Feedback: Tech Tree

[Xyth]

Actually what i could do is move the Observatory back to Optics (early Renaissance). I keep forgetting that the University in HR is the Great Scientist building and thus it doesn't hurt having both the University and Observatory available at similar times as not all cities will have a University.

Thus we'd have the Libarary in the early Classical era, School in the early Medieval era, Observatory in the early Renaissance, and the Laboratory in the early Industrial era. Beautifully spaced out!


EDIT: I'd have to move the Laboratory's spaceship production bonus elsewhere though, makes no sense being that early.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Actually what i could do is move the Observatory back to Optics (early Renaissance). I keep forgetting that the University in HR is the Great Scientist building and thus it doesn't hurt having both the University and Observatory available at similar times as not all cities will have a University.

Thus we'd have the Libarary in the early Classical era, School in the early Medieval era, Observatory in the early Renaissance, and the Laboratory in the early Industrial era. Beautifully spaced out!

D'oh. I was thinking of the University in its BTS capacity, not the School (which is effectively a renamed University now). But yes, that works quite well and gives us a steady progression of science infrastructure throughout the early and mid-games.

EDIT: I'd have to move the Laboratory's spaceship production bonus elsewhere though, makes no sense being that early.

Hmmmm.

We could have an actual Spaceport improvement, maybe? Something that represents facilities like Cape Kennedy and Baikonur? I'm not sure what else it would do, we can work that out. Could call it Spaceport, which is generic, or... Cosmodrome just sounds cool to me. I dunno.

And yes, at the moment facilities like that are thin on the ground, but then we're nowhere near ready to start building an interstellar colony ship yet. By the time anyone actually tried to do that, the infrastructure would be there and you'd almost have to have a nation's space launch capability distributed among multiple cities.

If we can figure out what to do with it, Spaceport also gives us the advantage of creating something else to build in the late game. I'd have to look over the tech tree to figure out exactly where it belongs, mind you.

I can't swear to there being art for such a thing, mind you, but I would think there would be something we could use somewhere.

As an interim solution, just leave the spaceship component bonus where it is- no actual harm done by putting it unreasonably early in the game, even if it is a bit silly.

 

[Mr. Sulu]

We could actually make A Separate Building, called a "Spaceship Factory", unlocking at composites which would provide +2 Engineers, +50% Spaceship Production, however would be limited to 6 per nation, scaling on mapsize. This would prevent someone from building them anywhere, and would require you to plan more in-depth for where you're going to build your spaceship parts. It should also be expensive, maybe at least 1200-1300 Hammers to represent the immense cost of creating such things to service shuttlecraft. This would prioritize high-production cities even more if you want to win a space victory. To strengthen the Laboratory increase the bonus to +50% percent and remove the unhealthiness bonus, if you haven't done so already. The extra science will make up for the longer HR tech tree as well.

 

[Simon_Jester]

We could actually make A Separate Building, called a "Spaceship Factory", unlocking at composites which would provide +2 Engineers, +50% Spaceship Production, however would be limited to 6 per nation, scaling on mapsize. This would prevent someone from building them anywhere, and would require you to plan more in-depth for where you're going to build your spaceship parts. It should also be expensive, maybe at least 1200-1300 Hammers to represent the immense cost of creating such things to service shuttlecraft.

...How much do spaceship parts cost, anyway? It doesn't make any sense to spend 1200 hammers to build something that gives you a 50% bonus to something that only costs 1200-1500 hammers to begin with...

I favor "Spaceport" or "Cosmodrome" or the like as the name of the improvement. A free engineer, scientist, both, some combination like that would be good as a benefit. It should require the Airport improvement, and be... expensive but not ludicrously so- you have to give people a reason not to build it just anywhere.

Hmmm. Can you make it so that you have to have X airports built in order to create one spaceport, just as you need X temples to build one cathedral? That would be a good way of limiting numbers.

This would prioritize high-production cities even more if you want to win a space victory. To strengthen the Laboratory increase the bonus to +50% percent and remove the unhealthiness bonus, if you haven't done so already. The extra science will make up for the longer HR tech tree as well.

Since he just increased game length to 600 turns, it's probably just as well if he doesn't tamper further with Laboratory until we've had a chance to test that out.

I personally dislike the health penalty because I don't feel it's particularly realistic; it's not like major research facilities pollute on anything like the scale of industrial facilities.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I'm baaack...


