FfH2 0.34 Balance Thread

[Keeper_GFA]

I cannot think of another unit that loses something when it upgrades.

Archer line units promoted to Arquebus lose their weapon promotions.

Actually, hunters to Ghosts are very much a change of effects.

Very true, there's really two different lines of units under the recon line. From the description, it would make more sense for the Assassin line to keep the Divided Soul ability than the Ranger line.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

sidegrading for Doviello sounds nice, and I agree with MC that it would be great to make sever soul an ability unique to the sidar recon line ( or just an ability that stays if you upgrade a divided soul to a higher tier unit ). or at the very least keep the buildable even after rangers come.

btw, Calabim are kinda unstoppable once they get to feudalism. probably due to vampires being really strong and really easy to get. I think they shouldn't be buildable, it would make things more interesting cuz you'd have to get your morois bloody to get them to upgrade

 

[odalrick]

I cannot think of another unit that loses something when it upgrades.

Mimic, Warrior, Scout...

 

[Blackmantle]

Divided Soul is already a very powerful unit (fastest Tier 2 recon in the game. Rivals Mounted line with no problems, partly ignoring slower movement on difficult terrain and without any of the typical drawbacks.)

Because this is the balancing-thread i can only disrecommend such a move even if it would indeed be very flavorful / fitting. (extending it to rangers might not be all that problematic but extending it to ghosts would be imo. Also stealth / invisibility of shadows can be seen as a direct advancement of that ability already. Sorts of...)

But i do agree that those hunter-replacements should be buildable if you can already build ghosts + rangers. That would be neat enough allready. (And i would find plenty of reasons to still do being a regular sidar player myself.) Also shouldn't be that hard to code (i believe at least that it would be possible without changing hunters.).

Scouts with this ability would be completely nuts (which would happen if extended to all recon-units by a trait + promotion.). Never lose a scout to bad defensive luck again... + mountain-ridges would be no barrier to your scouting anymore (which might be a problem on erebus-mapscript.) + might extend to the mounted line if done via trait as well if upgraded from a scout.

All in all the divided soul is a great unit / ability to a very unusual and rather powerful civ already. No more over the top improvement needed. (Scouts / Fauns / Satyrs / Rangers are powerful enough as is, everything else is very special for the Sidar already. Which includes Marksmen upgraded from Ghosts. If Marksmen just wouldn't be so bad relatively by themselves...)

 

[orgonebox]

It just occurred to me that since the Illians don't have much use for Great Prophets (other than building a shrine or settling in a city), Illians should be able to upgrade Great Prophets into Priests of the Hand.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

What I'd give Auric Ascended is some first strikes. Makes mobbing him with weak units all but impossible, the FSs would destroy them before they could get a chance to land a hit. Which makes sense - how does a massive avatar with ranged beam attacks and a huge line of sight allow run of the mill, green troops anywhere near him?

He could still be beat without the godslayer. But you'd need to put your highly promoted units or heroes on the line, and likely lose some.

 

[WCH]

It just occurred to me that since the Illians don't have much use for Great Prophets (other than building a shrine or settling in a city), Illians should be able to upgrade Great Prophets into Priests of the Hand.

YES

Great idea.

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

What I'd give Auric Ascended is some first strikes. Makes mobbing him with weak units all but impossible, the FSs would destroy them before they could get a chance to land a hit. Which makes sense - how does a massive avatar with ranged beam attacks and a huge line of sight allow run of the mill, green troops anywhere near him?

He could still be beat without the godslayer. But you'd need to put your highly promoted units or heroes on the line, and likely lose some.

As it ought to be. It's a very cool scenario, lore-wise.

 

[odalrick]

What I'd give Auric Ascended is some first strikes.

He could still be beat without the godslayer. But you'd need to put your highly promoted units or heroes on the line, and likely lose some.

Or a single adept with Shadow I and a mob of warriors.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

It just occurred to me that since the Illians don't have much use for Great Prophets (other than building a shrine or settling in a city), Illians should be able to upgrade Great Prophets into Priests of the Hand.

Or maybe GP's could rush rituals.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Giving AA some first strikes is still a good idea. First strikes cancel each other out, so if AA has some then he won't be as vulnerable to them.

