Courthouse UB -> Cathedral. requires Chapel in the city. (-50% maintenance, +1 happy from incense, +2 culture, +1 priest slot)
new 'bannor specific' wonder-> Grand Cathedral (Or St. Sabathiel's Basilica). requires Cathedral in the city, requires at least 4 chapels nation wide. Religious Law tech. (+3 priest slots, +1 gold from priests, +2 gold from great prophets, +1 hammer from great prophets)
Of course, a downside is that it makes their law 3 spell useless, but I think Magister, iirc, also allowed Bannor specific Law Archmages to cast Unyielding Order (similar to Order priors).
Hmm, in this mod was pillar of fire re-added to Priors in general? b/c both UO and PoF make sense thematically and lore wise as far as Order Priors go. And UO makes a lotta sense as a bannor archmage too (even though they don't have many archmages, I figure any that did exist would be almost priest like in nature)
Actually, I moved Unyielding Order to be a second Law III spell for everyone. I always considered Valor to be took weak for a top tier spell by itself, and did not like restricting Unyielding Order to a religion that has so many other ways to reduce crime and maintenance.
Pillar of Fire is the Order High Priest spell in my modmod. (Chalid and Brigit both have their own copies of the spell too.)
The Pontif UU replaced Priors for the Bannor. They have all of the abilities of Priors but also start with the Law III, Recruiter, and Evangelist promotions.
(Originally I called them Patriarchs, but then I reread the pedia and scenario texts and found that the term Patriarch is only used to describe Varn Gossam's position in the Empyrean, whereas the only Bannor High Priest of the Order mentioned by name is called Pontif Elmin. It should perhaps be noted though the Tale of Saverous includes a character named Pontif Elim, but Saverous seems to think that Pontif is his first name rather than a title and that he is merely a diminutive herbalist rather than a high ranking priest. Saverous could just be ignorant of the importance of the man who saved him, but if that is the case it seems odd that he never mentions Junil or tells Valin Phanuel who he is.)
Yes, it works like works like Donal Lugh's one time recruitment except that they cannot get it back by slaying demonic or undead units like the hero can.
I changed the Recruit spell so that it only kills the caster if it is a Commander (actually UNITCLASS_GREAT_GENERAL in any of the versions that includes More Naval AI) rather than killing the caster unless it is Donal Lugh (as base FfH2 does).
The Evangelist promotion is a prerequisite for the Evangelize to City and Evangelize to Units spells/abilities.
(Every religion except the Council of Esus has its own version of these two spells. Esus does not need it, as any unit with the religion can spend money to spread it, and in my modmod there is also another spell that allows a unit to spend gold to be initiated into that faith.)
The former ability allow a unit to spread its religion to the city it is in without sacrificing the unit. (There is a 25% chance of miscasting and failing to spread the faith for the standard 7 religions plus the Cult of the Dragon. The chance of failure is 50% for The Children of the One and 65% for The White Hand.)
The latter ability allows a unit to spread its religion to other units nearby. It only works on living units that are not animals, not beasts, would not abandon its owner for changing state religion, and are not the avatar of any player (a More Naval AI mechanic used for costing a player its traits if the unit representing the leader is lost). It can be resisted. The standard religions' versions of the ability have a resist modify of 20 (this makes it 20% more likely for the unit to resist, but the actual chance of resistance also controlled by the respective promotions of the caster and the targets. I believe that resistance chances are also capped at 95% and floored at 5%), whereas The Cult of the Dragon and The Children of the One have a resist modify of 10 and The White Hand has a resist modify of 60.
The Evangelist promotion can be purchased by disciple units with Divine I (i.e., Priests of the various religions, and their upgrades) of at least level 4 whose owners know the Fanaticism technology. The Dragon Fanatics (which also require Fanaticism) start with this promotion so they can cause havoc by spreading The Cult of the Dragon to your enemies. The constellation events associated with specific religions (i.e., those which allow players to get a free golden age of they have the right state religion) also have options to buy a disciple unit with this promotion, provided you already know the technology that founds that religion. (That is helpful in case the disciple you got for free when you got the tech failed to spread its religion, or if the city where it was spread has since been lost or the religion lost to an inquisition.)
