Feedback: Civilizations

Under the Troubleshooting and FAQ thread, I notice that certain leaders (Dharmasetu, Le Loi, Rajendra, and Topiltzin) are missing diplomacy text.
Have you addressed this issue yet?
Is it simply a matter of finding the relevant GameText file under Mods/History Rewritten/Assets/Modules/Leaders and writing some in-character greetings?
If so, I could do it; it would be a nice break from messing with the tech tree.
 
Under the Troubleshooting and FAQ thread, I notice that certain leaders (Dharmasetu, Le Loi, Rajendra, and Topiltzin) are missing diplomacy text.
Have you addressed this issue yet?
Is it simply a matter of finding the relevant GameText file under Mods/History Rewritten/Assets/Modules/Leaders and writing some in-character greetings?
If so, I could do it; it would be a nice break from messing with the tech tree.

No, I haven't finished off those diplomacy texts yet. The relevant tags are found in History Rewritten/Assets/Modules/Leaders/LeaderName/LeaderName_CIV4GameText.xml. Each leader has 8 personalized texts. Feel free to improve or change any of the other leaders as well; some of their texts are borrowed from elsewhere and are not as well written as I'd like.

EDIT: Brian Boru possibly also needs new/modified diplomacy text. He's still using the default texts for Brennus I think
 
I have attached the complete diplomacy text for Rajendra. I had much fun with it. Here is what I wrote:

Rajendra of the Tamil Empire
First Contact: Greetings, [CT_NAME]. I am [OUR_NAME] of the [OUR_EMPIRE], who conquered the crown of the King of Ilam, and the more beautiful crown of his Queen.
Refuse Talk: [CT_NAME], you come to the war gates of my fair city, its doors set with jewels of great splendour. You shall come no further.
No Peace: We shall not have peace until I have claimed the whole of [CT_CIV_SHORT], surrounded by the clear sea.
Friendly Greetings: Ah, [CT_NAME], may our friendship last for as long as the sun and the moon endure.
Furious Greetings: I am the great [OUR_NAME] and also heroic Madamalingam; that is, Nilamuri Desam, whose fierce strength grew by enmity. What would you have with me?
Tribute Weaker: My ships have sailed the billowing seas seeking your favour, [CT_NAME]. I trust they have not come in vain.
Tribute Equal: I am praised by great men versed in the arts. My gardens brim with flowers of honey. Surely no gift is too fine for one such as I?
Tribute Stronger: Blessed by the Goddess of Fortune, I, [OUR_NAME] set forth to vanquish my enemies. Will you pay tribute, [CT_NAME], or will you join their number?


On a separate note, I have always felt that Indonesia was an odd name for a civilization. 'Indonesia' is an obvious Greek-Latin hybrid that was first used by Europeans, and resisted by Dutch colonials, in the mid 1800s. Certainly, the Srivijaya and Majapahit dynasties did not call themselves Indonesian any more than the Caesars thought themselves Italian. I might suggest Java as a more authentic indigenous name; the people and the empire would accordingly be Javanese. Java was the centre of the Hindu-Buddhist empires, the Islamic sultanates, and the colonial administration. It is a fitting name: much of Indonesian history is Javanese history.
 
I have attached the complete diplomacy text for Rajendra. I had much fun with it. Here is what I wrote:

Thanks, that's excellent. They can be quite fun to write sometimes :)

On a separate note, I have always felt that Indonesia was an odd name for a civilization. 'Indonesia' is an obvious Greek-Latin hybrid that was first used by Europeans, and resisted by Dutch colonials, in the mid 1800s. Certainly, the Srivijaya and Majapahit dynasties did not call themselves Indonesian any more than the Caesars thought themselves Italian. I might suggest Java as a more authentic indigenous name; the people and the empire would accordingly be Javanese. Java was the centre of the Hindu-Buddhist empires, the Islamic sultanates, and the colonial administration. It is a fitting name: much of Indonesian history is Javanese history.

This is a tricky one. While Java and Javanese applies to Majapahit and most of Indonesia's history since, it doesn't apply to the earlier and massively influential Srivijaya which originated on Sumatra and differed in ethnic makeup. Sunda was also quite distinct from the Javanese dynasties, despite being partially situated on Java itself. I've been unable to find a native term for the region as a whole other than Nusantara but that's not particularly appropriate either.
 
