I like all of your changes except this one.
Crusade is already a very powerful civic. I dont see the reason for making it even stronger.
Crusade is already a very powerful civic. I dont see the reason for making it even stronger.
[MOD] FFH TweakMod
- Thread starter Rystic
- Start date
Rystic
Turtle Wizard
Honestly, the Bannor are still on my "to do" list. I can't think of a decent tweak for them, and none of my friends are really interested in playtesting them. My problem is, when I play the Bannor, I'm not really sure I know what I want to do. Like, what's the advantage, besides Crusade, that they have? They're very vanilla.
Yesterday I was playing around with the idea of making them the anti-barbarian team, maybe giving them a unit with the Orc Slaying promotion. Really, though, I need to mull it over. I need to sit and figure out what it is I want to accomplish with the Bannor when I play as them. I'm always open for suggestions.
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Nor'easter
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I don't know how much you want to change the Bannor, but you might remember that Fall Further (and Rise from Erebus) added a whole Chain of Command system for them. Don't know how easy that would be to incorporate, since it was originally developed for FF, but could be something to consider.
Rystic
Turtle Wizard
I'm trying to avoid overwhelmingly new mechanics and I'm very conservative about adding new spells. I want something simple that should answer the question why am I playing the Bannor? I don't expect it figure it out right away, but right now I'm leaning towards expansion/anti-barbarian.
In my mind, the Bannor are the antithesis of the Clan of Embers. Lower maintenance exemplifies their Law theme, so I was thinking of a Courthouse UB that reduces maintenance by 60%, and maybe gives a priest specialist slot (in this case, the UB will be Cathedral). Likewise, the Bannor Palace will give -40% maintenance. This will make it a lot easier for the Bannor to expand, and size is what they need for a good crusade.
On the other hand, faster expansion isn't enough to answer the question why am I playing the Bannor? Like I said earlier, I think of the Bannor as the anti-barbarian team, and new mechanics should reflect that. So another idea I was tossing around was giving units a +40% vs Orc promotion thats removed after combat. Effective for dealing with barbarian bases, but not strong enough that the Bannor utterly dominate the Clan of Embers.
Finally, I was thinking of making a UU for Champion, called Templar, which was identical to Champion but caused no War Weariness on death. This idea is useless, though, since Crusade is where the Bannor are going to be during war, and War Weariness is low enough.
Before I make anything official, I like to playtest the mod. Not all ideas stick, but I have a good group of friends (there's about seven of us), and generally after some time we hammer changes out.
When I play Bannors I want to accomplish a big military empire without upkeep. A Land of Light, of soldiers and priests. Because they cannot make peace they must conquer. Their aim is to expand the Land of Light, because if they do, at the end everybody will be good, and they will be no Chaos nor Hell in Erebus.
Their civic is verry powerfull, and I worked on the idea to keep using that civic during all the game. I think the main change is to allow courthouse and basilica in Crusade, which allow them a no-upkeep economy: -80%, and you need only 4 law manas for the last 20%, that is easy with your palace and your holly city (yes, you choose the Order with them). With military state and Crusade your units don't really cost, so you can use all your cottages for your research. And priests can provide some gold.
Yes, they are the "vanilla" civ of Erebus. For exemple all palaces are special building of their palace. I think this is an interesting point of view because what is specific to them (Crusade, demagog, etc.) doesn't appear in the civilization description. I imagine they are "vanilla" because in some sense they are the good guys, the heroes of the story, if you see what I mean. So, I think you shouldn't use special units or buildings that appear in their description.
In my mod I added something else, but you don't like new spells:
- Units of level 5 or higher (no hero or illusion) can be promoted commander
- commanders can launch "discipline" (+20% power, no fear, 20% vanishing per turn) on a stack
It is a way to simply mimic the idea of bannor chain of command, and use many commander to get more units or build command post, which is good to get 8 xp (command post + theocracy + conquest + wonder) with Sabathiel to have lvl 4 units.
In the flavor, it is a way to show their discipline, their affinity with ranged battle and the fact than anyone can become a commander. A meritocracy for braves.
I like your idea to make them an anti-barbarian civ.
They are already guardsman, but they may get a bonus against hidden nationality units, wich appears barbarian. Maybe they can get a bonus when they defeat barbarians, for example a bonus of xp when they kill a barbarian unit, or reduce the Armagueddon Counter if they raze a barbarian city.
I think interesting your idea "Crusade gives +25% cottage growth rate", wich allow the cities improvement to regenerate faster after a demagog spread.
The main problem is they increase the growth of everything that grows if you use the normal mechanic (for example : fort) but it is not really a problem.
