-
Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
FIBA World Championship
- Thread starter jonatas
- Start date
BlizzardGR
Prince
Sisonpyh said:
Greece isn't any less talented than the US. Basketball is a team sport and it's meant to be played this way. US players tend to play a more NBA-styled basketball where there is hardly any teamwork. IMO NBA is all glamour, show and over-payed (though talented for sure) players.
Do you think that NBA players are no match for Greek players (or any other team's players that play similarly for that matter) on 1 on 1 situations? I don't think so.
EDIT: Spain beats Argentina 75 - 74
Thorgalaeg
Deity
Dont come now with lesser talented stories, please. Greece dominated the match in all aspects. 1-1 included. Period.
Lets see what occurs in the final.
Lets see what occurs in the final.
jonatas
tropicalista
BlizzardGR said:
Well there is no doubt in my mind that NBA rules are far superior to International rules, and the NBA is a better game (notwithstanding the debate about talent). Watching this tournament has confirmed that to me. I'm talking about rules and styles of play.
The best international players thrive in the NBA, but it's not an automatic cross-over for every international player. The NBA is a very high level of competition and a very good game in its own right. Still I'm quite amazed that such a talented US team was defeated. Back to the drawing board I guess
BlizzardGR
Prince
Unfortunately we lost. 
Or should I say we were crushed? It was the worst game our team has played..... ever. We played sooooo bad, I couldn't beleive my eyes! We certainly didn't deserve winning playing like that.
Congratulations to Spain for their well deserved victory.
Or should I say we were crushed? It was the worst game our team has played..... ever. We played sooooo bad, I couldn't beleive my eyes! We certainly didn't deserve winning playing like that.
Congratulations to Spain for their well deserved victory.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
It was unexpectedly easy for Spain, even without Pau Gasol. 
Argentina-Spain match was the key match for Spain indeed. Really hard match. A pity Argentina lost bronze but they obviously were morally destroyed after his defeat in semifinals.
Argentina-Spain match was the key match for Spain indeed. Really hard match. A pity Argentina lost bronze but they obviously were morally destroyed after his defeat in semifinals.From what i saw of the game most of Spain's 3-point shots went in, and there were a lot of them.
Also Greece never got into the game, although i doubt that this had nothing to do with Spain's defence.
The feeling was that Greece was the favourite to win, due to the loss of Gasol as well, but even when it tried to fight back it never looked like it could take control of the match. Also the systems seemed to have entirely failed, since most of the attempts were individual, and they too were not very good.
Stats in all fields were in favour of Spain.
So i would guess that the overall spanish 3 point stats were rather unexpectedly high for them, but also that they clearly deserved to win since defensively they had the very obvious better performance as well.
Also Greece never got into the game, although i doubt that this had nothing to do with Spain's defence.
The feeling was that Greece was the favourite to win, due to the loss of Gasol as well, but even when it tried to fight back it never looked like it could take control of the match. Also the systems seemed to have entirely failed, since most of the attempts were individual, and they too were not very good.
Stats in all fields were in favour of Spain.
So i would guess that the overall spanish 3 point stats were rather unexpectedly high for them, but also that they clearly deserved to win since defensively they had the very obvious better performance as well.
BlizzardGR said:
You're delusional. On an individual talent/skill level, the U.S. blows Greece out of the water.
But I agree with you, NBA basketball coddles the superstar by bailing them out every play with touch phantom fouls and promote individual vs indvidual through the media instead the team vs team as it was in 80s.
Greek deserved to win, they played better as a team. They have also played together much longer and have hell alot more practice than the U.S. as a team. Not to mention the fact, USA didn't even send all their best players.
Sisonpyh said:
Is this still true? The U.S.A. shot horriable from the 3 pt line, but who is good 3 pt shooters in the NBA--Bell,Nash,Nowitzki,Turkolo,Stojakovic--all not Americans. The U.S.A shot bad from the foul but who are good FT shooters in the NBA--Nash,Stojakovic,Ming,ect....again not American.
International ball is about attacking the zone--needs ballhanding and medium range shooters. Did the U.S.A. send Jason Kidd or Nash or any pt guard--no, we had Wade & james, #'s 2 & 6 in the NBA in turnovers. To shot the medium range jumpers we had the last couple of teams--Richard jefferson, Stotomarme,ect..guys who get all their pts off the fast break drunking--not shoting.
