this one.

Already passed turn 100, mostly friendly with all, and well ahead of all thx to all the different wars been held (AI is crazy declaring war and then signing peace constantly).

With 5 cities I am ready to expand, my target is Egypt on the east side, could get some allies with me. Still I am waiting to be stronger his chariots intimidate me.

Is it good to wait so long to start warmongering for a domination win? Is it needed that the AI eliminate some civs? There have been a lot of wars going on, but all civs are very balanced, I don't think there has even been a city capture.

 

[Thalassicus]

@rf900
It depends on circumstances... in most games I kill some neighboring citystates right away, then immediately move on to a major civ. If there's lots of room to expand, however (like Game 2) it's viable to expand first and conquer second.

 

[glider1]

Best of luck Rf900 Egypt was my target too cause I thought they had a tendency to overpopulate and under-defend from previous games, but I got clean wiped out at turn 88 before I got the chance. I'm rooting for ya!
Cheers

 

[rf900]

So many doubts, my left side is harder to defend but I am confident on India holding the Romans. Currently at war, if they fall I know they will be knocking on my door next. Up north is too far away... Egypt is my best bet right now, but afterwards I will be exposed to a lot of civs. I could also go south/west, lots of land but not the best locations, also expanding that much can cause too many weak spots.

I have hurried to education as nearly always, I guess after that I will go for a more tech war path.