In my mod because I was tired to see their city without real production I added +1 prod to villages, cities and enclaves in the tech Guild.
About the spread, maybe these units may get xp ? I remember in Orbis the spread units get the half of the xp they should have if they were built in cities (with Sabathiel it is 4 xp, so lvl 3 units). I think this is interesting in their flavor and their mechanics.
Nor'easter
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@Rystic:
I always play a random civ with all random opponents, so I don't typically think in terms of "why am I playing civ X?"
Your idea to give their units an Orc-Slaying promotion will help with early expansion. Since they're described as having fought their way out of Hell, maybe Demon-Slaying, in addition?
The 'pedia entry for the Bannor discusses Bannor society having Families, Orders, and Hereditary Orders, and how those affect the Bannor military. Not sure how one would represent that in-game, unless you give the Bannor some more UBs (or maybe even Bannor-specific National Wonders) that have some military effect -- increased city defense, or units starting with particular promotions (e.g., shock, cover, blitz, etc.). That may be more than you want to do, though, I don't know.
There's also something in the 'pedia about people of different nations and races joining the Bannor, and there was some reference to their multinational, multiracial, multicultural empire. I know the Grigori already have the Diverse trait, and I presume you don't want to copy that for the Bannor (unless you give the Grigori something different). Could have a modified version of the Diverse trait, excluding Orcish units and allowing human units to start with promotions characteristic of other civs, such as Winterborn or Nomad. Alternatively, maybe a Bannor-specific set of events, on a separate counter from "regular" events, with various military units of various races and nationalities joining the Bannor? Again, might be more change than you want.
I don't have strong feelings about any of this, just wanted to throw out some ideas for your consideration.
EDIT: A couple of other possibilities that come to mind:
-- To reflect the social structure of Orders, Families, etc., maybe give the Bannor a UU replacement for Royal Guards, but don't restrict that to the Aristocracy civic?
-- To reflect the prowess of the Bannor military, could increase the numbers of national units they can build, from 4 to 6 or maybe even 8.
-- Also, again to reflect their military strength, could give all their leaders the Charismatic trait, or maybe even make that a civilization trait, in addition to Guardsman.
Anyway, just some ideas, as I said, I don't have strong feelings about any of this.
I always play a random civ with all random opponents, so I don't typically think in terms of "why am I playing civ X?"
Your idea to give their units an Orc-Slaying promotion will help with early expansion. Since they're described as having fought their way out of Hell, maybe Demon-Slaying, in addition?
The 'pedia entry for the Bannor discusses Bannor society having Families, Orders, and Hereditary Orders, and how those affect the Bannor military. Not sure how one would represent that in-game, unless you give the Bannor some more UBs (or maybe even Bannor-specific National Wonders) that have some military effect -- increased city defense, or units starting with particular promotions (e.g., shock, cover, blitz, etc.). That may be more than you want to do, though, I don't know.
There's also something in the 'pedia about people of different nations and races joining the Bannor, and there was some reference to their multinational, multiracial, multicultural empire. I know the Grigori already have the Diverse trait, and I presume you don't want to copy that for the Bannor (unless you give the Grigori something different). Could have a modified version of the Diverse trait, excluding Orcish units and allowing human units to start with promotions characteristic of other civs, such as Winterborn or Nomad. Alternatively, maybe a Bannor-specific set of events, on a separate counter from "regular" events, with various military units of various races and nationalities joining the Bannor? Again, might be more change than you want.
I don't have strong feelings about any of this, just wanted to throw out some ideas for your consideration.
EDIT: A couple of other possibilities that come to mind:
-- To reflect the social structure of Orders, Families, etc., maybe give the Bannor a UU replacement for Royal Guards, but don't restrict that to the Aristocracy civic?
-- To reflect the prowess of the Bannor military, could increase the numbers of national units they can build, from 4 to 6 or maybe even 8.
-- Also, again to reflect their military strength, could give all their leaders the Charismatic trait, or maybe even make that a civilization trait, in addition to Guardsman.
Anyway, just some ideas, as I said, I don't have strong feelings about any of this.
For a start .... Markets, Monuments, and Courthouses should be allowed during the Crusade.
(Basilicas are already allowed). Or at least monuments and courthouses.
Bannor having non aristocracy based Royal guards would be nice, but then again, they already have the Guardsman trait. And they'd be called "Honor Guards" or "Order Guards" or "House Guards" something like that.
I've also thought of giving them unique Commanders and Command posts ... Commanders that can fight/cast spells (as well as do their stuff), and really more so ... so that they can establish the unique version of the command post. (because, if you don't give them unique commanders ... any regular commanders that build a command post will built the old kind, not the new.)