Here is another one:

Le Loi of the Viet Empire
First Contact: I, Emperor [OUR_NAME], welcome you on behalf of the [OUR_CIV_ADJ] people. We have sometimes been strong, and sometimes weak, but never have we been lacking in heroes.
Refuse Talk: I have sworn a blood oath: no concession, no compromise, with the aggressor. So begone!
No Peace: You would beg peace from the Prince of Pacification? You shall have none.
Friendly Greetings: Welcome, [CT_NAME]. I am glad that our two nations, like the mountain and river, have escaped the hazard and are mapped in one.
Furious Greetings: My fingers itch. The blade of the Golden Turtle rests uneasily at my side. Say what you will, and quickly.
Tribute Weaker: I ask but a small gift from the mighty [CT_EMPIRE] that our humble [OUR_CIV_SHORT] may share in your prosperity.
Tribute Equal: It is better to win hearts than conquer citadels, [CT_NAME]. Wouldn't you agree?
Tribute Stronger: I am Emperor [OUR_NAME]. I wield the enchanted blade Thuan Thien, The Will of Heaven. Pay due deference or suffer my wrath.


I also found a typo in the Karolus diplomacy text.
Friendly Greetings: We graciously welcome the mighty leader of [OUR_CIV_SHORT] to our presence.

should read
Friendly Greetings: We graciously welcome the mighty leader of [CT_CIV_SHORT] to our presence.

This is a tricky one. While Java and Javanese applies to Majapahit and most of Indonesia's history since, it doesn't apply to the earlier and massively influential Srivijaya which originated on Sumatra and differed in ethnic makeup. Sunda was also quite distinct from the Javanese dynasties, despite being partially situated on Java itself. I've been unable to find a native term for the region as a whole other than Nusantara but that's not particularly appropriate either.

Ah, I didn't realize that Srivijaya was a Sumatran dynasty.
I still think I prefer Java to Indonesia, for the same reason that I prefer Aztec to Mexico, even though Topiltzin is Toltec leader, who ruled many centuries before the founding of the Aztec Empire.
An insufficiently inclusive native term is better than no native term at all.
 
attachment.php


Te Rauparaha
New Leader for Polynesia
 
The new Polynesian leader looks intimidating.

For the Iroquois Empire, might they be renamed the Haudenosaunee League/Confederacy as that is closer to what they called themselves?
 
For the Iroquois Empire, might they be renamed the Haudenosaunee League/Confederacy as that is closer to what they called themselves?

I'm in two minds about this. On one hand I like to use accurate naming wherever possible, but on the other hand it is beneficial to use names many people are familiar with. Its hard to be consistent too. For example, I've used transliterated Egyptian names for their cities (Mennefer, Waset, etc) rather than the more well known Greek names (Memphis, Thebes, etc). However it doesn't feel right to rename the civilization itself 'Kemet'. Similarly, should we have Deutschland and Nippon? It gets even trickier when there is no appropriate native name for what we're trying to represent, i.e Indonesia.

No easy answers and I guess we just judge each individually. I haven't had much chance to work on this lately but I've been going through every civilization and reviewing/redoing their citylists and associated nomenclature. I haven't got to the Iroquois yet but I might hold off any decision on this until I can look at it in its entirety.

I definitely wouldn't use League or Confederacy in a civilization description though. It feels deterministic, the Iroquois (or whoever) could just as easily end up a authoritarian monarchy or a liberal theocracy in a game. 'Empire' may not be the perfect term but I think its important that all civilizations use the same term.
 
I'd like to do a review of UUs and UBs for 1.17. Please let me know if there are any that you feel to be too strong , too weak, or too similar when compared to other UB/UU. So far the Chinese Pavillion has been mentioned and the Japanese Shale Plant will potentially be replaced with something else entirely. Any others?
 