The U.S.A. was schooled @50 times vs Greece by the pick-N-roll--a play tought to 6th graders playing organized ball for the first time. The first 3 days of team U.S.A. practice coah k had them dribbling---thats correct, dribbling. Because the U.S.A. got called for travaling or palming the ball @ 20 a game every game in the last international event. How can you be "the best" if you casn't even dribble the ball right?
Send out best players? You mean Kobe & Shaq. Well tim Duncun the most Unphysical big man in the NBA fouled out of all the previous international games in 2004--how long would Shaq last? Kobe--he's a slasher ala Wade & lebron amd # 8 in tutnovers in the NBA.
The NBA could still win the gold every time if they wanted too--but it requirers a TEAM--Pt guards, 3 pointer shooters, defensive stoppers, ect.... not just 10 " stars thrown together--those days are gone. Coach K covered some of these weakness by fullcourt pressure and coming up with tons of easy buckets, but these could not last vs teams with good ballhandling they were such to face later.
jonatas
tropicalista
IMO yes it is true (as a non-American). The US has the greatest talent by far and away, which is not to say there aren't other countries which are good, because there are. But there really is no comparison when you get to it. You could have taken the best players from all the other teams in the tournament and put them on one team vs the US, and the US still would have had more talent. The US had 8 or 9 franchise players. You guys have an unbelievable talent pool, in spite of the fact that you can't win with it in International Basketball lately.
Ray Allen is probably the premier 3 point shooter in the league. He's about as pure as it gets. Some good players are poor at free throws, but then you have Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Corey Maggette etc... Spurs are notoriously bad at free throws, but they are probably the NBA best team of the last 5 or 6 years overall. However I agree that a big reason why the USA lost was because they started freezing up at the free throw line in the 3rd quarter (and poor defense).
Well Nash is Canadian
You did have Chris Paul, who is an amazing talent and led the tourney in assists. He can outplay any pg on the planet on a good night, though he is young. For medium range jumpers, you had Carmelo Anthony, who was probably the best single player offensively in the whole tournament IMO.
Kobe will be there eventually. Shaq is too old and wouldn't want to. Duncan swore off FIBA after getting very poor calls made consistently against him (His last words in the tourney he played were "$#^% FIBA"
One thing about International Basketball is that they do allow armed combat underneath the rim. But he did not like the foul calls as he felt they were biased against him in particular in that tournament)
This team wasn't bad Pawpaw. These guys were team players. They just lost. But I don't think they were egotistical. They just didn't get it done. International Basketball tournaments are a bit weird. A team like the US loses to Greece, and next Greece gets blown out by Spain, a team which had just lost its only franchise player to injury. You can't look at these results and say they were entirely logical. They're not easy to explain, which is partly due to the unpredictable nature of the International game.
I find the games cannot be controlled as precisely as the NBA games, because the games are shorter, time outs are harder to call, and the clock keeps running at the end of quarters. The games seem to build their own momentum, whereas in the NBA you can control pace a lot better by stopping the time. There is more strategy to the NBA. I find the NBA to be purer basketball requiring more talent, with the longer 3 point line, the longer and more strategic game, more fouls before getting kicked out and better handling of technical fouls (some of the technical fouls called in this tournament were awful, and no 2 free throws + possession, in addition to counting them as personal fouls - those things are all just crazy). Also the armed combat underneath the rim and rim interference in International Basketball is just weird. NBA is a better game. That said, there are no guarantees for the US in international tournaments, in spite of their talent. I realize this sounds as an excuse, but it's not. The US is playing other teams in their game, not the NBA style. Those teams play together and play to win in the International style. In a way it's good, because it will teach the US to really respect them and hopefully start to take it seriously, instead of being massive underacheivers.
Ray Allen is probably the premier 3 point shooter in the league. He's about as pure as it gets. Some good players are poor at free throws, but then you have Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Corey Maggette etc... Spurs are notoriously bad at free throws, but they are probably the NBA best team of the last 5 or 6 years overall. However I agree that a big reason why the USA lost was because they started freezing up at the free throw line in the 3rd quarter (and poor defense).