Unique command post should probably give more Commander GPP points for one (at least double, I'd think). Other than that ... maybe a maintenance or WW reduction, but higher Commander GPP points in the big one here, I think.
(Basilicas are already allowed). Or at least monuments and courthouses.
Bannor having non aristocracy based Royal guards would be nice, but then again, they already have the Guardsman trait. And they'd be called "Honor Guards" or "Order Guards" or "House Guards" something like that.
I've also thought of giving them unique Commanders and Command posts ... Commanders that can fight/cast spells (as well as do their stuff), and really more so ... so that they can establish the unique version of the command post. (because, if you don't give them unique commanders ... any regular commanders that build a command post will built the old kind, not the new.)
Unique command post should probably give more Commander GPP points for one (at least double, I'd think). Other than that ... maybe a maintenance or WW reduction, but higher Commander GPP points in the big one here, I think.
I don't think you necessarily have to get Courthouses up to -60% and palace up to -40% .. I assume you mean that the Palace will try and have all your cities reduced by 40%??
You can easily get that extra 20% without having to replace the courthouse (although that would be fine I suppose ...)
I was thinking replacing Pagan Temple with Chapel or Shrine to Junil. (Chapel of Junil?) which gave perhaps an extra priest slot and -10% maintenance.
Then you could add -10% maintenance to their Command Post UU (along with their Commander UU).
Changing Champion into Templar would be fine ... just don't forget the demon slaying! (Templar gets demonslaying, and perhaps doesn't cause WW)
---> Also, I always thought of making the trait Guardsman also speed up settler growth (maybe by 50% instead of 100% like expansive does), not necessary, but flavorful I think. Maybe workers too, but would speeding up workers be too strong?
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Also, a bannor "racial" would be nice. Probably work like nomad- applicable to anyone (ie not a race).
Such a racial I was thinking could be called 'zealot' ... which gives +1 exp from combat and +20% vs Orcs
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I *would* suggest +1 commander GPP to their capital, but I think that would make bannor too focused/ too weak, as they would have difficulty getting that first priest/ first sage/ first merchant. I would want the bannor to be able to focus all on priests if it was so inclined.
Also, I am thinking allowing a National Wonder at either Priesthood or Religious Laws called "Cathedral of Junil" or something. Basically it would work as a palace as far as reducing regional maintenance (if need be) but, more importantly, it would give all priests +1 GOLD. Definitely a possibility of turning tithes into military spending. (ie priest economy for large armies)
You can easily get that extra 20% without having to replace the courthouse (although that would be fine I suppose ...)
I was thinking replacing Pagan Temple with Chapel or Shrine to Junil. (Chapel of Junil?) which gave perhaps an extra priest slot and -10% maintenance.
Then you could add -10% maintenance to their Command Post UU (along with their Commander UU).
Changing Champion into Templar would be fine ... just don't forget the demon slaying! (Templar gets demonslaying, and perhaps doesn't cause WW)
---> Also, I always thought of making the trait Guardsman also speed up settler growth (maybe by 50% instead of 100% like expansive does), not necessary, but flavorful I think. Maybe workers too, but would speeding up workers be too strong?
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Also, a bannor "racial" would be nice. Probably work like nomad- applicable to anyone (ie not a race).
Such a racial I was thinking could be called 'zealot' ... which gives +1 exp from combat and +20% vs Orcs
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I *would* suggest +1 commander GPP to their capital, but I think that would make bannor too focused/ too weak, as they would have difficulty getting that first priest/ first sage/ first merchant. I would want the bannor to be able to focus all on priests if it was so inclined.
Also, I am thinking allowing a National Wonder at either Priesthood or Religious Laws called "Cathedral of Junil" or something. Basically it would work as a palace as far as reducing regional maintenance (if need be) but, more importantly, it would give all priests +1 GOLD. Definitely a possibility of turning tithes into military spending. (ie priest economy for large armies)
Nor'easter
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Getting a repeatable CtD at the end of this turn, just hit "Enter."
Sounds like the perfect reason to have their royal guard uu do something cooler.
I don't think the Bannor should be too anti-orc. It's a slap in the face to the Clan of Embers, and "We spent god knows how long trapped in hell fighting for our lives" is different "We don't like orcs". Demon-slaying: Definitely. Orc-slaying? Not so much.
well, they don't like orcs...
orcs are fallen bannor... and represent the heretics of heretics : the bannor that fell !
and you hate your darker side
but I like some of those ideas.
maybe the royal guards could still be limited to 4, but have a more balanced strenght and be the one to get the +1xp/combat from start ?
maybe other bannor get this promotion automatically at level 6 or 4? (so it is not a free-gain, but to help booster their elite ?)
orcs are fallen bannor... and represent the heretics of heretics : the bannor that fell !
and you hate your darker side
but I like some of those ideas.
maybe the royal guards could still be limited to 4, but have a more balanced strenght and be the one to get the +1xp/combat from start ?
maybe other bannor get this promotion automatically at level 6 or 4? (so it is not a free-gain, but to help booster their elite ?)
