Kankan
Ọba
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2024
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Oke Ora, an ancient community where the founders of Ife and the Ife Empire as a whole had originated from
As a wonder, it'd likely carry a cultural bonus
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Filling in the gaps - Charting the optimal Civ Switches
- Thread starter Lord Lakely
- Start date
As a wonder, it'd likely carry a cultural bonus
I would think the Ajuran Sultanate would probably be used over the Adal considering they lasted longer and fits in more with the "exploration" theme. The other thing they could do is call the civ Somalia and give them attributes for both alongside the Sultanate of Mogadishu.
I think with the civ switching mechanics, I think that would make them work for this game. It's as similar to the Mississippians going into a multitude of indigenous American civs.
Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
Alright, Africa then.
So for starters, let's see what we already have. Currently, Civ7 has five Civilizations which are geographically centered inside Africa: Egypt, Aksum, Carthage, Songhai and Buganda. The former three are all Antiquity, with Carthage being a colonial power based in Africa, rather than a political entity run by indigenous Africans. Egypt is also distinct from the three Subsaharan ('black') entities of Aksum, Songhai and Buganda.
Additionally, the Abbasid Civilization and upcoming Ottoman Civilization both had large holdings in muslim Africa, specifically the Maghreb and Egypt.
The game has a handful of leaders who are natively African: Hatshepsut, Amina, Ibn Battuta (who is Berber) and the soon to be added Sayyida al Hurrah. Harriet Tubman is also lumped in with 'Africa' due to her ancestry, but she typically pivots *out* of the African lines to lead America in Modern.
So in sum, we currently have the following
The 'African line': Aksum => Songhai => Buganda, which is the typical path for Amina and Harriet.
Egypt and Carthage, which can typically be led by Amina and Harriet if both spawn in the same game, or if one of them spawns alongside Hatshepsut or Ibn (or, presumably Sayyida).
By proxy, Abbasids and Ottomans.
As I'm sure most of us agree, this is pretty bad in terms of representation. It's understandable some regions (Polynesia, Africa, South America) start the game underdeveloped due to a lack of popularity or general knowledge about them, plus the cost and time it takes to research and then design a Civilization from scratch. Still, Africa has a lot on offer, and there are definitely several areas that have gaps to plug.
I believe I've already looked at Egypt, which is more tangenially related to the Middle East than to the rest of Africa, and I believe its 'ascencions' into Abbasids and Ottomans are satisfactory paths for the moment being. So I will not mention them much beyond this paragraph. Any routes Egypt should take all pass via the Mediterranean (Byzantium) or the Islamic World (Arabia, Yemen, Ottomans), not Africa itself.
Carthage is a bit different due to the existence of the Berbers (who *are* native to Africa but also mingled with the Phoenicians, Arabs and Vandals over time). I'll address Carthage near the end.
If we look at Askum, Songhai and Buganda, all three of these are located in separate parts of the continent. So effectively, these are three pathways that are smushed together in one clump, which should be broken down in *at least* three parts. This is what I believe the priority should be for Africa at the moment; introduce Civs that are more natural transition paths for what already exists.
We can look at this geographically (what political entities have existed in the same area?) or meritocratically (Which Civs from Africa deserve Inclusion and how do they tie to what already exists?), or a mixture of both.
Additionally, the following criteria have to be met:
East Africa
Aksum, an Abyssinian kingdom, has a geographical link to Nubia (Sudan), and Somalia, while its main ethnicity, the Amhara have a distinct straight line all the way from Aksum to Ethiopia via several Amhara kingdom such as Showa. This makes East Africa a fairly easy region to find lines for
There is a straight-up Abyssinian line which starts with Askum and ends in Ethiopia, where the identity of the Exploration Civ or Civs has quite a bit of leeway. Ethiopia proper, which is heavily hinted at in Askum's Civilopedia entry, is most likely planned at a certain point.
So that leaves the Exploration bit. There are a few options there:
One option is to not have a straight Ethiopian line at all, with the Exploration Civs between Askum and Ethiopia coming from outside of Abyssinia. This would allow for options such as Yemen, the Swahili, Somalia and Sudan to have representation.
The other is to specifically pick an Abyssian kingdom (such as Showa) or ethnicity (such as the Oromo) for the 'middle' portion of their path.
Or, you can look at a political entity such as the Adal Sultanate, which was ethnically Somali but geographically Abyssinian, which plugs the gap beautifully imo (this is why I prefer Adal over the more prominent and powerful Ajuraan, btw. The historic ties with Ethiopia are perfect for Civ7 imo).
Regardless, I personally would say that it's fine for Abyssinia to get two direct Civs, with the Exploration stage as a culturally Somali Civ.
Additionally, East Africa has a couple of other Civs in the area that are deserving of inclusion across all three ages:
Nubia, which existed in Civ6 and whose kit can be easily adapted for Civ7, as well as its successor kingdoms Alodia, Makuria and Darfur.
The Swahili, which are descendants of the Bantu, but were a powerful politity to the south of Somalia
Yemen and Oman, which are Arabic, true, but had a lot of influence over Ethiopia and the region.
In sum, I could image the *core Abyssinian line* as this:
while the overarching East African line could be something such as this:
While not geographically centered in Africa, Oman has a lot of influence over the region and could function as the alternative capstone Civ over Ethiopia. Madagascar can also be included in the above schedule but I do not know enough about them to know how exactly they tie in with the rest, nor what Age they should feature in.
Finally, Buganda can, due to its location on the Nile function as an end point for both the Askumite line AND its alternative East African line. Swahili is also tied to the Bantu kingdom of the South, which would allow for it to transition into the Zulu or Xhosa in Modern as well.
For leaders, this region lacks them completely, so I would like to see an Abyssinian leader down the line. There is a wide berth of good options: Makeda (the Queen of Sheba), Gudit, Ezana, Zara Yaqob, Menelik II and his wife Taytu Betul, Haile Selassie, etc. Options not from Abyssinia that would fit the region would include Muhammad Ali Pasha (annexed Sudan into modern Egypt), a Kushite monarch (Amanitore, Piye, Amanirenas), and Fumo Liongo, a legendary Swahili folk hero. Ibn Battuta can also function as a secondary or *tertiary* leader of this line, as he can technically lead the entire Islamic World. And that's just the ones I know about, I'm pretty sure Alexander Hetairoi is ready to fire off a few more names once this post goes live.