EVANGELISM

Evangelism is a type of religion which sees expanding itself as a sacred duty. This view begins with the idea of a specific religion as being at the center of one's existence. To the evangelist, it isn't simply a matter of appeasing one's own gods, with other people having other gods. It isn't a matter of trying to become personally enlightened. No, this enlightenment must be spread to others, or the reverence of this god must be something that it would be good for everyone to share.

Therefore, to the evangelist, the very existence of unbelievers is a disastrous state of the world. It is a crisis facing the souls of the human race, an emptiness in the collective spirit of humanity, and possibly a personal insult as well. Evangelists will go forth and preach to others, converting outsiders to the faith, and to their own specific versions of the faith- by hook or by crook.

FERTILIZER

Fertilizers are substances which increase the fertility of soil by introducing nutrients that are normally lacking. Since nutrient deficiencies in substances like carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus are often bottlenecks in plant growth, fertilizer makes plants to grow larger and more quickly. This is especially desirable in agriculture, as it allows the same land to feed more people.

Fertilization has been a common practice throughout the civilized world since prehistoric times. Farmers in nearly all places fertilized their fields with simple materials like animal (or human) dung, ground-up fish remains, or potsherds (most fertile soil in the Amazon basin is laced with broken pottery, and this appears to have been deliberate on the natives' part).

During the 19th and 20th centuries, the range of available fertilizers has grown dramatically. Industrial-scale extraction of minerals, particularly nitrates and phosphates, allowed vast increases in farm output. Advances in industrial chemistry allowed factories to create fully synthetic fertilizers too, using customized organic molecules to speed the growth of crops and inhibit the growth of weeds and parasites. This contributes to the success of the "Green Revolution" of the 1960s and 1970s at feeding a world population of seven billion and rising.

In general, fertilizer achieves varying success. Used carelessly, it may not contribute to soil fertility (adding more of what's already there is pointless), or even decrease it (adding enough phosphorus to maximize growth may result in all the carbon in the soil being used up quickly). This is a particularly serious problem with "Green Revolution" crops in the modern era.

FILM

One of the many great inventions of the mid-19th century was 'moving pictures.' By creating a narrow strip of transparent 'film' with tiny still images impressed on it, and rapidly moving this film past a light source, the images could be projected onto a wall or screen. Changing the image fast enough (~10 times per second) creates the illusion of motion, allowing artists to show an audience a moving, lifelike image of events on screen.

This gave rise to the first "mass media." The creation of motion pictures became a professionalized industry, with a special class of artists who were experts at using techniques like camera angles and special effects to evoke emotion. It also created a new class of celebrity- the movie star, who was seen by millions on a regular basis where an ordinary actor would never appear before more than a few thousand people at a time.

Film could be used for educational or news purposes as well- and became a popular vehicle for state propaganda, since it was easily reproduced for use by the masses, but had to be created by specialists if it was to have the desired impact.

 

[lindsay40k]

Radio > Film

I understand these technologies were developed in parallel, not sequence.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Film here may refer not to the physical technology but to the institutions- to "cinema," not to Edison's early silent film experiments.

The movie industry developed along with radio and didn't really take off until a time when radio was fairly widespread.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I do not know what difference any of this makes.

I believe that radio as entertainment became big in the US in the 1920s.
Radio as a means of long range communication for important messages was a decade or two earlier.

Film as in cinema for entertainment wa big in the US by 1910 and became bigger over time.

Film here may refer not to the physical technology but to the institutions- to "cinema," not to Edison's early silent film experiments.

The movie industry developed along with radio and didn't really take off until a time when radio was fairly widespread.

 

[Packherd2]

In case you haven't got one already, I just heard this and thought it would be perfect for the Nobility tech:

A fully equipped English duke costs as much as two dreadnaughts, is every bit as great a terror, and lasts a great deal longer.
–David Lloyd George

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

I've gotten back into civilization again, and decided to download the latest version of the mod. But the tech tree is extremely annoying. To research a certain tech, you have to research nearly everything two to five columns earlier than it.
EXAMPLE:
Rifling. In order to get rifling, here are some irrelevant techs you need to research:
Meteorology
Constitution
Corporation
Economics
Medicine
Theology
Ethics
Philosophy

 

[Xyth]

I've gotten back into civilization again, and decided to download the latest version of the mod. But the tech tree is extremely annoying. To research a certain tech, you have to research nearly everything two to five columns earlier than it.

Yep. The tree is designed so you can't rush through eras and beeline for specific strong techs in the next one. I want there to be a sense of being 'in' each era, you have to develop all aspects of your civilization before you can advance. Units should have a decent length of time in play before they become obsolete.

