Feedback: Buildings and Wonders

[Eucalyptus]

Another slight Colosseum issue: I am Hittite in a world with otherwise only French, Aztec and Spanish civs, who are centuries behind me in technology.

My Colosseum city builds a Cavalry but a Grenadier pops out!

 

[Xyth]

Gives free Leadership Promotion.
I liked the idea when this change was made a while ago.
I think it is an excellent idea.

Is it just me, but does the National Monument seem too expensive (time consuming) to build in exchange for the benefit? I have not been bothering to build it, and think that in most circumstances that is the right decision.

I assume you mean the Military Academy which costs 800 hammers and gives the free Leadership Promotion. The National Monument costs 500 hammers gives -25% war weariness in all cities.

I agree that the Military Academy is too expensive, especially for it's era (it used to be later in the tree). I'm tempted to restore the +4 xp it used to give alongside the Leadership promotion, drop the cost to 400 hammers but remove the production speed bonus with Stone. How does that sound?

Another slight Colosseum issue: I am Hittite in a world with otherwise only French, Aztec and Spanish civs, who are centuries behind me in technology.

My Colosseum city builds a Cavalry but a Grenadier pops out!

That certainly shouldn't be happening! I'll investigate. Did it happen just once or every time?

 

[Eucalyptus]

That certainly shouldn't be happening! I'll investigate. Did it happen just once or every time?

It happened several times in a row. The attached save file may help.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I think either of these changes would be fine.
I am not sure about both of them together.

I agree that the Military Academy is too expensive, especially for it's era (it used to be later in the tree). I'm tempted to restore the +4 xp it used to give alongside the Leadership promotion, drop the cost to 400 hammers but remove the production speed bonus with Stone. How does that sound?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Tone down the cost less, or scale back the XP bonus to be less beneficial- maybe just another +2 XP instead of four.

The combination of +4 XP and the Leadership promotion is powerful enough to merit a very high price, especially since I suspect the double XP gain for Leadership applies to the XP a unit gets by virtue of being created in the city with the military academy.

 

[Mr. Sulu]

By the way, here's some better Sydney Opera House graphics
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=1113

Although these are European Wonders, I think that a few are needed to represent the contributions of various great thinkers throughout our time.

Leonardo's Workshop
Cost: 750 Hammers
Unlocks at Patronage
+8 Culture
+2 Great Engineer Points
-25% Unit Upgrade Cost
+1 Free Engineer
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11090

J.S. Bach's Cathedral
Cost: 700
Unlocks at Humanism
+10 Culture
+2 Great Artist Points
+50% Culture
-50% Hammers required to build Cathedral
Can turn 2 citizens into Artists
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=18539

 

[Howard Mahler]

I think the costs for the Stable and the Forge should be much closer to each other.
Both give a 0 to 20% hammer bonus, plus some other benefits.
I suspect it is the cost for the Stable that needs to be raised significantly.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. The Forge was more expensive in Vanilla because it was worth a lot more: 120 hammers up front for an industrial building that was worth +25% hammers. That would be contributing at least a few hammers a turn for the next 300 turns or so, even in relatively low-production cities. In major metropolitan centers, it could pay for itself in twenty or thirty turns.

When the value of the Forge declined in recent versions of HR, the cost should have declined too.

 

[Absolution]

One thing I could not understand is why you put the Kotel a UB.
This is more like a UW.
I am Israeli, and I will tell you what does it mean in Hebrew:

What you call "wall" in English has three different words in hebrew.
The first is "Homa". This is the kind of walls that protect a city, or a certain area.
The second is "Kir". This is the walls of a house. The walls between rooms and halls in a building.
The third is "Kotel". This is some kind of a synonym to "Kir", but it is like a greater fom of it. A more powerful word. It can also be the outside walls, the side walls, and can sometimes be the basic walls of a building.

The Western Wall in Jerusalem, which is known as The Kotel, was part of the wall that surrounded the Herod Temple. So probably this belongs to the first meaning - Homa.
But it gained the name Kotel because of it's importancy and honour.
So it is not semantically and historically correct to make The Kotel a replacement to Israeli walls.
Ancient Israelites did build walls.
But the Kotel was built only once.