I have started playing today, and I have a few questions:
1. Why is the Babylonian Empire named Amuru?
The Amorites were just the founders of the empire, and the amorite rule lasted only until the kassite occupation. (Nebuchadnezzar wasn't even an amorite - he was chaldean).
2. Why is Sargon a Sumerian leader? He was akkadian..
3. Why are the ottomans called turks? ''Turks'' is an ethnic term. The empire we all talk about was the Ottoman Empire, not the Turkic Empire.
I understand that you want the cultural term, and not the name of the state. But their cultural definition was Ottomans. As same as the Byzantic Empire's cultural term is Byzantics and not Greeks or Balkans.
And I also think that adding the Mughal Empire, the Elamite Empire, and the Frankish Empire in the next versions of the mod would be great!
 
1. Why is the Babylonian Empire named Amuru?
The Amorites were just the founders of the empire, and the amorite rule lasted only until the kassite occupation. (Nebuchadnezzar wasn't even an amorite - he was chaldean).

I've expanded the Babylonian Empire to include it's cultural and political precursors as well. The citylist for Amurru starts with Ebla, Halab (Yamkhad/Aleppo) and other important earlier cities. Babylon is seventh on the list. The empire became known as Babylonian after the rise of that city but the people were primarily still Amorites (the rural Amorites kept that name for longer but eventually seem to have become or been absorbed by the Aramaeans). I made this change because I wanted those historically significant Syrian city states to be included and to provide much better distinction from Sumer/Akkad.

As for Nebuchadnezzar, he was Chaldean (who, ethnically and linguistically, were very closely related to the Amorites anyway), but his subjects weren't. History is full of famous leaders and dynasties whose lineage is from outside the land they ruled. If there's still space I'd like to eventually add a third leader to the civilization who isn't from Babylon. Perhaps Ebrium of Ebla.

2. Why is Sargon a Sumerian leader? He was akkadian..

Sumer and Akkad are an interesting case. There are indeed two different ethnic groups and two different languages but politically and culturally the two peoples - at least by the dawn of history - had become very entwined. There were very few specifically Sumerian or specifically Akkadian cities, though the ruling dynasty of each could be one or the other. It would certainly be disingenuous to separate them into different civilizations.

Technically the civilization could be called 'Sumer and Akkad', but that's messy in civ terms. I chose to call the civilization Sumer as it's the older name and not named after a specific city or hegemonic dynasty (other than those from the city itself, Akkadians as a people were only really called that after the rise of Sargon). There's no other term I could find that wouldn't also include the Amorites, Babylon, Assyria, etc.

3. Why are the ottomans called turks? ''Turks'' is an ethnic term. The empire we all talk about was the Ottoman Empire, not the Turkic Empire.
I understand that you want the cultural term, and not the name of the state. But their cultural definition was Ottomans. As same as the Byzantic Empire's cultural term is Byzantics and not Greeks or Balkans.

The Ottoman were a dynasty and I want the civilization to represent many of the earlier Turkic states as well. Gokturks, Seljuks, etc. I haven't remade their citylist or description to reflect this yet.

In general, I consider a civilization to primarily be a cultural entity; ethnicity, language, dynastic and political structure can of course be very significant factors but can they evolve and change over history and I don't think that a civilization necessarily ends when one or more of these disappears or is supplanted.

I don't claim to apply such a definition strictly or perfectly of course. The Egyptian civilization, for example, pretty much just represents ancient Egypt and most of its later history I'm incorporating into the Arabian civilization. Byzantium is also a noticeable exception as it could really be part of Rome (or Greece) but since it was already in BTS and there's enough historical and game content for both civilizations to stand separate (unlike Phoenicia and Carthage) I'm happy to leave it in.

And I also think that adding the Mughal Empire, the Elamite Empire, and the Frankish Empire in the next versions of the mod would be great!

The Mughals, despite their Central Asian origins, are really just a dynasty of (Northern) India. I don't think they need to be a separate civilization because, unlike the Kushan, their Central Asian history is already covered by the Persians, Mongols and/or Turks, and their Indian history is best represented as part of India in my opinion.

Elamites would be cool but they vanished pretty early in history and there's not a great deal of material available to turn them into a fully defined civilization. That part of the world is already very well represented in HR so not a high priority.

The Franks are represented by both France (Clovis) and Germany (Karolus). The German citylist has been remade to reflect this but the French one has not yet.
 
