FfH2 0.32 Balance Feedback

[Fafnir13]

And if Hyborem's settler would spawn one turn later, you could actually switch to him AND choose your preferred city location instead of the abysmal ones Hyborem usually has.

I would like to second this. Very annoying are the stupid places he chooses to build before I gain control.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Not a bad idea.

It would probably be better though to simply add newUnit11.finishMoves() in python rightafter the settler is created. That would eliminate the need for extra python calls, and make him unable to settle (or move the settler) until after a human could have taken over. I would also suggest giving Hyborem's (and Basium's) starting settlers the Starting Settler promotion instead of Mobility and Sentry 1 & 2.

I'll make both of those changes in my version.

Edit: I just tested, and this doesn't work. I think that Hyborem spawns at the end of the turn and you take over after the beggining of the next, so the settler could move by then. I'll see if setting the settler a immobile for 2 turns works.

 

[Grey Fox]

Why care too much about his terrain? All he needs from the terrain is production anyways. Any location is good enough for Hyborem, all he needs is to settle some manes and he get specialists that don't eat any food or require any happiness.

If you wanna relocate as Hyborem, take your massive semi-immortal Hero and take over your neighbour.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The AI often places his city in very low production areas, often also 1 tile away from having acces to the sea. Even demons need a navy.

I usualy prefer to not settle at all until I can capture the AV holy city for my capital. Needing to build your capital can be a real hassle.

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

The AI often places his city in very low production areas, often also 1 tile away from having acces to the sea. Even demons need a navy.

I usualy prefer to not settle at all until I can capture the AV holy city for my capital. Needing to build your capital can be a real hassle.

The first could be a part of the 3-ring dictation problems, fixxed in .33, and as for the second...well, it sounds about right for the most corrupt demon in existance to do.

 

[westamastaflash]

The first could be a part of the 3-ring dictation problems, fixxed in .33, and as for the second...well, it sounds about right for the most corrupt demon in existance to do.

That's what his fun spell is for, setting up your capital city in the AV holy city. :-D

 

[Grey Fox]

This isn't really a balance problem, more an annoyance in gameplay of mine. (Maybe we should have a general gameplay thread or something)

When I have a hero in a stack it almost never defends, this is a wanted result a lot of the time, but not all the time. For example when my intention is to use the hero as the stack defender this won't work.

How about making Heroic Defense increase the chance to defend? Like Guardsman, only not as much.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You could use your spell to steal the holy city, but that would require first settling so you can adopt the AV religion and researching Maevolevent Designs. More importantly, gaining cities through that Spell (or through diplomacy) does not grant the Demonic Citizens building (or the other free buildings), whereas conquest now does. I do not want the people in my capital whinning. Plus, Palaces just take too long to build.


Setting the Settler to be immobile for 2 turns after it is created works quite nicely, although it does mean you will have to wait 1 more turn before you settle. If you only immobilize it for 1 turn then it can already move and settle as soon as the Infernal turn begins, so Hyborem will inevitably have already settled somewhere dumb.


Having Heroic Defense I & II increase the chance to defend sounds like a good idea. I'm thinking Heroic Strength I & II should make the unit even less likely to defend, while Heroic Defense I & II just barely ofset the Hero and Heroic Strength's defence chance modifiers.

 

[abculatter2]

Pirate coves, harbors etc. are pillageable, so if you pillage them then you can make another next to where it used to be, making island cities possible.

 

[Darksaber1]

Pirate coves, harbors etc. are pillageable, so if you pillage them then you can make another next to where it used to be, making island cities possible.

This is known, and is aperrantly listed as a Lanun feature.

 

[MondSemmel]

It's a problem that enemies can pillage them though and they are completely unreclaimable (which is even worse than losing towns) - why not allow workers to build pirate coves on water (i.e. on transports?) or allow something like work boats (or special, expensive Lanun only boats) to sacrifice themselves for pirate coves? Sounds too strong though - but some kind of solution to this problem would be good.

 

[abculatter2]

This is known, and is aperrantly listed as a Lanun feature.

This doesn't seem right. if your lucky and do it right, you can have a city completely surrounded by a fresh water lake and, combined with OO, your pretty much invincible.

 

[Darksaber1]

Don't ask me, ask the Team.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Personally, I'm leaning towards removing the spell and making Lanun workboats be able to build coves on coastal tiles. Other changes I'm making wil make Lanun/OO pretty formidable, so they can aford to lose this ability.