True, but there a few people I very much hate, and that doesn't seem to have improved my ability to kill them. The two elven civilizations don't like each other very much, but they don't get any extra ability to kill one-another from it.
Here I agree... I commented only on the "it is not "we don't like orcs".
I would propose that bannors get a "free" valor promotion.. but only to specific units.
-maybe spell allowed to Prior UU ?
-maybe spell (or only the promotion) allowed to Royal guard replacement ?
-maybe for crusader or templar units ? (fanatiscism Order's armed disciple)(for the one that not need crusade civic as prerequist).
Bannor melee could also get the courage promotion from start.
and maybe a smallish % vs demons.
maybe also a :angry: when AV is present, 2:angry: when AV is state religion.
2 when order is state religion, 1 when Empy is state religion.
(either as a UB for pagan temple, or for the courthouse)
Actually, I moved Unyielding Order to be a second Law III spell for everyone. I always considered Valor to be took weak for a top tier spell by itself, and did not like restricting Unyielding Order to a religion that has so many other ways to reduce crime and maintenance.
(There is a 25% chance of miscasting and failing to spread the faith for the standard 7 religions plus the Cult of the Dragon. The chance of failure is 50% for The Children of the One and 65% for The White Hand.)
I guess I forgot to mention happiness bonuses like that from Social Order, which grants +1 happy per military unit in the city. A large enough army can eliminate any problems with unhappiness. Since it is the number of units rather than the strength that matters, building many cheap warriors for his purpose can be quite effective.
In base FfH2 he Bannor cannot use this at the same time as their unique Crusade civic, but in my modmod Crusade was moved the the Membership category along with the Undercouncil and Overcouncil.
The Children of the One is the name I gave to he faith of the Luonnotar. No leader is allowed to make it his state religion. Its presence is a city can lead to a monotheist revolt, eliminating the other religions in said city (including the owner's state religion). Priests (i.e., units with Divine I) who are converted to this religion are automatically disbanded. The religion does not effect angel or mane gifting, but any unit that returns as either (a mane if it had a promotion like death I or an angel if it was of Basium's team) get the Magic Immune promotion.
Might help to re-read some stuff in the 'pedia for inspiration, that's what I did. The Bannor get several mentions in the Fall from Heaven History, and of course the Bannor 'pedia entry has a lot of info that might give you some ideas. The entries for Capria and Donal Lugh are fun reading, about their escape from Hell and winding up in the middle of the Clan of Embers.
In addition to what I've posted earlier, a few more things that jumped out at me:
City defenses and effects of Bannor Palace
The Bannor 'pedia entry says "Because they need to be defended and ready at all times, outlying villages are more like forts, every farm is a small castle, the cities are huge garrison towns but also centers of trade, religion, and diplomacy." Could have the Bannor UB -- whether you call it the Cathedral or rename it -- give something like +10% city defense to reflect that. (Don't know how you would reflect "every farm is a small castle," except maybe by giving Bannor units a defensive bonus on farms, or having farms add to the defense bonus of neighboring cities, or maybe even having farms in Bannor territory spawn some low-level defensive unit.)
An easier way to handle this could be to have the Bannor Palace give +10% defense in all cities, and maybe +20% in the capital.
The 'pedia also describes the Bannor capital as "a sprawling, international metropolis matched by few other cities in Erebus." If you want to make it "sprawling," could have the Bannor Palace act like the City of a Thousand Slums, allowing the Bannor capital to work the third ring of tiles.
And to reflect the militarization of the society, could have the Bannor Palace act like the Form of the Titan, giving +2XP to all units.