I recommend you to change it and make the Hebrew UB a replacement for monuments.
That's because building monuments was forbidden in ancient Israel. You can replace it with a High Place (called "Bama" / "Bamot" in Hebrew). Their High Places had been unique places of rituals untill the reign of Josiah.
Most of them had been built by ancient Cna'anites but later renovated by the Israelites that used them for something like 550 years as cultural and religious centres.

 

[Xyth]

I think the costs for the Stable and the Forge should be much closer to each other.
Both give a 0 to 20% hammer bonus, plus some other benefits.
I suspect it is the cost for the Stable that needs to be raised significantly.

I thought I'd raised its cost, but I guess I thought about it and then neglected to actually implement it. What do you reckon it should be raised to? I'm thinking at least 80 but not more than 100.

Yeah. The Forge was more expensive in Vanilla because it was worth a lot more: 120 hammers up front for an industrial building that was worth +25% hammers. That would be contributing at least a few hammers a turn for the next 300 turns or so, even in relatively low-production cities. In major metropolitan centers, it could pay for itself in twenty or thirty turns.

When the value of the Forge declined in recent versions of HR, the cost should have declined too.

I don't think the Forge needs to be made cheaper in its current form (its been through a fair few iterations though!). It now only gives 5% less production than in BTS, and while it no longer gives any happiness it grants 2 Engineer slots instead of 1.

One thing I could not understand is why you put the Kotel a UB.
This is more like a UW.

When I first put the Hebrew civilization in I remember being at a bit of a loss for what to make their UB. I went with the Kotel in the end as that's what many other mods used, though it did strike me as disingenuous. I'm not at all opposed to replacing it.

I agree that it's more appropriate as a UW, though there isn't really any obvious national wonder for it to replace. Do you think the Kotel or Masada is a better choice of UW for the civilization?

I recommend you to change it and make the Hebrew UB a replacement for monuments.
That's because building monuments was forbidden in ancient Israel. You can replace it with a High Place (called "Bama" / "Bamot" in Hebrew). Their High Places had been unique places of rituals untill the reign of Josiah.
Most of them had been built by ancient Cna'anites but later renovated by the Israelites that used them for something like 550 years as cultural and religious centres.

I like that, I'll see if I can find some suitable art. Thank you for this feedback and information!

 

[Absolution]

Dont replace Masada.
Masada is the best choice for a UW.
The Kotel is a religious place, and is holy because it is the only building left from the Temple.
So we can say that the Kotel is partially equal to the Temple of Solomon.
Therefore, there is no need for the Kotel at all in the game.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Of course, in Civ IV, it's entirely possible that the Israelites won't get to found Judaism- someone else may get it first. So they won't have the Temple of Solomon in every game.

So it might actually make sense to have the Kotel, then, since it's a unique architectural thing that ties together both the ancient and modern Israeli cultures. But it would be very strange to have that and the Temple of Solomon, since both those things would be present in the game at the same time despite one being a part of the other. And the Temple of Solomon is needed as the 'great temple' for Judaism.

If religion in general or Judaism in particular weren't in the game, I'd say make the Temple of Solomon the Israelite unique wonder. Since it is, using the Kotel doesn't make a lot of sense, as a unique wonder, Masada is probably a better choice, I agree.

Absolution, do you have any ideas about what the High Place might do as a unique building, to distinguish it from all the other Monument-based unique buildings?

 

[Absolution]

I think it should do something with religions.
+ happiness or culture for every religion in the city makes sense..
Because the High Places were actually used as cultural and religious places by many different religious groups in anciet Cna'an / Israel.

 

[Howard Mahler]

It seems like that there is not enough time between when Monasteries can be built and when they become obsolete.
I don't have a specific suggestion, and it is not a top priority, just something you might want to look at to see if a tweak is possible.

 

[Xyth]

I think it should do something with religions.
+ happiness or culture for every religion in the city makes sense..
Because the High Places were actually used as cultural and religious places by many different religious groups in anciet Cna'an / Israel.

That bonus is possibly a bit too complicated for a UB, I'd prefer to keep the UBs simple and save any additional coding for wonders. No luck finding art yet unfortunately but I'm still looking. It may have to be pretty generic looking.