Southern & Central Africa:
This is the area I'm the least knowledgable about, so I will keep it as concise as I can. This area so far only contains Buganda. I don't mind this inclusion in itself, even if it doesn't carry the same gravitas as the Zulu or Ethopia.
The history of Central and Southern Africa is defined by an event called 'the Bantu Expansion', a speculated migration of the Bantu people who spread around before the game's Exploration Age. Many ethnicities in the area speak a Bantu-family language, which include the Swahili, Zulu, Kongolese, etc.
For the Civs, I think it's pretty clear where we start and whatwe work towards: we start with the Bantu, and work towards Buganda.
However, because there are so many Bantu ethnicities, I believe we can have a fully fledged Bantu line, starting with a Bantu Civ in Antiquity, the Swahili in Exploration and ending with Buganda in Modern. All three of these Civs fit the criteria, and they would *make sense* as being linked in a game where Spain can become France.
Antiquity Bantu would be based on the urbanised Sotho-Tswana people (as opposed to the pastoral Nguni people, which includes the Zulu and Xhosa) and can be called 'Sotho' or 'Tswana 'as such. Its associated Wonder would be an archaeological site predating Great Zimbabwe, such as Mapungubwe or Leopold's Kopje. Their city list would include associated towns and archaeological sites across RSA, leSotho, eSwatini, Namibia and boTswana. I envision them as a Quarter Civ, as opposed to an Improvement Civ, to really underline their urbanization.
Exploration Bantu has several potential faces: Kongo, the aforementioned Swahili or a kingdom related to the Shona people (which I'll list below as 'Shona', but the Civ can be called Zimbabwe, Mutapa or something else). Kongo would be a quarter Civ with the Mbanza taking centre stage. Swahili I also see as a quarter Civ with it being maritime, specifically. Shona I'm less certain about, largely due to my own lack of knowledge. Their city list would have its capital at Zimbabwe, and would include cites inside the present-day country of Zimbabwe and Zambia alongside those of the Mutapa, Rovzi and Khami empires.
Modern Bantu can lead into Buganda or the Nguni branch. AmaZulu and AmaXhosa are difficult Civs to include in Civ7 due to the Wonder restrictions, and the prime candidates for both the Zulu AND the Xhosa aren't particularly show-stopping. That said, one of these Civs *should* make it in based on merit (I'll list both below). The Zulu and Xhosa should both have an improvement if they're included. (their city lists is fairly easy too, the only real thing holding them back is the Wonder).
So in sum, I see Central and Southern Africa as a Bantu-driven affair:
Other ethnicities in the area, such as the San and Maasai are probably better left as independent powers. I also stumbled across a kingdom in Cameroon during my research, but I'm leaving it off for now. I don't really know enough about the region to go for two Antiquity Civs. I believe the other regions of Africa can provide better candidates for Antiquity and I don't oppose the idea of West Africa leading into Kongo and East Africa leading into Swahili.
For leaders: Shaka is the clear standout to me. As I've written in my schematic above, I really like the idea of a Shaka Leader (with the Impi as an ageless, self-upgrading Unique Unit only he can train) and a Xhosa Civ for variety, and hope it happens. The most prominent non-Shaka choices from this region are Ana Nzinga and Nelson Mandela, but there are a few Zulu, Xhosa and even Sotho kings that could be chosen as well. But let's not kid ourselves, the first leader from this region MUST be Shaka.
West-Africa:
West-Africa already has some things going for it. For starters, the Songhai exist. Secondly, two leaders are tied to the region: Amina (who is Songhai's associated leader) and Harriet who presumably had West-African heritage.
As we've already went over this part of Africa, I can simply be brief: This region should be structured similarly to West-Africa: one central line (this time based on Niger(ia) and its many ethnicities), with three alternative Civs (one in each Era) from the region.
Interestingly, the Mali empire already overlaps with the Songhai and its own predecessor, the Ghana empire, so I think it's valid for Mali to sit this one out. Adding the Civ to Exploration while the Songhai already exist over any other option in the region would be a bit of a waste of a slot.
I could imagine a 'Mali' line as starting with Ghana/Wagadu, then going through Songhai into the Anshanti empire, while there is also a *parallel* Nigerian line that starts with Ife, goes through Benin into Oyo. The Mali Line ties into North Africa, while the Nigerian is liked to Kongo and Buganda.
Some notes:
Benin is chosen for Exploration due to a lack of good wonder candidates from other Civs in the area, however they have a massive overlap with not only the Songhai, but also the other Nigerian Civs in Ife and Oyo. I'd rather have Kanem or Jolof take their place, but I failed to find a good Wonder for either of them.
Modern has several options such as Bornu, Sokoto and Dahomey. Dahomey was especially tempting for the Gbeto, but since Dahomey itself was mostly subservient to the Oyo, wouldn't it be better to just... have the Oyo with the Gbeto as one of their Unique Units? The alternative would be moving Dahomey to Exploration which isn't chronologically sound to me.
I feel like Songhai represents the Hausa well enough as is, and so I see no reason to add a separate Hausaland civ. Besides, most of these empires *are* multi-ethnic anyway, so I don't feel like we should pin ourselves down on distinct ethnic representation. Pick a worthy empire, and you'll inherently add Civs that many people can identify with.
The Osun Osogbo grove came up during research and looks *really* cool and unique, and might work as a wonder for Ife, which I imagine as having a pantheon focused + sciency undertone kit. Benin should be about building Fortifications, similar to Dai Viet and Normans, but with a focus on Production and/or Science. Wagadu rose to power based on its material wealth, so I wanted a Mine Wonder to underscore that. The Gold Mines of Bambouk work, as do the Salt mines of Awdaghost. Ashanti's Wonder is the Kumasi Fort which is now repurposed as a museum, which can be used to give them a distinctly militaristic tone.
The University of Sankoré can be an unassociated Wonder for the region.
West Africa technically doesn't need another leader because it already has Amina and Harriet, but if a third one is added, it should be one with a nod to the Mali empire: Sundiata or Mansa Musa. Yaa Assantewaa or Idia would also be top choices for me, but not with Amina already being in the game, chickens!
North Africa
Finally, North Africa, which is always tied to West Africa via trade, should largely focus on the Maghreb. This region should have no more than three specialized Civs, one for each age.
The Berbers and Tuareg that call it home should be used as the focal point for the Civ design, especially now that Civ7 has two Berber leaders (Ibn and Sayyida). Due to this, I don't feel like another North African leader needs to be added to the game.