Multiracial and multinational army
Enough on the Bannor Palace, the other thing that jumped out at me was that "People of all races flock to the city to swell the ranks of the Orders" and the mention of "a multiracial, multinational and multicultural army and administration." Earlier I proposed some special Bannor-only recurring events for this, but there might be another way of handling this:
I remember that in Fall Further and RifE the Elohim can build Verdandis, which are otherwise Doviello units. (I think the idea was to have some kind of Byzantine Empire-Varangian Guard vibe.) You might consider allowing the Bannor to build limited numbers (maybe 4 each?) of units normally buildable by other civs, to reflect people coming to join them. I don't think it would be game-breaking for the Bannor to be able to build, say, 4 Dwarven Slingers, Nyxkins, Camel Archers, Firebows, etc. I would exclude non-living units, since I don't picture Golems and Pyre Zombies migrating to Torrolerial. Also, exclude Orcish units, obviously.
Downside is that this could resemble the Elohim Tolerant trait too much, and usually people don't like repeating game mechanics.
Relations with Clan of Embers
One quick thing on the Bannor's relations with the Clan. I remember reading somewhere that when the AC hit a certain number (maybe 20?) the Ljosalfar and Svartalfar were likely to declare war on each other. Could do something similar with the Bannor and the Clan. Wouldn't really mean much in MP, but still.
I did a little soul searching today and came to the conclusion that the Bannor are in a situation similar to the Amurites. That is, I can add all the tid-bits and pieces I want, but at the end of the day, it's not going to matter unless I address the elephant in the room. For the Amurites, it was sucky Adepts. For the Bannor, it's Crusade.
What is it about Crusade that's lackluster? For one, it doesn't feel like a religious crusade. Really, besides the happiness bonus from the civic, religion and Crusade are entirely disjointed. Demagogs aren't even born with the state religion. The civic may as well be called 'Super War'.
So, wanting to bring religion into the fold, I came up with this slate of changes:
Traits:
Evangelical: Civ trait. All Disciple units get Command I and Command II
UBs:
Cathedral: UU for Courthouse. Can be built during war. Causes non-state religion spreads to fail often, even if no religion is present in the city. If constructed in a city during Crusade, automatically spreads the State Religion.
Grand Temple of the Order: UU for Temple of the Order. +10% , nearby Demagogs will occasionally be born with the State Religion.
Grand Basilica: UU for Basilica. Gives two priest specialist slots, and occasionally spawns Martyrs from Towns during Crusade. If constructed in a city during Crusade, automatically removes non-State Religions.
UUs:
Martyr: Like Demagog, but does collateral damage and dies after combat. Spawns occasionally from Towns where the working City has a Grand Basilica.
Templar: UU for Acolyte, can be used to build a fort, increased chance to spawn a Templar on religion spread.
Inquisitioner: UU for Confessor. Starts with Inquisition, +25% vs Disciple units.
Patriarch: UU for Prior. Starts with Recruit; recruited units all belong to the Order, +25% vs Disciple units
Vanguard of Junil: UU for Crusader. Starts with Loyalty. Can spread Order once.
---
Now, nothing is finalized, but I really like these changes. You'll be on an actual religious crusade, wiping non-believers off the map. Even if you're not Order, Cathedrals will at least spread your faith and keep other faiths out. It may take some tinkering, but I think this is the path I'm going to go down for the Bannor.
Alright, I took what you've got, and put my own spin on it. Let me know what you think
Traits:
Guardsman: Civ trait. Melee and Disciple units start with Guardsman, Valor, and Demon Slaying. Double Production speed of Basilica.
National Ability: (defined in Spell infos XML file)*
Evangelical -> Disciple units can spread state religion with gold (as long as they have Channeling 2 ... ie priests only)
*would probably have to define 6 spells (one for each religion with an associated priest unit)
would have to make a check that the unit is Disciple unitcombat with Channeling 2 promotion, is the relevant religion, and that said relevant religion is, in fact, the current state religion. Then would define a gold cost (probably 25 gold)
UB’s:
Cathedral: UB for Courthouse. Can be built during crusade. Causes non-state religion spreads to fail often, even if no religion is present in the city. If constructed in a city during Crusade, automatically spreads the State Religion.