The biggest problem with AA right now is that half of his strength is Cold, to which (IIRC) the Dragons have immunity. Even a high level Dragon would be the underdog against a strength 60 unit. But against a 30, even a few levels would give a Dragon the advantage.

 

[Zobo]

I support auric having first strikes, also immune to first strikes if possible.

I do not like Magister's idea of him healing to 100% after combat, the game loses too much versatility if auric is only killable in essentially one way - godslayer.

He should be able to be overcome by a large army, just not as easily as he is now.

 

[Sarisin]

It just occurred to me that since the Illians don't have much use for Great Prophets (other than building a shrine or settling in a city), Illians should be able to upgrade Great Prophets into Priests of the Hand.

I like this idea. As you mentioned, it is possible to get the holy buildings with them though. I was fortunate to found two religions with units from lairs and then found CoE and Empyrean so I was able to get the holy buildings in my cities with Great Prophets.

However, I am still churning out Great Prophets and it would be nice to have a different use for them such as you or N-K mentioned.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed about Auric getting first strikes for the exact same reasons already mentioned.

Godslayer should be the EASY way to kill him, not the ONLY one

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Zobo: Even then Auric whould be far from only killable via the godslayer. Power 30 should be enough to have a reasonable (if bad) chance to do so. Which should be no problem to reach with Tier 4 + some Promotions.

A good number of First-Strikes might help but that doesn't address some other issues.

 

[rusty217]

I think Auric should have 40 strength +30 ice mana affinity, blitz, 3 first strikes and heals 20 % after combat...

As it is now he just isn't the super unit he should be, the godslayer is far to easy to get so means attacking one civ with him would be suicide, and most late game heroes can have a good chance of beating him after a few levels.

The Avatar of Wrath and meshabber of dis are stronger than him after only 5-6 levels, which with that much strength is easy to get, while Auric will never get stronger due to no promotions, so he should start much stronger than he currently is...

 

[Zechnophobe]

30 Ice mana Affinity? So he's at least 70, and possibly 100? I guess that just seems rather bombastic.

I think march or 'heal after combat' would work fine, but I've never gotten him so I dont' really know ;P.

 

[Verdian]

Mimic, Warrior, Scout...

Hmm, I forgot about Mimics, and I do not think I have ever built an Aquebusier. I should have been more specific, when I said "loses something", I had meant a magic ability or promotion (not defensive and attack bonuses). In my mind, a Divided Soul losing sever soul is like a Cultist losing tsunami when it upgrades to Speaker to get summon Kraken (or something similar).

If the recon line having sever soul is considered too powerful, as Blackmantle suggests, then I really would like to see DSs not be replaced by Rangers. But I am not completely convinced that a Ghost or Shadow with sever soul would be game breaking, or even overpowered. I think the benefits it provides to playability of the Sidar are worth it.

In my last game as the Sidar, I was amazed at how well the surival mechanic of the DS worked to help me get Wanes. In the past, the best way to get Wanes was to build a lot of Adepts and wait, or build the Altar of Luonnotar and make a lot of priests. For me, waiting on Adepts is really boring (and I prefer non-combat wins normally o_O ), and making the Altar seems out of character for the Sidar (what do they care about a one true God, and I usually go CoE anyway). Giving the recon line (or any units) a helping hand in escaping from combat with valuable experience points was a fun, active way of making wanes. I think expanding this ability beyond early to mid-game would keep the Sidar play style interesting for the player. For units that can be invisible or gain HN, the sever soul ability helps them get back to their city faster so you can build a new unit and start the process over again.

The fact that DSs can hop over mountain chains, while great, only really applies to one map type. I do not think that should be a make or break point.

In short, letting DSs upgrade and keep their sever soul ability makes getting wanes a more active experience for the player, less frustrating, and makes non-adept/priest strategies more viable.

 

[Verdian]

Or maybe GP's could rush rituals.

I like that idea, as it helps all civs, not just the Illians. I can see that being really helpful for the Sheiam and Elohim in their Armageddon wars.

 

[Blakmane]

Would it be possible to implement a check, so that only a single type of missionary can spawn per game from dungeons? With a good dungeon romp early on you can easily found one or two religions before anyone else even has the chance, which is not fun nor fair.