As far as Civs are concerned, we already have Carthage, which I think works as a starting point. The Numidians which are currently an independent power are a polity that I believe is better off as a mod, rather than a full-fledged addition. Besides, they already provide the unique unit for Carthage...
The Abbasids and Ottomans however, do not suffice as representation for the region. The city of Carthage *was* located in Africa proper, while Baghdad and Constantinople are not.
As such, I believe the Exploration and Modern Civs from this region should lean into Berbers. I personally... don't mind a Berber Civ for Exploration (understatement. I've *designed* an Exploration Berber Civ months ago), which encompasses the Almoravids and Almohads. This Civ could then choose between Morocco and Ottomans in the Modern Age.
So to visualize it, I think it should look like this:
Notes:
This line-up represents all three countries of the Maghreb (Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco respectively), and by keeping the Berbers as a 'blob', you can also give them the Alhambra wonder, and reference al-Andalus that way. Aït Benhaddou is my back-up pick for the Berber wonder.
Designwise, I envision both Amazigh and Morocco as having a Cavalry unit for their UU. Morocco's should be a Meharist. Berbers I'm less sure about (maybe some sort of Tuareg cavalry? a Camel Archer? Maybe a Xebec if the Ottomans don't get it).
Amazigh should be a quarter Civ (they have several really good choices for Unique buildings, including the Agadir, a fortified Granary), while Morocco can have Kasbah's as an improvement.
I decided to not add a secondary Antiquity Civ because I feel like Wagadu in North Africa can carry some of the burden, as well as the Goths if they're added. If I did have a second pick, it would easily be the Tuareg, with the Tomb of Tin Hinan as their associated Wonder.
As stated above, this line needs no further leaders as it already has a dedicated one in Sayyida al-Hurra. *THAT* being said, Hannibal should be added, right? Like... come on.
~~~~~~
So to recap, Africa needs a lot of content added, and a lot of streamlining still. Probably more than what we will actually get. So, here are the additions I would propose, sorted via urgency:
MOST URGENT:
So for starters, let's see what we already have. Currently, Civ7 has five Civilizations which are geographically centered inside Africa: Egypt, Aksum, Carthage, Songhai and Buganda. The former three are all Antiquity, with Carthage being a colonial power based in Africa, rather than a political entity run by indigenous Africans. Egypt is also distinct from the three Subsaharan ('black') entities of Aksum, Songhai and Buganda.
Additionally, the Abbasid Civilization and upcoming Ottoman Civilization both had large holdings in muslim Africa, specifically the Maghreb and Egypt.
The game has a handful of leaders who are natively African: Hatshepsut, Amina, Ibn Battuta (who is Berber) and the soon to be added Sayyida al Hurrah. Harriet Tubman is also lumped in with 'Africa' due to her ancestry, but she typically pivots *out* of the African lines to lead America in Modern.
So in sum, we currently have the following
The 'African line': Aksum => Songhai => Buganda, which is the typical path for Amina and Harriet.
Egypt and Carthage, which can typically be led by Amina and Harriet if both spawn in the same game, or if one of them spawns alongside Hatshepsut or Ibn (or, presumably Sayyida).
By proxy, Abbasids and Ottomans.
As I'm sure most of us agree, this is pretty bad in terms of representation. It's understandable some regions (Polynesia, Africa, South America) start the game underdeveloped due to a lack of popularity or general knowledge about them, plus the cost and time it takes to research and then design a Civilization from scratch. Still, Africa has a lot on offer, and there are definitely several areas that have gaps to plug.
I believe I've already looked at Egypt, which is more tangenially related to the Middle East than to the rest of Africa, and I believe its 'ascencions' into Abbasids and Ottomans are satisfactory paths for the moment being. So I will not mention them much beyond this paragraph. Any routes Egypt should take all pass via the Mediterranean (Byzantium) or the Islamic World (Arabia, Yemen, Ottomans), not Africa itself.
Carthage is a bit different due to the existence of the Berbers (who *are* native to Africa but also mingled with the Phoenicians, Arabs and Vandals over time). I'll address Carthage near the end.
If we look at Askum, Songhai and Buganda, all three of these are located in separate parts of the continent. So effectively, these are three pathways that are smushed together in one clump, which should be broken down in *at least* three parts. This is what I believe the priority should be for Africa at the moment; introduce Civs that are more natural transition paths for what already exists.
We can look at this geographically (what political entities have existed in the same area?) or meritocratically (Which Civs from Africa deserve Inclusion and how do they tie to what already exists?), or a mixture of both.
Additionally, the following criteria have to be met:
- Enough 'material' for a Unique military Unit (or potentially two in Modern)
- Enough 'material' for a Unique Improvement or Quarter
- Enough urban sites to provide a City List of at least 30 names.
- A viable World Wonder that can be linked to the Civilization.
East Africa
Aksum, an Abyssinian kingdom, has a geographical link to Nubia (Sudan), and Somalia, while its main ethnicity, the Amhara have a distinct straight line all the way from Aksum to Ethiopia via several Amhara kingdom such as Showa. This makes East Africa a fairly easy region to find lines for
There is a straight-up Abyssinian line which starts with Askum and ends in Ethiopia, where the identity of the Exploration Civ or Civs has quite a bit of leeway. Ethiopia proper, which is heavily hinted at in Askum's Civilopedia entry, is most likely planned at a certain point.
So that leaves the Exploration bit. There are a few options there:
One option is to not have a straight Ethiopian line at all, with the Exploration Civs between Askum and Ethiopia coming from outside of Abyssinia. This would allow for options such as Yemen, the Swahili, Somalia and Sudan to have representation.
The other is to specifically pick an Abyssian kingdom (such as Showa) or ethnicity (such as the Oromo) for the 'middle' portion of their path.
Or, you can look at a political entity such as the Adal Sultanate, which was ethnically Somali but geographically Abyssinian, which plugs the gap beautifully imo (this is why I prefer Adal over the more prominent and powerful Ajuraan, btw. The historic ties with Ethiopia are perfect for Civ7 imo).
Regardless, I personally would say that it's fine for Abyssinia to get two direct Civs, with the Exploration stage as a culturally Somali Civ.
Additionally, East Africa has a couple of other Civs in the area that are deserving of inclusion across all three ages:
Nubia, which existed in Civ6 and whose kit can be easily adapted for Civ7, as well as its successor kingdoms Alodia, Makuria and Darfur.