Church of Sabathiel: UB for Temple of the Order. +10% , -10% maintenance, nearby Demagogs will occasionally be born with the State Religion.
Basilica Sancta: UB for Basilica. Gives two priest specialist slots, and occasionally spawns Martyrs from Towns during Crusade. If constructed in a city during Crusade, automatically removes non-State Religions. (Crusaders will double in number under the hallowed walls of a Basilica [Basilica Sancta acts like a 'warrens' for Crusaders]-> its doable, I did it in a mod once. (in spoilers)
Spoiler:
Just attach a promo to crusaders/Templars and associate that with the 'new' Basilica python code. New as in just copied/modified from the Warrens. This promo-based doubling is how you can get Warrens variations that only works on Goblins or Lizardmen, assuming each have a unique promotion (usually lizard race or goblin race). An example would be ... "Basilica Sancta: doubles all Disciple units with the zealot promotion" or something. But in C/python type code of course ... ie if Disciple, if returnunitpromotions = zealot, etc ... or something like that, forget the exact code
UU’s:
Martyr: Like Demagog, but does collateral damage and dies after combat. Spawns occasionally from Towns when the working City has a Basilica Sancta. Martyrs will always spawn with the State religion
Templar: UU for Crusader, can be used to build a fort, spawns Templar on conquest. Spreads state religion on conquest. (if the unit captures the city)
Patriarch: UU for Prior. Starts with Recruit; recruited units all belong to the Order, +25% vs Disciple units
Crusaders -> during a crusade, newly built Crusaders start with City Attack 1, and March.
Confessors-> during a crusade, newly built Confessors start with the Inquisitor promotion, Command 1, and Command 2.
(either that, or if a Basilica Sancta is in the city)
------------------------
As a disclaimer, some of the above (namely promos applied during crusade) I do not know how to code. However I thought it was worth a shot to suggest it, as many of your proposed changes I would have no idea for how to code.
Now for the UB names.
I think "Confessor" should be the proper name for Bannor priests of Order, as it is one of the most lore appropriate names I know. Also, at least to me, 'Confessor' sounds like an Inquisitor that took a level in badass. Sword of Truth series anyone?
Spoiler:
Hint: Mother Confessor ... Kahlan Amnell .. you get the picture. Still, Bannor Confessors are not always female (that was just part of the Sword of Truth lore, saying that a male Confessor would be too violent and dangerous, or something), they are merely agents of Junil, more often than not male, I would presume, that have an almost 'magical' ability to extract the truth from their 'guests'. If you look at Rosier the Fallen's pedia text, it seems Confessors even have almost prescient powers ... being able to tell if someone will break a law, or an oath, long before they do so. Of course, they don't know the details involved, but they tend to know if a suspect is 'worthy' of being persecuted. Of course, with their hyperbolic focus on laws and oaths, even above truth and justice, their basis for persecution can be less than worthy to an outsider's perspective.
Church of Sabathiel makes sense as a Temple of Order UB name because the Church of the Order *was* built almost solely around Sabathiel and his "supposed" leadership. IE, soon after returning from hell, Sabathiel retired to his chamber to where he gave orders to the growing priesthood. Eventually the priesthood started making up their own orders and saying it was from Sabathiel, ignoring the Angel's actual orders (for the most part). It was around this time that Sabathiel left his trans-dimensional office/ shrine, and returned, presumably, to the Vault of Junil. Regardless of the nature of these events, I think it shows that, according to the Bannor's Priesthood of Junil, Sabathiel's word is law. Therefore the worship of the Order is closely tied with the worship of their savior Sabathiel because the Bannor have a direct theological and historical connection to him. I am sure that other nations following the order will have some place of honor reserved for Sabathiel, but only the Bannor have built an entire religion 'around' him. (ie he is the Savior of the Bannor specifically, and he was THE church leadership in the early days of the reborn empire.)