One thing that really annoys me is that if you buy a tech in advanced start you never get the free unit it would provide, or trigger events like the one that founds the Guild of the Nine. I usually play with adanced starts, and know from experiance that this can be a big deal. Normally you can adopt any religion (assuming you aren'tone of the agnostic leaders) by researching the tech, even if you can't found it. With advanced starts, buying the tech early is a complete waste of gold which forces you to wait for the religion's natural spread. I guess the free unit to the first to reach/buy the tech could be overpowered (since one player is given the option before the other civs start the game), but the units that go to anyone when they get the tech shiould really still be granted. Can this please be changed in 0.33?


I also think that Palaces need to be made purchasible in advanced starts, and cheap. The best Capital City site is not often visible when you first start the game, but you can't purchase visibility unitl a city is placed. Being able to change the capital would be a big improvement, assuming that you can't just make it so that you don't need a city to buy visibility or techs.


Advanced Starts also really need to let you know what leader you are. Traits can play a huge part in deciding what should be bought, but can currently only be surmised by buying units that get free promotions from those traits.

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

I for one think a good counter to the Lanun sea citadel would be if Earth Elementals could sacrifice themselves to create land, which I believe is possible, and would be a bit of fun terraforming.

 

[abculatter2]

I for one think a good counter to the Lanun sea citadel would be if Earth Elementals could sacrifice themselves to create land, which I believe is possible, and would be a bit of fun terraforming.

yes, but how would the elementals get in the water? You'd have to either take a transport, transport the mage, and have the mage cast in the transport(impossible in isolated, fresh water lakes, which you can easily make if you do it right and are lucky). Make earth elementals be able to walk on water, which would be WAY over-powered. Or make the spell turn all adjacent tiles land, which is a bit too much if you ask me.

 

[xienwolf]

And it isn't like sacraficing an Earth Elemental really costs you anything anyway

 

[Blackmantle]

This doesn't seem right. if your lucky and do it right, you can have a city completely surrounded by a fresh water lake and, combined with OO, your pretty much invincible.

And its unthinkable that the ability to cove is fine with many players? Even if you can make lots of freshwater (completely surrounding it in freshwater is impsossible since if you make the lake to big it turns ocean. You'll usually have 3 different lakes divided by land-bridges in a former non-costal city with one acess to ocean.)
+ Lanun are supposed to be strong near water and OO is their strongest religious synergy so it ought to be the best combination possible for them (like Elves and FoL with lots of forests around or Dwarves with RoK and alot of hills around are.).


Add to that only 4 Ports at max per cities (one usually ocean with connection to a large body of Water for many reasons beeing better than all freshwater) / 2 or 3 beeing standart and easy destructability + compare the whole thing to elves (yes they are powerful as well but still balanced as outlined by the teams take on balance.) with forest-cottages or forest farms and one can't speak of this beeing the best or earliest economic option in the game (in fact several civs have better economic options than 4food + 2 or 3 commerce including any civ via farms with agriculture + aristocracy + sanitation. Especially Financial leaders which yield 4 Food / 4 commerce next to a river and 4 Food / 3 Commerce without a river . With ports beeing comparable to resources but destroyable unlike those) + consider the extreme cost in used workers to accomplish cities with lots of freshwater and its not anymore all that hot. Tactically its still very nice but requires heavy investment of workers to use tactically on large scale.

What is so hard abbout accepting things that are powerful as they are without changing them because you! don't like them?


The same complaints about terraforming come up again and again. FFH2 is all the more fun with terraforming imo (including coves). And im not the only one to think so.
If you hate terraforming so much, either chose another mod or modmod it out (or have someone modmod it out for you. ). Both very solid options to accomplish what you want.
Its not like you are forced to play unmodded ffh2.
(And if multiplayer is the main reason for your complaint: Its not the main focus of FFH2 Design. Not completely unimportant though.)

If you complain because AI can't really cope with that strategy up until now wait until the AI is updated and gets a grip on the naval part of the game. Rest assured the team will get that done. (It was done in vanilla Civ as well so this one is doable for sure.)

 

[Ecofarm]

yes, but how would the elementals get in the water?

1) Boat.
2) Water-walking (water2) earth3 arcane.
3) ?
4) Profit

 

[Darksaber1]

Well, looked over the change log, the coments about Lanun Coves don't matter, because coves are built by work boats and don't terraform Tiles.
From the Change log:
49. Pirate Coves are built by Lanun workboats instead of workers (and don't terraform the tile).