The Swahili, which are descendants of the Bantu, but were a powerful politity to the south of Somalia
Yemen and Oman, which are Arabic, true, but had a lot of influence over Ethiopia and the region.
In sum, I could image the *core Abyssinian line* as this:
while the overarching East African line could be something such as this:
While not geographically centered in Africa, Oman has a lot of influence over the region and could function as the alternative capstone Civ over Ethiopia. Madagascar can also be included in the above schedule but I do not know enough about them to know how exactly they tie in with the rest, nor what Age they should feature in.
Finally, Buganda can, due to its location on the Nile function as an end point for both the Askumite line AND its alternative East African line. Swahili is also tied to the Bantu kingdom of the South, which would allow for it to transition into the Zulu or Xhosa in Modern as well.
For leaders, this region lacks them completely, so I would like to see an Abyssinian leader down the line. There is a wide berth of good options: Makeda (the Queen of Sheba), Gudit, Ezana, Zara Yaqob, Menelik II and his wife Taytu Betul, Haile Selassie, etc. Options not from Abyssinia that would fit the region would include Muhammad Ali Pasha (annexed Sudan into modern Egypt), a Kushite monarch (Amanitore, Piye, Amanirenas), and Fumo Liongo, a legendary Swahili folk hero. Ibn Battuta can also function as a secondary or *tertiary* leader of this line, as he can technically lead the entire Islamic World. And that's just the ones I know about, I'm pretty sure Alexander Hetairoi is ready to fire off a few more names once this post goes live.
Southern & Central Africa:
This is the area I'm the least knowledgable about, so I will keep it as concise as I can. This area so far only contains Buganda. I don't mind this inclusion in itself, even if it doesn't carry the same gravitas as the Zulu or Ethopia.
The history of Central and Southern Africa is defined by an event called 'the Bantu Expansion', a speculated migration of the Bantu people who spread around before the game's Exploration Age. Many ethnicities in the area speak a Bantu-family language, which include the Swahili, Zulu, Kongolese, etc.
For the Civs, I think it's pretty clear where we start and whatwe work towards: we start with the Bantu, and work towards Buganda.
However, because there are so many Bantu ethnicities, I believe we can have a fully fledged Bantu line, starting with a Bantu Civ in Antiquity, the Swahili in Exploration and ending with Buganda in Modern. All three of these Civs fit the criteria, and they would *make sense* as being linked in a game where Spain can become France.
Antiquity Bantu would be based on the urbanised Sotho-Tswana people (as opposed to the pastoral Nguni people, which includes the Zulu and Xhosa) and can be called 'Sotho' or 'Tswana 'as such. Its associated Wonder would be an archaeological site predating Great Zimbabwe, such as Mapungubwe or Leopold's Kopje. Their city list would include associated towns and archaeological sites across RSA, leSotho, eSwatini, Namibia and boTswana. I envision them as a Quarter Civ, as opposed to an Improvement Civ, to really underline their urbanization.
Exploration Bantu has several potential faces: Kongo, the aforementioned Swahili or a kingdom related to the Shona people (which I'll list below as 'Shona', but the Civ can be called Zimbabwe, Mutapa or something else). Kongo would be a quarter Civ with the Mbanza taking centre stage. Swahili I also see as a quarter Civ with it being maritime, specifically. Shona I'm less certain about, largely due to my own lack of knowledge. Their city list would have its capital at Zimbabwe, and would include cites inside the present-day country of Zimbabwe and Zambia alongside those of the Mutapa, Rovzi and Khami empires.
Modern Bantu can lead into Buganda or the Nguni branch. AmaZulu and AmaXhosa are difficult Civs to include in Civ7 due to the Wonder restrictions, and the prime candidates for both the Zulu AND the Xhosa aren't particularly show-stopping. That said, one of these Civs *should* make it in based on merit (I'll list both below). The Zulu and Xhosa should both have an improvement if they're included. (their city lists is fairly easy too, the only real thing holding them back is the Wonder).
So in sum, I see Central and Southern Africa as a Bantu-driven affair:
Other ethnicities in the area, such as the San and Maasai are probably better left as independent powers. I also stumbled across a kingdom in Cameroon during my research, but I'm leaving it off for now. I don't really know enough about the region to go for two Antiquity Civs. I believe the other regions of Africa can provide better candidates for Antiquity and I don't oppose the idea of West Africa leading into Kongo and East Africa leading into Swahili.
For leaders: Shaka is the clear standout to me. As I've written in my schematic above, I really like the idea of a Shaka Leader (with the Impi as an ageless, self-upgrading Unique Unit only he can train) and a Xhosa Civ for variety, and hope it happens. The most prominent non-Shaka choices from this region are Ana Nzinga and Nelson Mandela, but there are a few Zulu, Xhosa and even Sotho kings that could be chosen as well. But let's not kid ourselves, the first leader from this region MUST be Shaka.
West-Africa:
West-Africa already has some things going for it. For starters, the Songhai exist. Secondly, two leaders are tied to the region: Amina (who is Songhai's associated leader) and Harriet who presumably had West-African heritage.
As we've already went over this part of Africa, I can simply be brief: This region should be structured similarly to West-Africa: one central line (this time based on Niger(ia) and its many ethnicities), with three alternative Civs (one in each Era) from the region.
Interestingly, the Mali empire already overlaps with the Songhai and its own predecessor, the Ghana empire, so I think it's valid for Mali to sit this one out. Adding the Civ to Exploration while the Songhai already exist over any other option in the region would be a bit of a waste of a slot.
I could imagine a 'Mali' line as starting with Ghana/Wagadu, then going through Songhai into the Anshanti empire, while there is also a *parallel* Nigerian line that starts with Ife, goes through Benin into Oyo. The Mali Line ties into North Africa, while the Nigerian is liked to Kongo and Buganda.
Some notes:
Benin is chosen for Exploration due to a lack of good wonder candidates from other Civs in the area, however they have a massive overlap with not only the Songhai, but also the other Nigerian Civs in Ife and Oyo. I'd rather have Kanem or Jolof take their place, but I failed to find a good Wonder for either of them.
Modern has several options such as Bornu, Sokoto and Dahomey. Dahomey was especially tempting for the Gbeto, but since Dahomey itself was mostly subservient to the Oyo, wouldn't it be better to just... have the Oyo with the Gbeto as one of their Unique Units? The alternative would be moving Dahomey to Exploration which isn't chronologically sound to me.