Templar, at least to me, seems like more of a 'fighting' UU. I think Acolyte is an adequate name for its role, even if it doesn't have the lore based veracity like 'Confessor' has. Templar is a much more fitting name for a Crusader UU than 'vanguard' imho. Maybe the Doviello Battlemaster could be called Vanguard of Asena (as Axeman is Sons of Asena), but I see Templar as a much better name for the Crusader UU. In wildmana, and some other modmods, Bannor would gain 'followers' upon city conquest. I think having the Templar recruit new members from conquered cities, while also converting its populace, is somewhat fitting for the holy-war theme you have going. (At first I had templar as a Champion UU, but a Crusader UU would be easier to code in this way ... not sure if you can tie Champions dynamically to whatever the current state religion is).
It is quite possible that, at least among the oldest of the Bannor, there is a sense that all other mortal races are merely 'other subjects' of the Bannor empire. Or, more succinctly, the Bannor fight for all of humanity in its fight against evil, and therefore all of humanity should look to their leadership and guidance as they steward over Erebus looking for signs of Hell's dark influences.
In other words ... they fight for the human race, therefore they are the human race, therefore all other human races have merely forgotten that they were once bannor.
In a way this makes sense because the bannor were one of the largest Patrian nations during the age of magic, but in a way this is a complete farce because the only descendants of the bannor (other than those escaped from hell) are the cruel and savage orcs.
I am not fully sure if the Bannor realize their close connection with the Orcs (that they are close, close cousins, separated only by twisted magik and many generations of short-lived savagery vs one long generation of harrowing survival)
Interesting list of changes. I'm starting to think I'm going to drop removing religions from Grand Basilica, and give Grand Temple of the Order and Grand Basilica both a +10% and extra priest slot. That being said, I have a number of rebuttals:
Like the double Basilica production speed, but Valor/Demonslaying is crazy strong. Valor is too strong of a promotion to hand out, and Demonslaying makes the Bannor dominate the Infernals (I don't like traits that make one team incredibly bias towards another).
National Ability: (defined in Spell infos XML file)*
Evangelical -> Disciple units can spread state religion with gold (as long as they have Channeling 2 ... ie priests only)
Spreading religion with gold is Esus's thing. I'd prefer having religion spread tied to the construction of a building, since no other team or religion has a mechanic like that.
Church of Sabathiel: UB for Temple of the Order. +10% , -10% maintenance, nearby Demagogs will occasionally be born with the State Religion.
We might need to get Magister's ruling on this, but I think that's super blasphemous, putting Sabathiel before Junil.
Basilica Sancta: UB for Basilica. Gives two priest specialist slots, and occasionally spawns Martyrs from Towns during Crusade. If constructed in a city during Crusade, automatically removes non-State Religions. (Crusaders will double in number under the hallowed walls of a Basilica [Basilica Sancta acts like a 'warrens' for Crusaders]-> its doable, I did it in a mod once.
I'd thought about this, but I eventually delegated it to being able to spread religion once. The problem I see is that it seems to reward players for attacking with Crusaders last. That is, weaken with other units then send Crusaders in. Crusaders should be leading the pack.
Crusaders -> during a crusade, newly built Crusaders start with City Attack 1, and March.
A bit redundant. Priors and Confessors will be able to heal stacks quickly. Giving Crusaders March gives the player less motivation to build Disciple units.
Confessors-> during a crusade, newly built Confessors start with the Inquisitor promotion, Command 1, and Command 2.
(either that, or if a Basilica Sancta is in the city)
I might do the thing where the Basilica grants Command I and II to all Disciple units, but I'm not sure what would motivate that. Command I and II are useful, but they're not game-breaking. By the time Crusade starts, you're going to want to have Confessors with Command I and II, so you can capture units for garrison and keep pushing. If it's only available after Crusade starts, then you're going to have to build a whole new set of Confessors while the rest of your army is already on the move.
I think "Confessor" should be the proper name for Bannor priests of Order, as it is one of the most lore appropriate names I know. Also, at least to me, 'Confessor' sounds like an Inquisitor that took a level in badass. Sword of Truth series anyone?