Rifling. In order to get rifling, here are some irrelevant techs you need to research:
Meteorology
Constitution
Corporation
Economics
Medicine
Theology
Ethics
Philosophy

Any tech tree is like that, unless it has almost completely separate 'lines' with little to no crossover (and thus poor gameplay). It's like saying, "I want to research Nuclear Fission - why do I need Agriculture or Law?" You don't directly, but to build a society capable of even considering nuclear fission requires an awful lot of indirect development. Rifling doesn't need Meteorology but Physics certainly does, and Rifling certainly requires Physics. Rifling doesn't need Economics, but Replaceable Parts does and Rifling requires Replaceable Parts. It's just how tech trees work. HR's is a bit stricter than many, yes, but I've explained why above.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Yep. The tree is designed so you can't rush through eras and beeline for specific strong techs in the next one. I want there to be a sense of being 'in' each era, you have to develop all aspects of your civilization before you can advance. Units should have a decent length of time in play before they become obsolete.



Any tech tree is like that, unless it has almost completely separate 'lines' with little to no crossover (and thus poor gameplay). It's like saying, "I want to research Nuclear Fission - why do I need Agriculture or Law?" You don't directly, but to build a society capable of even considering nuclear fission requires an awful lot of indirect development. Rifling doesn't need Meteorology but Physics certainly does, and Rifling certainly requires Physics. Rifling doesn't need Economics, but Replaceable Parts does and Rifling requires Replaceable Parts. It's just how tech trees work. HR's is a bit stricter than many, yes, but I've explained why above.

It's too strict. I pulled those examples because they aren't even absolutely necessary for what they lead directly towards.
Meteorology is not necessary for the physics of rifling. Having to research everything with an arrow leading towards a tech is annoying. Perhaps you could do something similar to the original tech tree and have certain later technologies require earlier ones, such as meteorology? That way, you don't get too far ahead, but you aren't learning to dance in order to build tanks.

 

[Simon_Jester]

It's too strict. I pulled those examples because they aren't even absolutely necessary for what they lead directly towards.
Meteorology is not necessary for the physics of rifling. Having to research everything with an arrow leading towards a tech is annoying. Perhaps you could do something similar to the original tech tree and have certain later technologies require earlier ones, such as meteorology? That way, you don't get too far ahead, but you aren't learning to dance in order to build tanks.

I don't think this is in keeping with the nature of the mod, or for that matter the game in general.

Civ is about building a civilization, not an army (or for that matter a dance troupe). The entire purpose of the game is to be growing your civilization in multiple ways, so that it becomes systematically better over time- not to stay stuck in the Dark Ages in terms of economic and political structure, and impoverished in terms of culture, while somehow turning into a military supermonster. That is a deeply unrealistic, anti-historical thing.

In real life, powerful, successful civilizations succeed in multiple ways. To take an example- the British ruled over India for roughly 200 years; how did this happen. In Civilization terms, the British had many advantages.

-Ships: the British could sail to India, the Indians could not sail to Britain. This gave the British the freedom to engage or disengage with any part of the Indian subcontinent- if the ruler of one city drove them out, they could simply pack up their bags and sail to another one. No Indian ruler could actually prevent the British from bringing gold, troops, and influence to India as a whole.

-Resources: the British had a global empire and the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution at home. They could produce all sorts of goods, including things that no Indian had access to.

-Organization: India at the time was ruled by a decaying Mughal Empire in the north, which was so fallen-apart that it actively sold off tax collection and law enforcement rights over whole provinces to the British East India Company because they needed the money. And a large number of relatively small city-states and principalities in the south. No government in India had the strength to stand against the East India Company alone, not when the Company could simply ally with one local power bloc against another, play them off against each other, conquer the loser and co-opt the winner.

Meanwhile, Britain had a unified Parliament that could set laws and policies which gave the Company a very secure base and niche in the global empire Britain was building at the time. And the Company itself was much larger and more organized than any trading concern India had ever seen before. In short, India was disorganized for a number of reasons, Britain was organized.

-Weapons: this was actually one of the least important factors. Sure, the British had muskets and cannons, but so did the Indians, and by and large the British muskets of 1750 weren't obviously superior to the Indian muskets. About the only difference was the scale of production- Britain had dedicated arsenals turning out large numbers of reliable-quality weapons, where India may have had more trouble supplying its armies.

Now, in Civ IV, modeling a conquest like this is tricky but possible. But you'll note that what the British did NOT do is deliberately neglect all their economic and social stuff so that they could concentrate all their energy on war.