I feel like Songhai represents the Hausa well enough as is, and so I see no reason to add a separate Hausaland civ. Besides, most of these empires *are* multi-ethnic anyway, so I don't feel like we should pin ourselves down on distinct ethnic representation. Pick a worthy empire, and you'll inherently add Civs that many people can identify with.
The Osun Osogbo grove came up during research and looks *really* cool and unique, and might work as a wonder for Ife, which I imagine as having a pantheon focused + sciency undertone kit. Benin should be about building Fortifications, similar to Dai Viet and Normans, but with a focus on Production and/or Science. Wagadu rose to power based on its material wealth, so I wanted a Mine Wonder to underscore that. The Gold Mines of Bambouk work, as do the Salt mines of Awdaghost. Ashanti's Wonder is the Kumasi Fort which is now repurposed as a museum, which can be used to give them a distinctly militaristic tone.
The University of Sankoré can be an unassociated Wonder for the region.
West Africa technically doesn't need another leader because it already has Amina and Harriet, but if a third one is added, it should be one with a nod to the Mali empire: Sundiata or Mansa Musa. Yaa Assantewaa or Idia would also be top choices for me, but not with Amina already being in the game, chickens!
North Africa
Finally, North Africa, which is always tied to West Africa via trade, should largely focus on the Maghreb. This region should have no more than three specialized Civs, one for each age.
The Berbers and Tuareg that call it home should be used as the focal point for the Civ design, especially now that Civ7 has two Berber leaders (Ibn and Sayyida). Due to this, I don't feel like another North African leader needs to be added to the game.
As far as Civs are concerned, we already have Carthage, which I think works as a starting point. The Numidians which are currently an independent power are a polity that I believe is better off as a mod, rather than a full-fledged addition. Besides, they already provide the unique unit for Carthage...
The Abbasids and Ottomans however, do not suffice as representation for the region. The city of Carthage *was* located in Africa proper, while Baghdad and Constantinople are not.
As such, I believe the Exploration and Modern Civs from this region should lean into Berbers. I personally... don't mind a Berber Civ for Exploration (understatement. I've *designed* an Exploration Berber Civ months ago), which encompasses the Almoravids and Almohads. This Civ could then choose between Morocco and Ottomans in the Modern Age.
So to visualize it, I think it should look like this:
Notes:
This line-up represents all three countries of the Maghreb (Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco respectively), and by keeping the Berbers as a 'blob', you can also give them the Alhambra wonder, and reference al-Andalus that way. Aït Benhaddou is my back-up pick for the Berber wonder.
Designwise, I envision both Amazigh and Morocco as having a Cavalry unit for their UU. Morocco's should be a Meharist. Berbers I'm less sure about (maybe some sort of Tuareg cavalry? a Camel Archer? Maybe a Xebec if the Ottomans don't get it).
Amazigh should be a quarter Civ (they have several really good choices for Unique buildings, including the Agadir, a fortified Granary), while Morocco can have Kasbah's as an improvement.
I decided to not add a secondary Antiquity Civ because I feel like Wagadu in North Africa can carry some of the burden, as well as the Goths if they're added. If I did have a second pick, it would easily be the Tuareg, with the Tomb of Tin Hinan as their associated Wonder.
As stated above, this line needs no further leaders as it already has a dedicated one in Sayyida al-Hurra. *THAT* being said, Hannibal should be added, right? Like... come on.
~~~~~~
So to recap, Africa needs a lot of content added, and a lot of streamlining still. Probably more than what we will actually get. So, here are the additions I would propose, sorted via urgency:
MOST URGENT:
- Antiquity West-Africa & Modern West Africa: personal choices: Ghana & Ashanti
- Exploration East Africa & Modern East Africa: personal choices: Swahili & Ethiopia
- Antiquity & Exploration Bantu Civ, as a prelude to Buganda: Suggestions: Sotho & Shona
- New Leaders: Ethiopian leader (any gender, any time period), Hannibal and Shaka.
- Marghrebian Civ that doesn't include the Abbasids or Ottomans: ie: Amazigh/Andalus (EXP) OR Morocco (MOD)
- Full Abyssinian line (potentially via Somalia)
- Full line for EITHER Mali OR Nigeria
- Full lines for BOTH Mali *and* Nigeria
- Missing Maghrebian Civ (whoever isn't added above)
- Xhosa or Zulu Civ
- Malagasy Civ (Exploration or Modern)
- Return of Nubia and Kongo as playable Civs
- The addition of Mansa Musa or Sundiata Keita as a playable leader
- The addition of a second Southern African leader (after Shaka)
- Potential new Civs: Jolof, Kanem/Bornu, Sokoto, Darfur, etc...
Ryansinbela
Emperor
I’m looking forward to that
We need more Caribbean civs
We need more Caribbean civs
With every new DLC announcement, I always think that this time we’ll finally get at least a little help to sort out the chaos that is the African transitions, but it’s never the case. 
Maybe they think African civs wouldn’t sell as well in DLCs and are saving them for an expansion.
(Note: I don’t consider Carthage an African civ, even if it is geographically, and the same goes for Egypt.)
I’d say the most urgent ones at the moment are Ghana, something Exploration Age of East African, and something modern from North or West Africa (Morocco? Ashanti?).
Maybe they think African civs wouldn’t sell as well in DLCs and are saving them for an expansion.(Note: I don’t consider Carthage an African civ, even if it is geographically, and the same goes for Egypt.)
I’d say the most urgent ones at the moment are Ghana, something Exploration Age of East African, and something modern from North or West Africa (Morocco? Ashanti?).
moondog385
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No notes on this. So well done. West Africa in particular is so rich with possibilities and it makes me sad that they haven't really explored it at all besides the two Sahelian empires. Only thing is I'm having trouble visualizing the antiquity Bantu civ but it sounds like an interesting idea in theory.Alright, Africa then.
So for starters, let's see what we already have. Currently, Civ7 has five Civilizations which are geographically centered inside Africa: Egypt, Aksum, Carthage, Songhai and Buganda. The former three are all Antiquity, with Carthage being a colonial power based in Africa, rather than a political entity run by indigenous Africans. Egypt is also distinct from the three Subsaharan ('black') entities of Aksum, Songhai and Buganda.
Additionally, the Abbasid Civilization and upcoming Ottoman Civilization both had large holdings in muslim Africa, specifically the Maghreb and Egypt.