Well Nash is Canadian
You did have Chris Paul, who is an amazing talent and led the tourney in assists. He can outplay any pg on the planet on a good night, though he is young. For medium range jumpers, you had Carmelo Anthony, who was probably the best single player offensively in the whole tournament IMO. Kobe will be there eventually. Shaq is too old and wouldn't want to. Duncan swore off FIBA after getting very poor calls made consistently against him (His last words in the tourney he played were "$#^% FIBA"
One thing about International Basketball is that they do allow armed combat underneath the rim. But he did not like the foul calls as he felt they were biased against him in particular in that tournament)This team wasn't bad Pawpaw. These guys were team players. They just lost. But I don't think they were egotistical. They just didn't get it done. International Basketball tournaments are a bit weird. A team like the US loses to Greece, and next Greece gets blown out by Spain, a team which had just lost its only franchise player to injury. You can't look at these results and say they were entirely logical. They're not easy to explain, which is partly due to the unpredictable nature of the International game.
I find the games cannot be controlled as precisely as the NBA games, because the games are shorter, time outs are harder to call, and the clock keeps running at the end of quarters. The games seem to build their own momentum, whereas in the NBA you can control pace a lot better by stopping the time. There is more strategy to the NBA. I find the NBA to be purer basketball requiring more talent, with the longer 3 point line, the longer and more strategic game, more fouls before getting kicked out and better handling of technical fouls (some of the technical fouls called in this tournament were awful, and no 2 free throws + possession, in addition to counting them as personal fouls - those things are all just crazy). Also the armed combat underneath the rim and rim interference in International Basketball is just weird. NBA is a better game. That said, there are no guarantees for the US in international tournaments, in spite of their talent. I realize this sounds as an excuse, but it's not. The US is playing other teams in their game, not the NBA style. Those teams play together and play to win in the International style. In a way it's good, because it will teach the US to really respect them and hopefully start to take it seriously, instead of being massive underacheivers.
Urederra
Mostly harmless
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..........
[size=+3]WE WON!!!!!!![/size]
CAMPEONES, CAMPEONES, CAMPEONES.... OE, OE, OE.....
(and now you can go on discussing why the US team didn't win this time, again.
[size=+3]WE WON!!!!!!![/size]
CAMPEONES, CAMPEONES, CAMPEONES.... OE, OE, OE.....
(and now you can go on discussing why the US team didn't win this time, again.
jonatas
tropicalista
Oh yes, congratulations Spain
I'm glad my team (Toronto Raptors) signed one of the five best players in the tournament, Jorge Garbajosa. We already have Jose Calderon. Hopefully these players will be inspired by their world championship
I'm glad my team (Toronto Raptors) signed one of the five best players in the tournament, Jorge Garbajosa. We already have Jose Calderon. Hopefully these players will be inspired by their world championship
jonatas said:
I think THIS is the phrase that clutters the situation. WHAT IS the talent? Well its Basketball its:
Dribbling--on any given nite in a NBA game, 99% of the plays driving to the basket are traveling or palming the ball. In FIBA this gets called.
Shooting--Most of the American players are NOT good shooters ( just look at % with dunks removed ). Shooting is required in FIBA.
Foul Shots--if you shot 70% in the NBA you in the top half of the league--I could go out now and hit 8/10 no problem and I don't get paid millions.
Defense--80% of it in the NBA is 4 guys watching someone back down their 5th guy to the basket.
So if by talent you mean they can take off at mid court, dibble twice and dunk--yes
if you mean dribble, pass, shot, ect.. no its no longer true.
The NBA has bastardize the game for T.V.They grown up to play that way and when forced to play another way they are unprepared and " not as good "
jonatas
tropicalista
pawpaw said:
I don't think that's true Pawpaw. Like I said, the US has great young players: Wade, Lebron, Carmelo, Chris Paul, Bosh, Dwight Howard. These guys play the right way too. They're team players and they play defense. They lost, but they're good players. And today's NBA is full of international players, so you just can't say it sucks and blame it on the US. The NBA is more international than ever. Sure, it has its weak points, but I don't buy this stuff about it not being real basketball. Today's guys are bigger, stronger, more athletic and more international than ever, on the average. The US is no longer a lock to win International Competitions, but Canada doesn't win all the International championships in hockey either. Other countries have gotten better. It's all good IMO.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
Sorry, I think we are confussing fame, spectacle and money with talent here. They sure have talent since basket is a so popular sport in USA, but there is not reason to think they are "far and away" from any other professional player who dedicates his life to play basketball too. The only objective reason to make such afirmation would be to see they cruising in international games and that is not happening right now precisely.