No long-lasting major civilization has ever done this. There are barbarian tribes that concentrated on war, but they never managed to rule for very long without being absorbed by their conquerors. Huns invaded Europe and took half the Roman Empire- but lost it again in a matter of a few short years. Mongols spread out over most of Asia- but broke up into squabbling principalities and soon assimilated and went native in China, Russia, and the Middle East.

In Civ IV, most of the technologies don't just represent being able to make a specific thing. They represent institutions, the facilities to make things, the doctrines and techniques that tell you how to use them. And in general, when one civilization triumphs over another in real life, it's not just by having a few cool toys the other side doesn't. It's by having an across-the-board advantage in many areas.

Modeling that well requires a tightly interwoven tech tree. Because otherwise you get bizarre impossibilities like a bunch of primitives who can't print books and haven't got the hang of not emptying their chamberpots into their drinking water... but who have inexplicably figured out how to build tanks and jet bombers. Build, in great quantities, too- not just buy them.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

I don't think this is in keeping with the nature of the mod, or for that matter the game in general.

Civ is about building a civilization, not an army (or for that matter a dance troupe). The entire purpose of the game is to be growing your civilization in multiple ways, so that it becomes systematically better over time- not to stay stuck in the Dark Ages in terms of economic and political structure, and impoverished in terms of culture, while somehow turning into a military supermonster. That is a deeply unrealistic, anti-historical thing.

In real life, powerful, successful civilizations succeed in multiple ways. To take an example- the British ruled over India for roughly 200 years; how did this happen. In Civilization terms, the British had many advantages.

-Ships: the British could sail to India, the Indians could not sail to Britain. This gave the British the freedom to engage or disengage with any part of the Indian subcontinent- if the ruler of one city drove them out, they could simply pack up their bags and sail to another one. No Indian ruler could actually prevent the British from bringing gold, troops, and influence to India as a whole.

-Resources: the British had a global empire and the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution at home. They could produce all sorts of goods, including things that no Indian had access to.

-Organization: India at the time was ruled by a decaying Mughal Empire in the north, which was so fallen-apart that it actively sold off tax collection and law enforcement rights over whole provinces to the British East India Company because they needed the money. And a large number of relatively small city-states and principalities in the south. No government in India had the strength to stand against the East India Company alone, not when the Company could simply ally with one local power bloc against another, play them off against each other, conquer the loser and co-opt the winner.

Meanwhile, Britain had a unified Parliament that could set laws and policies which gave the Company a very secure base and niche in the global empire Britain was building at the time. And the Company itself was much larger and more organized than any trading concern India had ever seen before. In short, India was disorganized for a number of reasons, Britain was organized.

-Weapons: this was actually one of the least important factors. Sure, the British had muskets and cannons, but so did the Indians, and by and large the British muskets of 1750 weren't obviously superior to the Indian muskets. About the only difference was the scale of production- Britain had dedicated arsenals turning out large numbers of reliable-quality weapons, where India may have had more trouble supplying its armies.

Now, in Civ IV, modeling a conquest like this is tricky but possible. But you'll note that what the British did NOT do is deliberately neglect all their economic and social stuff so that they could concentrate all their energy on war.

No long-lasting major civilization has ever done this. There are barbarian tribes that concentrated on war, but they never managed to rule for very long without being absorbed by their conquerors. Huns invaded Europe and took half the Roman Empire- but lost it again in a matter of a few short years. Mongols spread out over most of Asia- but broke up into squabbling principalities and soon assimilated and went native in China, Russia, and the Middle East.

In Civ IV, most of the technologies don't just represent being able to make a specific thing. They represent institutions, the facilities to make things, the doctrines and techniques that tell you how to use them. And in general, when one civilization triumphs over another in real life, it's not just by having a few cool toys the other side doesn't. It's by having an across-the-board advantage in many areas.

Modeling that well requires a tightly interwoven tech tree. Because otherwise you get bizarre impossibilities like a bunch of primitives who can't print books and haven't got the hang of not emptying their chamberpots into their drinking water... but who have inexplicably figured out how to build tanks and jet bombers. Build, in great quantities, too- not just buy them.

Ah, but it's too tightly woven right now. Geology requires... charter. Getting boats to go do things for you. That's a direct prerequisite.

 

[Simon_Jester]

You misunderstand Charter- didn't I write a Civilopedia entry for that thing?