The game has a handful of leaders who are natively African: Hatshepsut, Amina, Ibn Battuta (who is Berber) and the soon to be added Sayyida al Hurrah. Harriet Tubman is also lumped in with 'Africa' due to her ancestry, but she typically pivots *out* of the African lines to lead America in Modern.
So in sum, we currently have the following
The 'African line': Aksum => Songhai => Buganda, which is the typical path for Amina and Harriet.
Egypt and Carthage, which can typically be led by Amina and Harriet if both spawn in the same game, or if one of them spawns alongside Hatshepsut or Ibn (or, presumably Sayyida).
By proxy, Abbasids and Ottomans.
As I'm sure most of us agree, this is pretty bad in terms of representation. It's understandable some regions (Polynesia, Africa, South America) start the game underdeveloped due to a lack of popularity or general knowledge about them, plus the cost and time it takes to research and then design a Civilization from scratch. Still, Africa has a lot on offer, and there are definitely several areas that have gaps to plug.
I believe I've already looked at Egypt, which is more tangenially related to the Middle East than to the rest of Africa, and I believe its 'ascencions' into Abbasids and Ottomans are satisfactory paths for the moment being. So I will not mention them much beyond this paragraph. Any routes Egypt should take all pass via the Mediterranean (Byzantium) or the Islamic World (Arabia, Yemen, Ottomans), not Africa itself.
Carthage is a bit different due to the existence of the Berbers (who *are* native to Africa but also mingled with the Phoenicians, Arabs and Vandals over time). I'll address Carthage near the end.
If we look at Askum, Songhai and Buganda, all three of these are located in separate parts of the continent. So effectively, these are three pathways that are smushed together in one clump, which should be broken down in *at least* three parts. This is what I believe the priority should be for Africa at the moment; introduce Civs that are more natural transition paths for what already exists.
We can look at this geographically (what political entities have existed in the same area?) or meritocratically (Which Civs from Africa deserve Inclusion and how do they tie to what already exists?), or a mixture of both.
Additionally, the following criteria have to be met:
- Enough 'material' for a Unique military Unit (or potentially two in Modern)
- Enough 'material' for a Unique Improvement or Quarter
- Enough urban sites to provide a City List of at least 30 names.
- A viable World Wonder that can be linked to the Civilization.
East Africa
Aksum, an Abyssinian kingdom, has a geographical link to Nubia (Sudan), and Somalia, while its main ethnicity, the Amhara have a distinct straight line all the way from Aksum to Ethiopia via several Amhara kingdom such as Showa. This makes East Africa a fairly easy region to find lines for
There is a straight-up Abyssinian line which starts with Askum and ends in Ethiopia, where the identity of the Exploration Civ or Civs has quite a bit of leeway. Ethiopia proper, which is heavily hinted at in Askum's Civilopedia entry, is most likely planned at a certain point.
So that leaves the Exploration bit. There are a few options there:
One option is to not have a straight Ethiopian line at all, with the Exploration Civs between Askum and Ethiopia coming from outside of Abyssinia. This would allow for options such as Yemen, the Swahili, Somalia and Sudan to have representation.
The other is to specifically pick an Abyssian kingdom (such as Showa) or ethnicity (such as the Oromo) for the 'middle' portion of their path.
Or, you can look at a political entity such as the Adal Sultanate, which was ethnically Somali but geographically Abyssinian, which plugs the gap beautifully imo (this is why I prefer Adal over the more prominent and powerful Ajuraan, btw. The historic ties with Ethiopia are perfect for Civ7 imo).
Regardless, I personally would say that it's fine for Abyssinia to get two direct Civs, with the Exploration stage as a culturally Somali Civ.
Additionally, East Africa has a couple of other Civs in the area that are deserving of inclusion across all three ages:
Nubia, which existed in Civ6 and whose kit can be easily adapted for Civ7, as well as its successor kingdoms Alodia, Makuria and Darfur.
The Swahili, which are descendants of the Bantu, but were a powerful politity to the south of Somalia
Yemen and Oman, which are Arabic, true, but had a lot of influence over Ethiopia and the region.
In sum, I could image the *core Abyssinian line* as this:
View attachment 749319
while the overarching East African line could be something such as this:
View attachment 749321
While not geographically centered in Africa, Oman has a lot of influence over the region and could function as the alternative capstone Civ over Ethiopia. Madagascar can also be included in the above schedule but I do not know enough about them to know how exactly they tie in with the rest, nor what Age they should feature in.
Finally, Buganda can, due to its location on the Nile function as an end point for both the Askumite line AND its alternative East African line. Swahili is also tied to the Bantu kingdom of the South, which would allow for it to transition into the Zulu or Xhosa in Modern as well.
For leaders, this region lacks them completely, so I would like to see an Abyssinian leader down the line. There is a wide berth of good options: Makeda (the Queen of Sheba), Gudit, Ezana, Zara Yaqob, Menelik II and his wife Taytu Betul, Haile Selassie, etc. Options not from Abyssinia that would fit the region would include Muhammad Ali Pasha (annexed Sudan into modern Egypt), a Kushite monarch (Amanitore, Piye, Amanirenas), and Fumo Liongo, a legendary Swahili folk hero. Ibn Battuta can also function as a secondary or *tertiary* leader of this line, as he can technically lead the entire Islamic World. And that's just the ones I know about, I'm pretty sure Alexander Hetairoi is ready to fire off a few more names once this post goes live.
Southern & Central Africa:
This is the area I'm the least knowledgable about, so I will keep it as concise as I can. This area so far only contains Buganda. I don't mind this inclusion in itself, even if it doesn't carry the same gravitas as the Zulu or Ethopia.
The history of Central and Southern Africa is defined by an event called 'the Bantu Expansion', a speculated migration of the Bantu people who spread around before the game's Exploration Age. Many ethnicities in the area speak a Bantu-family language, which include the Swahili, Zulu, Kongolese, etc.
For the Civs, I think it's pretty clear where we start and whatwe work towards: we start with the Bantu, and work towards Buganda.
However, because there are so many Bantu ethnicities, I believe we can have a fully fledged Bantu line, starting with a Bantu Civ in Antiquity, the Swahili in Exploration and ending with Buganda in Modern. All three of these Civs fit the criteria, and they would *make sense* as being linked in a game where Spain can become France.
Antiquity Bantu would be based on the urbanised Sotho-Tswana people (as opposed to the pastoral Nguni people, which includes the Zulu and Xhosa) and can be called 'Sotho' or 'Tswana 'as such. Its associated Wonder would be an archaeological site predating Great Zimbabwe, such as Mapungubwe or Leopold's Kopje. Their city list would include associated towns and archaeological sites across RSA, leSotho, eSwatini, Namibia and boTswana. I envision them as a Quarter Civ, as opposed to an Improvement Civ, to really underline their urbanization.