Oh that Pacal! He's still regularly founding TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KUKULKAN.

I was working on a new Mayan city list but put it aside to finish at a later time. In the meantime I've removed that one entry for 1.17. Thanks for the reminder!
 
I am considering removing Byzantium as a civilization and merging it into Greece and Rome. I'm not sure on the exact details of how best to do this yet but it is quite likely that some leaders from these civs would need to be removed.

I'm bringing this up because I'm currently going through the unit art for these civs and so many of the selections I've made are horribly unhistorical or simply invented. For example, I'm currently using Alexander's Macedonian troops as the Medieval era for Greece because all their medieval units are used by Byzantium. I don't mind using 'what-if' units for civilizations that have little or no continuity through the post-Medieval eras, but it doesn't seem right to be doing this for Rome and Greece.

I could potentially add a Thracian/Romanian civilization to fill the gap at some point. Anyone have any particular thoughts on any of this? Which Greek/Roman/Byzantine leaders do you feel it's most important to keep?
 
But this lack of continuity is true for most Western Asian civs, as well, and even truer for the Vikings, who have neither past nor future in terms of unit art.

Eliminating Byzantium would mean eliminating one of the most decisive forces in history. After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, many of the scientists and artists sought refuge in the Northern Italian city states. What would the Renaissance have looked like without them? You could also ask, whether there would have been a Renaissance era at all. Just like Justinian puts it: "There would be no cell phone without the Byzantines."

Leave alone the meaning of Byzantium for the Eastern Orthodox Churches! Half of the authors that are called Church Fathers are Byzantine – and three quarters of the saints in heaven.

Last but not least, the Byzantines are proud owner of a veritable world wonder, the Hagia Sophia. How many HR civilizations can claim the same?

Conclusion: The Byzantine could happily go with the post Renaissance unit art of the Greeks, just like the Romans use Italian modern units or the Celts, Phoenicians, Egyptians and many others are reliant on "allochtonous" units taken from French or Arabs.

It would be a dream, if there was an SDK free way to simulate transitions of civs like in RFC. Is it possible to have Python, if there are 18 minus 1 one civs remaining on the board and Greeks are dead, spawn Byzantium? I know, there is a HTML-tag, that tells what a civ becomes when given independence from the parent civ. Maybe that can be "hacked" for something RFC-like?
 
But this lack of continuity is true for most Western Asian civs, as well, and even truer for the Vikings, who have neither past nor future in terms of unit art.

It's because there is continuity that I am considering doing this, not the lack of it. Civs like the Sumerians and Phoenicians disappear from history with no obvious ethnic/cultural/political descendants, but the Romans become the Italians and the Greeks become the modern Greeks - and the period in the middle is the Byzantines. The Greeks don't exist alongside the Byzantines during the middle ages, the Greeks ARE Byzantium during this time. The Byzantine were effectively Greeks ruled by Romans; indeed "Byzantine Empire" is mostly a modern definition, they themselves and their contemporaries knew them as the "Eastern Roman Empire" and eventually just the "Roman Empire". Having this separated feels a bit like separating Han China or Gupta India into their own civilizations.

As for the Vikings, I should really rename them Scandinavians.

Eliminating Byzantium would mean eliminating one of the most decisive forces in history.

They wouldn't be eliminated, just merged. Justinian could become a Roman leader for example, and their medieval unit art (including the Cataphract) would become Greek.

Conclusion: The Byzantine could happily go with the post Renaissance unit art of the Greeks, just like the Romans use Italian modern units or the Celts, Phoenicians, Egyptians and many others are reliant on "allochtonous" units taken from French or Arabs.

Actually the issue is the other way around. In HR the Greeks don't have appropriate medieval units because Byzantium has them instead. They already share most unit art renaissance onwards.

It would be a dream, if there was an SDK free way to simulate transitions of civs like in RFC. Is it possible to have Python, if there are 18 minus 1 one civs remaining on the board and Greeks are dead, spawn Byzantium? I know, there is a HTML-tag, that tells what a civ becomes when given independence from the parent civ. Maybe that can be "hacked" for something RFC-like?