"Charter" refers to early corporations, which generally got royal/parliamentary commissions to operate in a specific area. Most of them were overseas trading consortiums- the East India Company being an example, but far from the only one. The reason it enables Privateer and is generally nautical in its effects is that historically, there was a strong tie between the creation of these private entities and the spread of private warships and private mercantile interests across the world.

It does NOT mean "the idea of 'chartering' a boat."



Now, you might reasonably argue that even so it's not really relevant to the science of geology. That's a separate question...

In general, I DID notice that the current iteration of the tech tree has a very sharp bottleneck around Scientific Method: essentially every single tech in the row after it (or nearly all of them, anyway) depends on already having it.



EDIT: Oh, by the way, I think Great Engineers should be able to discover Nanotechnology, Bionics, Cybernetics, and possibly Fusion. Those are all areas where even when the pure research is done, there are major engineering problems to tackle before the technology gets into widespread usage.

If we weren't committed to that neat taper in the Future era, it would be interesting to think about 'cultural' or economic technologies that might go in there. Personally I think Next War didn't go nearly far enough or think widely enough.

 

[Azoth]

The tech tree is tightly woven because it reflects the nature of the mod. That's true enough.

But, for my part, I would like to see more flexibility when it comes to discovering technologies with Great People. As it is, Great People can only discover technologies in the current or next row of the tech tree. (Sometimes, they cannot discover any technology at all.) This is rarely worthwhile, since players will soon research those technologies themselves. There are few opportunities for genuine "breakthroughs" like in BtS. I wonder if Great People could be programmed to ignore technology prerequisites. The priority list for discovering technologies would have to be rewritten; no one should stumble upon the Scientific Method in the Ancient Era. And yet, it does not seem unreasonable that a Great Scientist could discover Philosophy in the Ancient Era, in the absence of an established Priesthood; or that a Great Artist could discover Aesthetics, without a formal system of Philosophy.

 

[Xyth]

Ah, but it's too tightly woven right now. Geology requires... charter. Getting boats to go do things for you. That's a direct prerequisite.

Now, you might reasonably argue that even so it's not really relevant to the science of geology. That's a separate question...

In general, I DID notice that the current iteration of the tech tree has a very sharp bottleneck around Scientific Method: essentially every single tech in the row after it (or nearly all of them, anyway) depends on already having it.

The tech tree is tightly woven because it reflects the nature of the mod. That's true enough.

There's bound to be a few places in the tree that could be loosened up a little. Specific examples help, I'll look into Scientific Method but I don't consider Rifling to be an issue.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I think Great Engineers should be able to discover Nanotechnology, Bionics, Cybernetics, and possibly Fusion. Those are all areas where even when the pure research is done, there are major engineering problems to tackle before the technology gets into widespread usage.

I do need to review the Great Person techs again soon. Added to the todo list.

If we weren't committed to that neat taper in the Future era, it would be interesting to think about 'cultural' or economic technologies that might go in there. Personally I think Next War didn't go nearly far enough or think widely enough.

Yeah, Next War is pretty narrowly focused. I guess the name gives it away. I wouldn't mind expanding the Future Era at some point though, some of my earlier drafts of the tree had a much longer taper with a wider array of techs. I'd still want it to stay a 'near future' era though. Not a priority at this time though, still so much to do in the existing eras.

But, for my part, I would like to see more flexibility when it comes to discovering technologies with Great People. As it is, Great People can only discover technologies in the current or next row of the tech tree. (Sometimes, they cannot discover any technology at all.) This is rarely worthwhile, since players will soon research those technologies themselves. There are few opportunities for genuine "breakthroughs" like in BtS. I wonder if Great People could be programmed to ignore technology prerequisites. The priority list for discovering technologies would have to be rewritten; no one should stumble upon the Scientific Method in the Ancient Era. And yet, it does not seem unreasonable that a Great Scientist could discover Philosophy in the Ancient Era, in the absence of an established Priesthood; or that a Great Artist could discover Aesthetics, without a formal system of Philosophy.

That would require coding a new mechanic for tech discovery, as the existing one isn't accessible. Could be interesting if done carefully. Not a small task though.

 

[Simon_Jester]

There's bound to be a few places in the tree that could be loosened up a little. Specific examples help, I'll look into Scientific Method but I don't consider Rifling to be an issue.

I'd have to give it some thought and experiment to be able to help.

I agree with Azoth about the Great Person thing. The tight-woven tech tree does have that effect- the number of techs a given Great Person can discover is about the same as in vanilla, but there are 50% more technologies which drives down the percentage of accessible technologies drastically. And then there's the prerequisite thing, which means that at a given time you may only have a few technologies available for research if you don't advance in a very, very smooth and uniform fashion across the tree.