True, but there a few people I very much hate, and that doesn't seem to have improved my ability to kill them. The two elven civilizations don't like each other very much, but they don't get any extra ability to kill one-another from it.
Rystic
Turtle Wizard
Is this with the current version? Because the last update had it compatible with Patch M, which might be the problem. I'll see if I can look into this more when I get home.
Rystic
Turtle Wizard
The Bannor are a bit different from the elves. They have sort of a righteous anger about them. Such a promotion would reflect higher morale or familiarity with killing Orcs. However, a straight up combat vs Orcs is out of the question, because it makes the Bannor dominate the Clan of Embers.
No changes have been solidified yet for the Bannor. I figure my Cathedral change reduces maintenance a bit too much; I'll probably roll it back to -40% mat and have it give a priest specialist slot, and even then it might get dropped if I can't work out a practical use for it. I'm still meditating on what the Bannor need to feel unique (besides Crusade).
Rystic
Turtle Wizard
Maybe that was a poor way to say it. What I really mean is, when I play a team, what am I looking to do with them? When I play the Illians, I enjoy using Temples of the Hand to create my own winter space. When I play the Amurites, I like to be the Arcane-authority of the world. When I play the Balserpahs, I like to adopt slavery, and have an entire slave-based worker population.
The Tweakmod's purpose, in my opinion, was to address civilizations where 'team goals' were lacking. I think every team should have a fun goal that separates them from the pack. The Tweakmod all began when I was playing the Doviello on a cold Erebus map, thinking 'I really want to do a game in the tundra with these guys, but with how slow they tech there's just no way'. The Doviello had a goal, but there was no way to reach it. That motivated my first change, which was to give them the ability to turn tundra resources into food resources. After that change, the Doviello were able to survive Erebus maps, and became fun on cold maps. Their cities were legitimate city states -- disjointed, and dotted around food resources.
Over time, I started overloading on features, like bringing back the guilds, which eventually caused me to stop because I felt I'd gone too far. My recent Tweakmod (not posted yet) is from scratch, taking only changes I thought were very important from the old one. Now, I'm back to focusing on 'team goals'. Clan of Embers has been upgraded with the ability to start fires (which they can move/build improvements in), Amurite Adepts start with Body I/Fire I/Metamagic I so their first promotions can be combat or spell extension promotions, Balseraphs Warriors and Swordsmen have a +10% slave capture rate, etc.
This is where my question came in. Crusade is a fun mechanic, and it is very strong, but as a goal it happens very suddenly. There's not much build up besides researching a tech, going to war, and switching to it. As soon as war's over, it's gone, so what I'm doing is brainstorming the Bannor and thinking what could make playing them feel more rewarding.
Rystic
Turtle Wizard
Let me take a look at it and see what I can do.
Nor'easter
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It should be the current version, since I downloaded and installed the mod only recently, unless I missed an update from within the last week or so.
If you are fixated in making the courthouse the UB, then making courthouses/cathedrals -50% or -55% or -60% maintenance is O.K. so long as you don't have that global -40% maintenance from the palace.
As far as their 'racial' promotion, Magister's Mod has Bannor just have Valor as their 'race' ... (hence the extra +1 exp). Of course, a downside is that it makes their law 3 spell useless, but I think Magister, iirc, also allowed Bannor specific Law Archmages to cast Unyielding Order (similar to Order priors).
Hmm, in this mod was pillar of fire re-added to Priors in general? b/c both UO and PoF make sense thematically and lore wise as far as Order Priors go. And UO makes a lotta sense as a bannor archmage too (even though they don't have many archmages, I figure any that did exist would be almost priest like in nature)
As far as their 'racial' promotion, Magister's Mod has Bannor just have Valor as their 'race' ... (hence the extra +1 exp). Of course, a downside is that it makes their law 3 spell useless, but I think Magister, iirc, also allowed Bannor specific Law Archmages to cast Unyielding Order (similar to Order priors).
Hmm, in this mod was pillar of fire re-added to Priors in general? b/c both UO and PoF make sense thematically and lore wise as far as Order Priors go. And UO makes a lotta sense as a bannor archmage too (even though they don't have many archmages, I figure any that did exist would be almost priest like in nature)
