FfH2 0.34 Balance Thread

[·Imhotep·]

Just wondering what you guys think of this.

Civilization: Balseraphs
Leader: Keelyn
Unit: Hemah

With twin cast he can do the following.
Summon two puppets, who also possess twin cast, these puppets summon two fire elementals each. Next turn he summons two more puppets and the two previous summon two fire elementals each as do the new ones.


Turn 1: 2 puppets (3 turns left), 4 fire elementals (3 turns left)
Turn 2: 2/2 puppets (2/3 turns left), 12 fire elementals (4-two turns left, 8-three turns left)
Turn 3: 2/2/2 puppets (1/2/3 turns left), 24 elementals (4- one turn left, 8- two turns left, 12- three turns left)
Turn 4: 2/2/2 puppets (1/2/3 turns left), 32 elementals (8- one turn left, 12- turns left, 12- three turns left)
Turn 5 and onwards: 2/2/2 puppers (1/2/3 turns left), 36 elementals (12 disappearing every turn but are resummoned next turn.)

Thus with one unit - Hemah, you can have 36 fire elementals causing havoc and destruction everywhere.

What do you guys think, I believe its rather overpowered as Hemah isn't too hard to get.

Well, Earth Elementals are even better as they can enter every terrain. I tried this today when playing Keelyn. I was the #1 civ anyway, but yes - using Hemah in this way is totally overpowered. I was in the middle of finishing the Kuriotates when Auric declared on me (okay, the -18 from razing cities with Loki might have had something to do with this ). He captured a city immediately. I would have won the war anyway, as Saverous and my mages would have picked the enemy units apart. But it would have needed time. Hemah got Earth III just in the right time. Summoning fun here we come! 7 turns later Auric was down to a petty single city - I could have easily removed him, but living on is always the greater punishment .

The big problem with this is that the puppets get all of Hemah's promotions - and thus the Twincast. Also the AI can't see it's danger as the potential army is hidden from the power graph (but boy does it shoot up once you start summoning). If this stays as it is getting Hemah with Keelyn is a won game every time. But how to solve this? Maybe it would help to implement a maximum threshold of units the player can summon through puppets. Like 10 or so at the same time.

Although I do not deny that it is great fun to go wrecking like this...

 

[Demus]

how about limiting the puppets to 1 per caster? Still a worthwile summon, but doesn't create the huge stacks of summoned units

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I believe there is an SDK block that prevents a unit from summoning a unit of the same type. Thus, puppets would be unable to summon more puppets and this exploit is prevented.

 

[Sarisin]

Buboes enters my borders. I damage him with 4-5 units with Courage. I kill him at 77% Combat Odds with a Ranger with 100 XP.

Big XP, right? No. Nothing because he had 100 XP and Buboes is a barb unit.

OK, I get the new rule of no XP for units with the Raiders trait over 100 when you kill barbs, but this was a Barbarian Hero.

Shouldn't we get some XP from killing a very strong barb unit - even if you are at 100 XP?

 

[·Imhotep·]

@Magister:

The Puppets are not summoning Puppets. The Puppets summon Elementals. The Puppets get summoned by Hemah...

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I agree that the summoning system needs some changes. If each summoning unit could only have one summoned unit at a time, then I think it would all fall into place. You could even give all normal summons (not fireballs/meteors which feel like spells more than summons) the 3 turn duration currently given to Summoner trait civs. Summoner trait civs could have all permanent summons.

This would reduce micromanagement, exploitation, and return some usefulness to other spells ... since you're no longer casting a summon spell every turn, you may as well cast something else.

 

[BugReportage]

@Magister
I just used loki to summon 3 puppets which in turn summoned 9 Spectres... Using the world editor... So if anyone else can learn create puppet they can do it too.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Ok, so I didn't read the post very carefully.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Buboes enters my borders. I damage him with 4-5 units with Courage. I kill him at 77% Combat Odds with a Ranger with 100 XP.

Big XP, right? No. Nothing because he had 100 XP and Buboes is a barb unit.

OK, I get the new rule of no XP for units with the Raiders trait over 100 when you kill barbs, but this was a Barbarian Hero.

Shouldn't we get some XP from killing a very strong barb unit - even if you are at 100 XP?

I do agree with this. I mean, the raider trait would have given you exactly 1 xp, big freaking deal. But a Huge barbarian hero of doom should still give *some* kind of XP when you kill it, and not JUST drop an item.

Maybe if we change the Hero trait to trigger xp generation in the killer, independant of the owner of that hero (Or if not the hero trait, since I don't know if Buboes has that, some other trait?)

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I think the XP cap should be removed completely. You have a chance to lose any combat, so you should always get an appropriate reward. We've all lost incredible odds battles before, and that sucks. But to win a battle for nothing isn't a lot better.

 

[rezaf]

Apropos barbarian heroes, what are you guys experiences with the new Orthus?
As I understood it, he will now actively seek out enemies instead of sticking to the wilds for a long time.
Fair and well, but in all test games I ran with 0.34 so far, he'd always go down in a matter of a few turns. Only one time, on a Large Perfect World map (these really are LARGE) he beelined to my cities, actually, for which he had to cross half the map, so he stayed alive that time.
But when he got there he had lost one and a half points of his strength and lost a fight against some guarding warrior. Not exactly awe-inspiring.
In another game I ran yesterday, he was around for less than ten turns.