It's something I've wondered about and there have certainly been a lot of requests on CFC for such code before. From what I understand it is possible to spawn civilizations via Python but only if you invisibly 'kill' them off at game start, which reduces the number of actual civilizations you can have in a game. Without also having a fully fledged revolution system I don't see a great deal of advantage to implementing such a mechanic.
 
More opinions and concerns on this proposal please. I've definitely not made a decision either way yet.
 
I am opposed to removing the Byzantines. There are several reasons.

You tend to tie civilization status to cultural continuity- the Byzantine Empire was culturally quite unlike Rome (being Christian and Greek instead of pagan and Roman, with an evolving art and architectural style of its own). I would argue that 1000 AD-era Byzantines were as different from their Roman forebears as the Egyptians of 1000 AD were from the ancient Egyptians. And medieval Egyptians are a different civilization, being folded into the Arab world

Meanwhile, the Byzantines actively rejected much of the philosophical legacy of ancient Greek civilization, and largely rewrote its cultural values over the intervening centuries, into a characteristically Christian imperial state, very different from that of the ancient Greeks.

While Greek history includes Byzantine history, and Roman history trails off into Byzantine history, I do not think that it makes sense to argue that the Byzantines represent a continuation of the Roman or Greek "thread," any more than it makes sense to call the Russians a successor to Byzantium (which they themselves claim, at least in rhetoric), or Spain a successor to Rome (when Spanish is a direct and easily recognized daughter language of vulgate Latin, and when Spanish culture itself can trace a lot of evolution from the Roman rule of Hispania).

Finally, there's another point: I can't think of a single nation in the world of historical importance and cultural distinctness comparable to Byzantium that isn't represented by some unique civilization in the game. You've got Hungary, which were a historical footnote compared to the Byzantine Empire. You've got the Tamils, the Koreans, the Nubians, and so on- likewise. Many other societies of largely local importance, which spent much of their history as part of someone else's empire, are in the game.

I think the Byzantines deserve a slot- much more so than any "Romanian/Bulgarian" culture that might replace them, especially since the history files on the Bulgars or Romanians would consist largely of their interactions with the Byzantines who you just removed.

If unit art matters that much, just duplicate medieval Greek and medieval Byzantine art- one era of overlap isn't the end of the world.
 
I am opposed to removing the Byzantines. There are several reasons.

You tend to tie civilization status to cultural continuity- the Byzantine Empire was culturally quite unlike Rome (being Christian and Greek instead of pagan and Roman, with an evolving art and architectural style of its own). I would argue that 1000 AD-era Byzantines were as different from their Roman forebears as the Egyptians of 1000 AD were from the ancient Egyptians. And medieval Egyptians are a different civilization, being folded into the Arab world

Meanwhile, the Byzantines actively rejected much of the philosophical legacy of ancient Greek civilization, and largely rewrote its cultural values over the intervening centuries, into a characteristically Christian imperial state, very different from that of the ancient Greeks.

While Greek history includes Byzantine history, and Roman history trails off into Byzantine history, I do not think that it makes sense to argue that the Byzantines represent a continuation of the Roman or Greek "thread," any more than it makes sense to call the Russians a successor to Byzantium (which they themselves claim, at least in rhetoric), or Spain a successor to Rome (when Spanish is a direct and easily recognized daughter language of vulgate Latin, and when Spanish culture itself can trace a lot of evolution from the Roman rule of Hispania).

Finally, there's another point: I can't think of a single nation in the world of historical importance and cultural distinctness comparable to Byzantium that isn't represented by some unique civilization in the game. You've got Hungary, which were a historical footnote compared to the Byzantine Empire. You've got the Tamils, the Koreans, the Nubians, and so on- likewise. Many other societies of largely local importance, which spent much of their history as part of someone else's empire, are in the game.

I think the Byzantines deserve a slot- much more so than any "Romanian/Bulgarian" culture that might replace them, especially since the history files on the Bulgars or Romanians would consist largely of their interactions with the Byzantines who you just removed.

If unit art matters that much, just duplicate medieval Greek and medieval Byzantine art- one era of overlap isn't the end of the world.

What he said
 
Okay, I'm not completely comfortable with them but Byzantines will stay. In other news, the Anasazi are coming in 1.17, and possibly the Kongo too.
 
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