I sort of think of it the other way around. Confessor sounds like 'confess-your-sins' while Inquisitioner is 'rake-across-the-coals'. Besides, in older versions, Inquisitioner was an alternative class Confessors and other priests could upgrade to.
Ultimately, I want to make every unit and building for the Order a UU or UB for Bannor.
Church of Sabathiel makes sense as a Temple of Order UB name because the Church of the Order *was* built almost solely around Sabathiel and his "supposed" leadership.
Grand Temple of the Order and Grand Basilica aren't suppose to be significantly different from their normal counterparts, just bigger and more central to society. Until I hear word from Magister, I'm going to refrain from using Sabathiel's name in buildings.
Templar, at least to me, seems like more of a 'fighting' UU.
With the ability to spread religion, and more than likely being the first to attack, Crusaders are acting like a Vanguard. I like Templar as Acolytes because it's clear they're just as fanatic, but more combat prone. They have the ability to build Forts because typically you're left with a few Acolytes when you're done spreading Order, and there isn't much use for the remaining ones except to follow to heal or be sacrificed for Fort construction.
The Church of Junil isn't as bad. Actually, the term Church is used in The Tale of Saverous, once referring to the place where a layperson would attend services on Sunday twice (once"the" church and the other "his" church, where "his" clearly refer to Junil) referring to Junil's whole organized religion.
I don't really care for adding the word Grand to the name of a building to make a UB of it either.
If I were to give the Bannor a Basilica UB, I'd probably call it a Cathedral. When Auric Ulvin in Blood of the Angels says "We will attack into the Bannor lands, we will assault their capital and march into their largest cathedral," he sort of implies that there are other buildings in the Bannor lands known as Cathedrals too.
Sabathiel's name is canonically used in the name of the structure that is considered the focal point of the whole Bannor empire. The Bannor's pedia entry calls The Halls of Sabathiel the Bannor Palace, but it is much more than that. The essential functions of government do take place within the complex, but at its heart it is a great Cathedral run by the most important priests of Junil. Within the cathedral is a dark room (roughly cubic and six meters long in each direction) which only the High Priests are ever allowed to enter. Sabathiel himself once dwelt within this chamber, although he had abandoned it long before Auric Ulvin sacked the place.
In my modmod I gave the name Halls of Sabathiel to the Bannor Palace, but it might work well as a separate wonder unique to the Bannor. The first idea to come to mind as a Bannor replacement of the Code of Junil, whose advantages would include the <bGovernmentCenter> tag so that it functions as an extra Forbidden/Winter Palace.
It should perhaps be noted though that (at least in my More Naval AI based modmod) unique versions of world wonders don't seem to change forms when captured. The Bannor would not be able to get the advantages of such wonders if they captured their generic form from another civ, and another civ could get their advantages if they captured them from the Bannor.
As described in The Tale of Saverous, the Confessors were a new rank of priests founded and trained specifically to battle the forces of The Burnt Priest. They were trained as exorcists, diviners, and bloodletters. A confessor named Maraphene (a rather sadistic woman whose actions seem to be guided by a serpent-like demon) also displayed the supernatural ability to force Saverous to answer her questions against his will.
Spreading religion with Gold is certainly more of an Esus thing. The Bannor prefer to spread it by the sword. The old Evangelist mechanic from the early versions of FfH2 is more fitting for them. It worked by spreading the unit's religion to any city it conquered. (Actually it only worked if the last unit defending the city was killed by a unit with that promotion. Cities containing no units when captured would not be effected.) I believe that the python callback upon which this relied was considered too resource intensive, and is no longer exposed for us to be able to remove. However, it would not be too difficult to implement a similar ability through a <PythonPostCombatWon> call for specific units.