Urederra
Mostly harmless
pawpaw said:
That's the key, IMHO. I am not an expert in basketball but I always found NBA to be anti-team work. If two players defend the guy with the ball it is penalized. NBA rules goes against team work.
pawpaw said:
The hell are you talking about? First off, the NBA 3point line is farther away than the international line. And you conviently left out players like Ray Allen, Hamilton, Billups, Gordan - ad nauseum. Dirk/Peja/Turkolo weren't even top 20 in terms of 3pt % last season.
pawpaw said:
They sent Paul and Hinrich, who did just fine. Hinirich didn't shoot as well as he normally does. And Paul had the 4th or 5th most assists in an international tournament, ever.
pawpaw said:
Thats great. They had one off game and destroyed everyone else they played. Their defense was horrible against Greece, you are correct. Simple lack of communication and not enought practice. You have to realize this team has only been playing together for about 1 month now.
pawpaw said:
They let that go in the NBA. Which is the where the best players in the world flock to play.
pawpaw said:
Unphysical is not a word.
No, I don't mean Shaq. I mean, Duncan, KG, Kobe, Pierce etc. Duncan is probably the best power forward in the world. And he fouled out because international ball is less physical and is called completely differently than in the NBA. Which was one of the main reasons he didn't want to compete.
pawpaw said:
No, Kobe isn't a slasher and his game is much more complete than both Wade and Lebron - espcially his perimeter game. He would of had the most expeience on that team and would of also been a captain. Not to mention, he would of also been team USA's best perimeter defender. Something they were struggling with.
pawpaw said:
You're wrong but ok. If you want to SEE what HAPPENS when the USA actually sends their best, check out 1992. That is probably the only year in the past 30 years where they actually sent the 'best of the best'. And what happened? They sleepwalked through the Olympics blowing teams out by 40+ whilst not calling 1 timeout the entire tournament.
But it does require TEAM. And a team requires time to gel and needs practice. USA had about 25 guys and cut the team down to 12 in a matter of 3-4 weeks. The actual team (official roster) probably didn't even have a 'real' team practice until the tournament had already started. Whereas Greece has been playing together for quite some time now. That and not having to 'adjust' to different rules is probably the biggest advantage one team can have. Especially when it comes to a team game. It happens in every sport, the more well prepared/practice with less talent sometime defeats bigger, faster more talented team. I don't see how this situation is any different.
See the problem with your argument is this. They pretty much destroyed every team, including Argentina (who is better than Greece). I won't take anything away from Greece though. Greece out coached and out played and the U.S. who was already having a tough shooting night. They capitalized on that and took the win. Once 2008 rolls around we will have a better representation of USA basketball. They will actually have time practice and gel as a TEAM.
But really, if the Greek players had more skill and 'talent' than USA squad, they would be dominating the NBA and making 15 million a year.
pawpaw said:
NBA is the most watched and considered the best basketball in the world. Try again. And if you force any other person in the world to adjust to crappy rules (read: FIBA rules), their game will be affected if they don't have the proper time to adjust (which USA did not).
jonatas
tropicalista
I don't think I'm confusing anything. To me, a better indicator than a one game international championship is the NBA itself, where there are a lot of Europeans (the best ones) playing anyway. That is the highest level of basketball. The best american players don't go to Europe, they stay in the NBA. And to be honest, the US team has a lot of "franchise players". Spain has one too, Gasol. So does Germany. You could build an NBA team around Nowitski and Gasol, but there's not too many other teams that had that level of player in the tournament. But US has like 8 or 9 exceptional players on their team. To me that means the US really does have the best talent pool, even though they lost yet another international tournament . Yes I know you can go ahead and laugh at my argument, but I'm not American either I do try to be objective about it, I think they're very good and the NBA is the best basketball in the world.
The NBA is changing anyway. It's more international than it's ever been. The overall rules are pretty good actually, much better than International rules IMO (Refs suck in both competitions though). My team, Toronto, has 2 or 3 Americans
Everyone else is European. We have two Spanish players: Calderon and Garbajosa. So you can't criticize my NBA team 
. Yes I know you can go ahead and laugh at my argument, but I'm not American either I do try to be objective about it, I think they're very good and the NBA is the best basketball in the world.The NBA is changing anyway. It's more international than it's ever been. The overall rules are pretty good actually, much better than International rules IMO (Refs suck in both competitions though). My team, Toronto, has 2 or 3 Americans
Everyone else is European. We have two Spanish players: Calderon and Garbajosa. So you can't criticize my NBA team 