I do need to review the Great Person techs again soon. Added to the todo list.

I may be able to advise on that, but not right now.

Yeah, Next War is pretty narrowly focused. I guess the name gives it away. I wouldn't mind expanding the Future Era at some point though, some of my earlier drafts of the tree had a much longer taper with a wider array of techs. I'd still want it to stay a 'near future' era though. Not a priority at this time though, still so much to do in the existing eras.

Yes, true. Although I'm not talking about adding super-futuristic stuff like hovertanks or whatnot. I'm thinking more in terms of adding more technology that reflects evolution of society and whatnot.


It'd be kind of cool if we could have something like Alpha Centauri's "Future Society" civics. As it is, most civics become available by the Industrial Age, so your society pretty much enters its final form in the local equivalent of 1900-1920 real time. And none of the civics really reflects any concept that postdates 1960- environmentalism and the civil rights movement.

Having a list of civics that reflect current or modern trends and how those trends are qualitatively different from what came before... that would be cool although difficult.


For some examples- look at various directions certain societies are evolving today. You've got the almost anarcho-capitalist sentiments best exemplified by parts of the American right, you've got the "surveillance state" possibility created by modern computer networks, with cameras everywhere and face recognition and police drones with sensors that can see people moving around behind walls. You've got other, more fanciful ideas- what about a "cyber-democracy," which implements direct democracy on a larger scale using computer networks? What about a society where we start using genetic engineering to tinker babies? That might only be twenty years down the road...

Hm. I don't know what to say.

 

[Howard Mahler]

As has been pointed out by others, links across the tech tree versus being able to beeline, is a tension. Too much beelining leads to a poor game in my opinion.
I think the current HR tree is close to the right mix.
At most stages you have several choices, but it is very hard to ignore other techs in a column for too long.
There may be a few places where things can be loosened, but it is very good overall currently. This represents significant tightening from very early versions.

Taking the tech tree too literally does not lead to a good game. Any tech tree is at best a rough approximation to a much more complicated real world. For example, some prerequisites will be less than obvious.

 

[Azoth]

Well, you knew this was coming. More quotes!
First, the technologies that lack quotes in 1.17: (Let's squeeze them in to 1.18.)

Alchemy
Current: NONE
Suggested: The laws of nature are just but terrible. The fire burns, the water drowns, the air consumes, the earth buries. -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Alchemy quotes are hard to find. This one talks about the four elements.


Automobile
Current: NONE
Suggested: Everything in life is somewhere else, and you get there in a car. -E. B. White

Combustion
Current: Everything in life is somewhere else, and you get there in a car. -E. B. White
Suggested: O, for an engine, to keep back all clocks, or make the sun forget its motion! -Ben Johnson

The current Combustion quote is perfect for the Automobile. Let's swap it for a quote about engines.


Cybernetics
Current: NONE
Suggested: If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. -Lyall Watson


Ethics
Current: NONE
Suggested: Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become universal law. -Immanuel Kant

The Categorical Imperative, as stated in the Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals. A central concept in moral philosophy. Also: The Golden Rule.


Geology
Current: NONE
Suggested: Mountain peak or ocean floor, palace, or pigsty. There are plenty of ruined buildings in the world but no ruined stones. -Christopher Murray Grieve


Agriculture
Current: Where tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers therefore are the founders of civilization. -Daniel Webster
Suggested: The first farmer was the first man. All historic nobility rests on the possession and use of land. -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Horticulture
Current: NONE
Suggested: Where tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers therefore are the founders of civilization. -Daniel Webster

Both quotes mean basically the same thing but they were the best I could find.


Nobility
Current: NONE
Suggested: Nonsense is the privilege of the aristocracy. The worries of the world are for the common people. -George Jean Nathan

Lots and lots of options here. Let me know if you're looking for something specific.


Stirrups
Current: NONE
Suggested: Betwixt the stirrup and the ground / Mercy I asked, mercy I found. -William Camden


Satellites
Current: The earth is the cradle of the mind but one cannot eternally live in a cradle. -Konstantin Tsiolkovsky
Suggested: NO CHANGE

Space Flight
Current: The earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind cannot stay in the cradle forever. -Konstantin Tsiolkovsky
Suggested: That's one small step for man; one giant leap for humanity. -Neil Armstrong

We can't have two technologies with the same quote!