I just tested this code, and it seems to work fine provided there was some unit (even a 0 strength worker will suffice) in the city when it was captured:
Code:
def postCombatEvangelize(pCaster, pOpponent):
if not pCaster.isNoCapture():
pPlot = pOpponent.plot()
if pPlot.isCity():
pCity = pPlot.getPlotCity()
iRel = pCaster.getReligion()
if not pCity.isHasReligion(iRel):
if gc.getTeam(pCaster.getTeam()).isAtWar(pCity.getTeam()):
bEvangelize = True
if pOpponent.isImmortal():
if pCity.isCapital():
if pOpponent.getOwner() == pCity.getOwner():
bEvangelize = False
if bEvangelize:
for i in range(pPlot.getNumUnits()):
pUnit = pPlot.getUnit(i)
if not pUnit.isDelayedDeath():
if pUnit.canDefend(pPlot):
bEvangelize = False
break
if bEvangelize:
pCity.setHasReligion(iRel, True, False, False)
On a side note... having all of the Bannor specials related to the Order religion--doesn't that pretty much lock Bannor into going Order every game? Almost like the Ljosalfar go Leaves every game?
I agree that it makes sense thematically. My concern is that game mechanics that reduce player choice may detract from the game. I know if I was playing Bannor, I'd feel like I was leaving a lot of the richness of my race behind.
You can say that Sheaim and elves have strong synergies with Veil and Leaves, but neither civ has mechanics that explicitly require Veil or Leaves to work. Sheaim simply benefit from the AC, and what's the best way to raise AC? Oh, it's Veil. Elves benefit from forests, what's the best way to improve forests, oh, it's Leaves.
Bannor's core mechanic in base FFH is Crusade. I like your ideas of adding some kind of religious synergy to Crusade... but I feel it should be indirect like Veil and Leaves are, not explicitly linked to Order.
Perhaps giving Order some way to boost cottage growth, or a free promotion for a unit that starts with no xp (Demagog), or something like that.
Halls of Sabathiel ... I suppose that could be the 'extra' wonder. (+1 gold for priests and great prophets). I almost called it "St. Sabathiel's Cathedral" thinking about it from scratch, heh
What more do you know of the Burnt Priest? I just remember it was a (small?) war fought before Rosier the Oathtaker went on Campaign with Decius ... (or maybe this went on at the same time ...)
But that giant mutated goblin/drown thing ... I thought that was just a remnant of the Burnt Priest's army? Its been awhile ... heh
As in timeline
1) war with burnt priest
2) Saverous was captured/ released
3) Decius and Rosier the Oathtaker campaign together
4) Decius ordered to commit genocide against the Lanun people ... due to fear of OO becoming a danger like the Burnt Priest was.
I'm thinking ... was the Burnt Priest a follower of Bhall and Agares? I mean was he an orc/human sorceror that followed the new, more evil ways of bhall, perhaps aided by a demonlord or two?
Would be interesting to bring the Burnt Priest in as an event/ minor faction in the main mod
He was somehow associated with The Octopus Overlords. (It wouldn't surprise me if he founded said faith.) We know that he captured the great Doviello warrior called Saverous and locked him in an asylum to perform terrible experiment on him. (He conducted a wide variety of experiments on many different slaves. I suspect that he is the one who created Mary Morbus and her plague.) Eventually a war came, and he took him out of the asylum to make him a Thrall, which he used primarily to keep his own troops. He commanded a large army of both demons and mortals, most of which served him out of fear or desperation rather than loyalty or demonic possession. Saverous remained a Thrall for 17 years, which implies his master was fighting wars for at least that long. It is not clear if this was against the Bannor the whole time though, and I suspect they joined later. For a long time The Burnt Priest was unwilling to venture beyond the Osul mountains, but then a charismatic hero from the city of Prespur launched an attach against him. He retaliated, and did not allow a single inhabitant of Prespur to live. The Bannor then launched a much larger attack against him, in which both sides lost huge numbers of troops. Eventually he was slain by a legionnaire called Gilganthor
of the First Light, whose sword is said to have turned black where it touched the priest's blood. When this happened Saverous and other thralls were freed from his control, but many of them continued to cause problems as they were desperate men with no peaceful means of supporting themselves.