Exploration Bantu has several potential faces: Kongo, the aforementioned Swahili or a kingdom related to the Shona people (which I'll list below as 'Shona', but the Civ can be called Zimbabwe, Mutapa or something else). Kongo would be a quarter Civ with the Mbanza taking centre stage. Swahili I also see as a quarter Civ with it being maritime, specifically. Shona I'm less certain about, largely due to my own lack of knowledge. Their city list would have its capital at Zimbabwe, and would include cites inside the present-day country of Zimbabwe and Zambia alongside those of the Mutapa, Rovzi and Khami empires.
Modern Bantu can lead into Buganda or the Nguni branch. AmaZulu and AmaXhosa are difficult Civs to include in Civ7 due to the Wonder restrictions, and the prime candidates for both the Zulu AND the Xhosa aren't particularly show-stopping. That said, one of these Civs *should* make it in based on merit (I'll list both below). The Zulu and Xhosa should both have an improvement if they're included. (their city lists is fairly easy too, the only real thing holding them back is the Wonder).
So in sum, I see Central and Southern Africa as a Bantu-driven affair:
View attachment 749322
Other ethnicities in the area, such as the San and Maasai are probably better left as independent powers. I also stumbled across a kingdom in Cameroon during my research, but I'm leaving it off for now. I don't really know enough about the region to go for two Antiquity Civs. I believe the other regions of Africa can provide better candidates for Antiquity and I don't oppose the idea of West Africa leading into Kongo and East Africa leading into Swahili.
For leaders: Shaka is the clear standout to me. As I've written in my schematic above, I really like the idea of a Shaka Leader (with the Impi as an ageless, self-upgrading Unique Unit only he can train) and a Xhosa Civ for variety, and hope it happens. The most prominent non-Shaka choices from this region are Ana Nzinga and Nelson Mandela, but there are a few Zulu, Xhosa and even Sotho kings that could be chosen as well. But let's not kid ourselves, the first leader from this region MUST be Shaka.
West-Africa:
West-Africa already has some things going for it. For starters, the Songhai exist. Secondly, two leaders are tied to the region: Amina (who is Songhai's associated leader) and Harriet who presumably had West-African heritage.
As we've already went over this part of Africa, I can simply be brief: This region should be structured similarly to West-Africa: one central line (this time based on Niger(ia) and its many ethnicities), with three alternative Civs (one in each Era) from the region.
Interestingly, the Mali empire already overlaps with the Songhai and its own predecessor, the Ghana empire, so I think it's valid for Mali to sit this one out. Adding the Civ to Exploration while the Songhai already exist over any other option in the region would be a bit of a waste of a slot.
I could imagine a 'Mali' line as starting with Ghana/Wagadu, then going through Songhai into the Anshanti empire, while there is also a *parallel* Nigerian line that starts with Ife, goes through Benin into Oyo. The Mali Line ties into North Africa, while the Nigerian is liked to Kongo and Buganda.
View attachment 749335
Some notes:
Benin is chosen for Exploration due to a lack of good wonder candidates from other Civs in the area, however they have a massive overlap with not only the Songhai, but also the other Nigerian Civs in Ife and Oyo. I'd rather have Kanem or Jolof take their place, but I failed to find a good Wonder for either of them.
Modern has several options such as Bornu, Sokoto and Dahomey. Dahomey was especially tempting for the Gbeto, but since Dahomey itself was mostly subservient to the Oyo, wouldn't it be better to just... have the Oyo with the Gbeto as one of their Unique Units? The alternative would be moving Dahomey to Exploration which isn't chronologically sound to me.
I feel like Songhai represents the Hausa well enough as is, and so I see no reason to add a separate Hausaland civ. Besides, most of these empires *are* multi-ethnic anyway, so I don't feel like we should pin ourselves down on distinct ethnic representation. Pick a worthy empire, and you'll inherently add Civs that many people can identify with.
The Osun Osogbo grove came up during research and looks *really* cool and unique, and might work as a wonder for Ife, which I imagine as having a pantheon focused + sciency undertone kit. Benin should be about building Fortifications, similar to Dai Viet and Normans, but with a focus on Production and/or Science. Wagadu rose to power based on its material wealth, so I wanted a Mine Wonder to underscore that. The Gold Mines of Bambouk work, as do the Salt mines of Awdaghost. Ashanti's Wonder is the Kumasi Fort which is now repurposed as a museum, which can be used to give them a distinctly militaristic tone.
The University of Sankoré can be an unassociated Wonder for the region.
West Africa technically doesn't need another leader because it already has Amina and Harriet, but if a third one is added, it should be one with a nod to the Mali empire: Sundiata or Mansa Musa. Yaa Assantewaa or Idia would also be top choices for me, but not with Amina already being in the game, chickens!
North Africa
Finally, North Africa, which is always tied to West Africa via trade, should largely focus on the Maghreb. This region should have no more than three specialized Civs, one for each age.
The Berbers and Tuareg that call it home should be used as the focal point for the Civ design, especially now that Civ7 has two Berber leaders (Ibn and Sayyida). Due to this, I don't feel like another North African leader needs to be added to the game.
As far as Civs are concerned, we already have Carthage, which I think works as a starting point. The Numidians which are currently an independent power are a polity that I believe is better off as a mod, rather than a full-fledged addition. Besides, they already provide the unique unit for Carthage...
The Abbasids and Ottomans however, do not suffice as representation for the region. The city of Carthage *was* located in Africa proper, while Baghdad and Constantinople are not.
As such, I believe the Exploration and Modern Civs from this region should lean into Berbers. I personally... don't mind a Berber Civ for Exploration (understatement. I've *designed* an Exploration Berber Civ months ago), which encompasses the Almoravids and Almohads. This Civ could then choose between Morocco and Ottomans in the Modern Age.
So to visualize it, I think it should look like this:
View attachment 749336
Notes:
This line-up represents all three countries of the Maghreb (Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco respectively), and by keeping the Berbers as a 'blob', you can also give them the Alhambra wonder, and reference al-Andalus that way. Aït Benhaddou is my back-up pick for the Berber wonder.