My first experiences with FFH way back were basically centered around Orthus.
I had no idea such a strong unit (and he sure felt a LOT stronger back then) could spawn that early, and had the misfortune of having him spawn very close to my borders ... and I just couldn't stop him.

0.34 Orthus feels more like a friendly visitor who brings his axe as a present, which I consider kinda wrong.

So, again, how does anyone else experience him in 0.34?
_____
rezaf

 

[MaxAstro]

Apropos barbarian heroes, what are you guys experiences with the new Orthus?
As I understood it, he will now actively seek out enemies instead of sticking to the wilds for a long time.
Fair and well, but in all test games I ran with 0.34 so far, he'd always go down in a matter of a few turns. Only one time, on a Large Perfect World map (these really are LARGE) he beelined to my cities, actually, for which he had to cross half the map, so he stayed alive that time.
But when he got there he had lost one and a half points of his strength and lost a fight against some guarding warrior. Not exactly awe-inspiring.
In another game I ran yesterday, he was around for less than ten turns.

My first experiences with FFH way back were basically centered around Orthus.
I had no idea such a strong unit (and he sure felt a LOT stronger back then) could spawn that early, and had the misfortune of having him spawn very close to my borders ... and I just couldn't stop him.

0.34 Orthus feels more like a friendly visitor who brings his axe as a present, which I consider kinda wrong.

So, again, how does anyone else experience him in 0.34?
_____
rezaf

I agree with you.

That's why I'm gonna give him March and Crazed. And possibly have him spawn with 10-20 XP. Hopefully the AI will be able to survive. I'm not sure I will. XD

 

[WCH]

So I (finally) got Auric. My thinking is that he isn't quite awesome enough, considering how easily he can be killed via Godslayer, and how difficult he is to obtain.

My suggestion is to grant Blitz and some form of fast healing to Avatars. Currently he doesn't even heal at all in enemy territory, and combined with his lack of Blitz, that severely limits his ability to steamroll; Drifa seems to be doing a lot more actual damage, and didn't cost me two rituals, half my population in every city, a bunch of damage to all units, and permanent war with everybody.

Also, I said elsewhere but just wanted to repeat it: the Godslayer should definitely be harder to get. My idea for it is that it spawns in Letum Frigus the next time a non-Illian, non-Barbarian unit enters the plot after Auric spawns. This makes it a tactical issue... the Illians will want to capture and hold Letum Frigus before creating Auric, and it means that non-Illians have a specific objective to push for. This sets up beautifully for the kind of epic battle that I absolutely adore in this game... a single square over which large armies battle. Not only would that make getting the Godslayer a lot more exciting, and add a cool tactical element to the lategame, it'd also help make Auric a little stronger by making his undoing not quite so easy to grab.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I made it so that Avatar grants Blitz and 100% healing from killing other units. I also increased Auric Ascended's strength.


I also make Dragon give Blitz and Flying, increase their strength, and I plan to change their breath fire spell to letting them attack like Nukes.


The fact that Letum Frigus doesn't appear on every map is a big problem for making the Godslayer spawn there.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed with all issues posted lately... Auric being easily killed, puppet summoning exploit, 100 XP cap and Orthus being just a nice axe in 0.34 ( maybe Orthus should get the "old" 0.33 AI back? )

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Having the Godslayer spawn at a known plot is that if the Illians sit Auric on top of it, then there is no longer any point to having the Godslayer in the game. You'd have to kill AA to get the Godslayer to kill AA with it.

I think that the Godslayer would be an ideal use of the vanilla quest system. When AA is spawned, spawn the Godslayer somewhere random (maybe forced away from AA himself) and give all the opposing civs the quest (and location) to get it.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Having the Godslayer spawn at a known plot is that if the Illians sit Auric on top of it, then there is no longer any point to having the Godslayer in the game. You'd have to kill AA to get the Godslayer to kill AA with it.

I think that the Godslayer would be an ideal use of the vanilla quest system. When AA is spawned, spawn the Godslayer somewhere random (maybe forced away from AA himself) and give all the opposing civs the quest (and location) to get it.

you should post this here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=295544

 

[Immaculate]

About puppets.
In .33 (don't know about .34- havn't played much CIV lately), you could use Hemah with death III to summon a puppet, move it into position, turn it into a lich, have that puppet-lich summon a puppet, turn it into a lich, have that puppet-lich summon a puppet, etc.... Then all the lich attack. Thats a pretty powerful force to unleah in one turn.
Also next turn you can summon many many puppets and use those to summon wraiths or more liches.
I have never gotten twincast with hemmah though so i can't comment on that.

 

[Brokenbone]

Non-complaint, non-suggestion, just stopping a moment to say I like the new naval combat strengths for all the various ships.

Additionally, maybe I was just unlucky in prior versions, but I'm seeing fairly serious naval assaults by the AI now, from time to time. It used to be that I would always see hordes of privateers, but never any transport ships disgorging terrifying armies. Now I've seen the occasional barb ship come out of nowhere and drop off a couple of units, or AI adversaries drop off pretty serious armies (example: Calabim dropping off phalanx, beasts of agares, assorted diseased corpses and a couple of savants on the shore of one of my lightly defended cities... woops!)

Anyhow, yeah, the navies seem to have greater "steps" in terms of technology and strength now, and I'm pretty happy seeing the AI occasionally threaten with them, even seen evidence of intercontinental invasions by the AI of other AI civs (or scattered barbarian pockets). Basically "something good is happening with naval power" in this version, good stuff!

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Puppets can turn into Liches? That'd be a bug if it is still in.