Edit: I just reread that passage from The Tale of Saverous. It is not worded clearly, but I think that it may actually means to say that the Burnt Priest held the city of Prespur at the time he was attacked, and that it was from his base in that city that he commanded a retaliatory attack to exterminate the town of Cuantine. It still mentions many deaths at Prespur though. Perhaps the Burnt Priest decided to turn most of the inhabitants of his city into Drowns for him to use to launch his surprise attack on Cuantine.
(When I read Ashes of Brigdarrow I thought I had figured out the Burnt Priest's origin. I suspected that he was once Brigdarrow's kindly old priest of Danalin known as Father Prespin, before Gosea burned the village and everyone in it. Hemah would have passed through the ruins soon after this, and witnessed his corpse. He would probably have also met the Nuckalevee that lived in the lake by his temple, and had a nightmare in which this burnt priest was associated with terrible monsters. Kael however denied this back story without providing any details on an alternative.)
I like your effort to reflect the idea that, as the 'pedia says (quoting from memory), "the holy war pervades all aspects of Bannor society." I do, however, share the concern akatosh expressed that you're really pushing them to adopt Order. While other civs do have synergies with particular religions (Ljosalfar-FoL, Sheaim-AV), I don't think any civ has its UUs and UBs depend on adopting a single religion.
If you want to nudge them towards adopting the Order, you could instead have the Cathedral give +1 with Social Order and, conversely, have the Basilica and Temple of the Order each give +1 with Crusade.
Also, I would suggest placing Crusade and Social Order in different Civics categories.
As for Bannor Disciple units, I'd like to propose the following for your consideration:
1) The Bannor can build all the standard T1 Disciple units (Acolyte, Thane of Kilmorph, etc.), so they can spread the various religions and build the temples for the cultural and other benefits.
2) The Bannor are blocked from building the standard T2 priest units (Confessor, Priest of Leaves, etc.).
3) Inquisitors (I think that might be a better name than Inquisitioner, incidentally) replace the standard T2 priest units, start with Divine, Channelling II, Medic I, Medic II, Inquisition, and Scourge, and start with the Bannor state religion. Like the standard T2 priest units, Inquisitors can be upgraded to Druids, Paladins, Eidolons, and the Bannor high priest replacement, Patriarchs.
4) Patriarchs have to be upgraded from a Level 6+ Inquisitor, start with Divine, Channelling II, Channelling III, Medic I, Medic II, Medic III, Inquisition, Scourge, and Recruit; all Recruited units have the Bannor state religion. Patriarchs of a given religion will abandon the Bannor if the Bannor switch to a different state religion.
I think this still captures the holy war aspect without requiring them to adopt The Order for their UUs and UBs.
In a related vein, I noticed in the first post of this thread that you wrote "Cathedrals may cause Crusaders, Paramanders, or Ratha to spawn instead of Demagogs if the appropriate religious temple is also present in the city" (I presume you mean when the Bannor cast their world spell). I would suggest instead that you allow Cathedrals a chance to cause any of the equivalent religious units (Stygian Guards, Diseased Corpses, Nightwatches, Fawns) to spawn if the appropriate religious temple is present in the city -- again, to not limit them.
Anyway, just some ideas for you to consider. *I* like them, but it's your mod, of course.
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when order is state religion, 1 when Empy is state religion.
, nearby Demagogs will occasionally be born with the State Religion.
Still, Bannor Confessors are not always female (that was just part of the Sword of Truth lore, saying that a male Confessor would be too violent and dangerous, or something), they are merely agents of Junil, more often than not male, I would presume, that have an almost 'magical' ability to extract the truth from their 'guests'. If you look at Rosier the Fallen's pedia text, it seems Confessors even have almost prescient powers ... being able to tell if someone will break a law, or an oath, long before they do so. Of course, they don't know the details involved, but they tend to know if a suspect is 'worthy' of being persecuted. Of course, with their hyperbolic focus on laws and oaths, even above truth and justice, their basis for persecution can be less than worthy to an outsider's perspective.