It seems like that there is not enough time between when Monasteries can be built and when they become obsolete.
I don't have a specific suggestion, and it is not a top priority, just something you might want to look at to see if a tweak is possible.

I like where they appear (Theology at the start of the Medieval era) but I agree that they probably obsolete a bit too soon. I'm not sure where else makes sense though.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Probably in the early Industrial era.

Some of the monastic and monastic-type orders (think Jesuits) remained relevant in Europe up into the 1600s and 1700s; "Scientific Method" may be a bit early for them to go poof. Also remember that in non-European societies, religious orders survived even longer- scholarship in the Islamic world, and culture in much of the Orient, are still heavily entwined with religion except where the state consciously tries to sweep it out of the picture.

 

[Xyth]

Probably in the early Industrial era.

Some of the monastic and monastic-type orders (think Jesuits) remained relevant in Europe up into the 1600s and 1700s; "Scientific Method" may be a bit early for them to go poof. Also remember that in non-European societies, religious orders survived even longer- scholarship in the Islamic world, and culture in much of the Orient, are still heavily entwined with religion except where the state consciously tries to sweep it out of the picture.

Looking over the options, the one that makes the most sense to me is to have Monasteries obsolete at Sociology in the late Renaissance, which is a minimum of 13 techs later in the tree than Scientific Method. Journalism perhaps, but that's only 3 techs further in. Any other suggestions?

 

[Eucalyptus]

Looking over the options, the one that makes the most sense to me is to have Monasteries obsolete at Sociology in the late Renaissance, which is a minimum of 13 techs later in the tree than Scientific Method. Journalism perhaps, but that's only 3 techs further in. Any other suggestions?

I imagine that it has been said many times before, but the way that Monasteries become obsolete has an annoying side effect: Existing Monasteries can build Missionaries, but no new Monasteries can be built. A civilization that hasn't built any Monasteries must suddenly choose a state religion and run Organised Religion to be able to build any Missionaries, but then it can build Missionaries of all available religions.

So, as of HR1.1.6, the moment that I have Theology, I furiously build as many Monasteries as possible (of all available religions) before they obsolete, so as to be able to continue spreading religion(s) after they obsolete.

This is not only not fun, it's also not historical: Just because a civilization has advanced to the point that Monasteries no longer produce research shouldn't mean that religions can no longer actively evangelise.

So, I would rather have the obsolescence only apply to the science bonus, and still allow Monasteries to continue to be built for their missionary-producing abilities. Regardless of the particular obsolescence technology, is this possible?

Further, it's not so much the discovery of the technology but the construction of a new research-producing building that should affect the Monastery research bonus. Perhaps each individual Monastery could become obsolete the moment that a School is built in its city?

 

[Absolution]

The UB can have a simple happiness and culture bonus.
Historically it's OK.

The art should not be very invested. It's a not a complicated building. Just a few established stones.
Here is a picture of a very well preserved High Place:

I hope it can help you.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I imagine that it has been said many times before, but the way that Monasteries become obsolete has an annoying side effect: Existing Monasteries can build Missionaries, but no new Monasteries can be built. A civilization that hasn't built any Monasteries must suddenly choose a state religion and run Organised Religion to be able to build any Missionaries, but then it can build Missionaries of all available religions.

So, as of HR1.1.6, the moment that I have Theology, I furiously build as many Monasteries as possible (of all available religions) before they obsolete, so as to be able to continue spreading religion(s) after they obsolete.

This is not only not fun, it's also not historical: Just because a civilization has advanced to the point that Monasteries no longer produce research shouldn't mean that religions can no longer actively evangelise.

So, I would rather have the obsolescence only apply to the science bonus, and still allow Monasteries to continue to be built for their missionary-producing abilities. Regardless of the particular obsolescence technology, is this possible?

Further, it's not so much the discovery of the technology but the construction of a new research-producing building that should affect the Monastery research bonus. Perhaps each individual Monastery could become obsolete the moment that a School is built in its city?

Could we make Monasteries available early, but Missionaries available later in the game? Historically, religious communities played a significant role in preserving cultural and technical skills well before what Xyth thinks of in terms of evangelism.

Although I've never entirely understood his reasoning there- it's not like ancient religions didn't spread, or didn't send out disciples to actively spread the word around.