Designwise, I envision both Amazigh and Morocco as having a Cavalry unit for their UU. Morocco's should be a Meharist. Berbers I'm less sure about (maybe some sort of Tuareg cavalry? a Camel Archer? Maybe a Xebec if the Ottomans don't get it).
Amazigh should be a quarter Civ (they have several really good choices for Unique buildings, including the Agadir, a fortified Granary), while Morocco can have Kasbah's as an improvement.
I decided to not add a secondary Antiquity Civ because I feel like Wagadu in North Africa can carry some of the burden, as well as the Goths if they're added. If I did have a second pick, it would easily be the Tuareg, with the Tomb of Tin Hinan as their associated Wonder.
As stated above, this line needs no further leaders as it already has a dedicated one in Sayyida al-Hurra. *THAT* being said, Hannibal should be added, right? Like... come on.
~~~~~~
So to recap, Africa needs a lot of content added, and a lot of streamlining still. Probably more than what we will actually get. So, here are the additions I would propose, sorted via urgency:
MOST URGENT:
SOMEWHAT URGENT:
- Antiquity West-Africa & Modern West Africa: personal choices: Ghana & Ashanti
- Exploration East Africa & Modern East Africa: personal choices: Swahili & Ethiopia
- Antiquity & Exploration Bantu Civ, as a prelude to Buganda: Suggestions: Sotho & Shona
- New Leaders: Ethiopian leader (any gender, any time period), Hannibal and Shaka.
CAN WAIT (greatly appreciated if added)
- Marghrebian Civ that doesn't include the Abbasids or Ottomans: ie: Amazigh/Andalus (EXP) OR Morocco (MOD)
- Full Abyssinian line (potentially via Somalia)
- Full line for EITHER Mali OR Nigeria
Well that was a fun knot to untangle. Cannot wait to tackle all of America + the Caribbean in March.
- Full lines for BOTH Mali *and* Nigeria
- Missing Maghrebian Civ (whoever isn't added above)
- Xhosa or Zulu Civ
- Malagasy Civ (Exploration or Modern)
- Return of Nubia and Kongo as playable Civs
- The addition of Mansa Musa or Sundiata Keita as a playable leader
- The addition of a second Southern African leader (after Shaka)
- Potential new Civs: Jolof, Kanem/Bornu, Sokoto, Darfur, etc...
Ghost Enthusiast designed a Bantu civ here, and I was quite impressed with the amount of research put into it: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...iv-vii-mechanics.691486/page-11#post-16860359
TheGhostEnthusiast
King
moondog385
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Could you point me to where you found the information for this? I don't doubt you, just interested on reading up myself.
Bonyduck Campersang
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The Ajuraan Imamate is extremely obscure, we know next to nothing about them
Really? I thought most of Somalia's architectural legacy was contributed by them? They also traded and interacted with the Ming to the east, and the Portuguese to the west.
Still, I think it's just as likely that they call the civ Somalia, and combine aspects of all the different sultanates of that time period: Adal, Ajuran, Mogadishu etc.
Bonyduck Campersang
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It is very strange. The Wikipedia page for them is very long and detailed, but if you read one of the sources referenced by the article itself, it's about how little we know about the Ajuraan, to the point that the writer raises the question of whether they existed at all, even though he argues that they did.
The Ajuraan state left no writings or recordings or anything. Even the attribution of the famous pillar tombs is questionable. The primary evidence of its existence comes from Somali legends, which are obviously not completely trustworthy, especially since the Ajuraan are depicted as an evil and tyrannical rulers who are in the end toppled by a hero, and many of the acts attributed to the Ajuraan are obviously exaggerated (though we can't say they're outright fictious).
I know this because I have been trying to make a Civ5 mod for the Ajuraan. I couldn't find anything for a leader, not even a throwaway mention of who founded the dynasty. In the end, I only got two names: one is Sarjelle, who is only known from his daughter being supposed to have married the progenitor of a prominent Somali clans, the other is Umar, who is mentioned as an evil sorcerer-king who is killed by the hero of another story.
Bonyduck Campersang
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The book I am referring to is The Shaping of Somali Society - Reconstructing the History
of a Pastoral People, 1600-1900 by Lee V. Cassanelli.
Still, I think there is enough material for a civ design. After all, I was able to make two Civ5 designs just off the Wikipedia article. But since there are other Somali states we know more about, those might be better options
That's fair. I haven't found anything about potential leaders either. But since that's not a concern for Civ 7 I wasn't worried about finding that information.
How would you feel if they just called the civ "Somalia" and incorporated all the other states including Adal and the Mogadishu Sultanate?
Bonyduck Campersang
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I don't know, I don't think I have any strong feelings either way.
Lonecat Nekophrodite
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So Modern Italy is Savoys. and what should be their default capitol? Roma (shared with Romans, well actually House of Savoys relocated their seats there due to historical significance. a move that tel lthe world They're successors to Roman Empire).
mm why Medieval France should be Normans? historically Government of Paris NEVER trust them much, and after Duke William II won the English Throne, this duchy political inclinations bend more towards London and against Paris. Hundread Years Wars is a clear proof that Normans were actually Franchophobe--Normandy quickly sided with England and provided a valuable continental footholds. Also the last Anglophille domain to fall to France under Charles VII (and Jean Bureau's field culverins, likely being the first trunioned field cannons.)
Normans, and French (or Franks) are quite different to the core, particularly legal systems. French (of Paris) prefers Roman legal systems (even imported copies of Corpus Juris Civilis, which made themselves a proponent or founder of Civil Law system), while Normans never use Roman style laws, even invented Common Law System to compete against. (it is possible that Norman judicators never read, or disregard CJC completely).
mm why Medieval France should be Normans? historically Government of Paris NEVER trust them much, and after Duke William II won the English Throne, this duchy political inclinations bend more towards London and against Paris. Hundread Years Wars is a clear proof that Normans were actually Franchophobe--Normandy quickly sided with England and provided a valuable continental footholds. Also the last Anglophille domain to fall to France under Charles VII (and Jean Bureau's field culverins, likely being the first trunioned field cannons.)
Normans, and French (or Franks) are quite different to the core, particularly legal systems. French (of Paris) prefers Roman legal systems (even imported copies of Corpus Juris Civilis, which made themselves a proponent or founder of Civil Law system), while Normans never use Roman style laws, even invented Common Law System to compete against. (it is possible that Norman judicators never read, or disregard CJC completely).
Whether you call the Modern civ Italy, Savoy, or Piedmont/Sardinia, the capital could just be Turin.
