Filling in the gaps - Charting the optimal Civ Switches

[moondog385]

Personally, I would go Kushans or Scythia. Scythia is actually a good choice in general - the Bulgars were Turkic steppe nomads from the Volga, as were the Scythians.

Guaraní works for me. I believe Paraguay embraced the Guaraní language as their own, which would make them valid for modern. I don't know enough about the Mapuche to commit them to Modern - their Civ6 kit appears better suited for Exploration tbh.

I like the idea of Maratha! Maurya => Gurjara => Maratha covers the northern half of India quite nicely. It does raise the question of what we do with the Chola though. If we hypothetically add Gurjara and Maratha, do we then create a three act Tamil line with a separate leader?

Anacaona works more as a Caribbean leader than as a NA leader. I was thinking more in line with Molly Brant, JIgonsahse, Osh-Tisch or Sacagawea. Or a man with a less militant profile, so that our axe-wielding friend stands out a bit more.

NA tribes are tricky to deal with because of their (warranted) extreme caution. You'd have to check if they would want to appear and possibly share a path with the Mississipians or Shawnee And whether they're okay with voicing a leader if possible. and then ALSO check what name they go by, and what parts of their culture should be represented in the game.

With no restrictions I think the best possible lines would be Pueblo => Hopi/Zuni/Apache => Navajo, or Huron => Iroquois => Cree, with also adding Cherokee or Lakota as an alternative to Tecumseh. Realistically, we probably get the Cherokee to complete the Tecumseh line, and that'll be all of NA done for the entire cycle.

I like those NA tribe paths, but I fear you're right that we may only get one more which would be a real shame. So many interesting cultures there. As for Chola, I think that could just be one of the alternatives for that region, if the player's inclined to go for maritime gameplay. I also would like to see Bengal in the game and I wouldn't expect that to be tied to a three-act path either.

 

[notNamed]

Himiko:
Let me be very clear here: Japan SHOULD have three incarnations per Era, just like China and India. It doesn't matter whether the Antiquity incarnation is Heian Japan or Yamatai - it should be the ONLY Civ Himiko can lead in Antiquity.

In Exploration, one of the Shogunates (ideally Edo or Kamakura) should be added to give Himiko her default option, while she obviously defaults to Meiji in Modern.
As for the alternatives: I believe Majapahit and Siam are the most complimentary options in the region (i would NEVER be daft enough to assign Himiko to Korea OR China.)

Korea would indeed be an oof, but China?
Here's a Japanese article about the hands-on event starring Himiko:
指導者は19人の中から選ぶことができ、その中には日本の卑弥呼の姿がありました。今回は卑弥呼におすすめとなっていた「ミシシッピ」文明でスタート。ちなみにもうひとつのおすすめ文明はクメールだったのですが、「漢」ではなく「クメール」と「ミシシッピ」がおすすめになっているのかは謎です。
You can select from 19 leaders and Japan's Himiko makes an appearance among them. We started with the Himiko-suggested "Mississipian" civilisation. By the way, the other suggested civilisation was "Khmer" and we are still puzzled why they suggest "Khmer" and "Misssissipians" instead of "Han".

時間を溶かす覚悟は決めたか？ 待望の『シドマイヤーズ シヴィライゼーション VII』ハンズオン。「時代」システムでメリハリのついたゲームプレイを先行体験 | Game*Spark - 国内・海外ゲーム情報サイト

シンガポールで行われた本作のメディア向けイベントに参加し、先行プレイで一足早く体験してきました。

www.gamespark.jp

Similarly on the Chinese side, I can't speak in absolutes but BiliBili was full of people playing the Chinese path as either Confucius or Himiko.

She's really not that ridiculous of a second option for Han (definitely less so than tying her to Khmer). That is, at least within the context of the game's original roster.

 

[Archanist]

Ha, I suppose it's true. Spanish Catholicism does follow a few patterns.

It's a welcome suggestion. I'm not versed in FIlipino history, and I think it's more important to introduce a Filipino Civ for Rizal's journey through history, than which incarnation it exactly is, and what era they're featured in.

As long as they can make an interesting Civ and don't reduce him to like... token polynesian understudy status, despite not being polynesian.

Yeah, him unlocking Hawaii was a wild design choice and I'm still wondering why they did that. Spain not being connected to Rizal is even weirder.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Korea would indeed be an oof, but China?
Here's a Japanese article about the hands-on event starring Himiko:
指導者は19人の中から選ぶことができ、その中には日本の卑弥呼の姿がありました。今回は卑弥呼におすすめとなっていた「ミシシッピ」文明でスタート。ちなみにもうひとつのおすすめ文明はクメールだったのですが、「漢」ではなく「クメール」と「ミシシッピ」がおすすめになっているのかは謎です。
You can select from 19 leaders and Japan's Himiko makes an appearance among them. We started with the Himiko-suggested "Mississipian" civilisation. By the way, the other suggested civilisation was "Khmer" and we are still puzzled why they suggest "Khmer" and "Misssissipians" instead of "Han".

時間を溶かす覚悟は決めたか？ 待望の『シドマイヤーズ シヴィライゼーション VII』ハンズオン。「時代」システムでメリハリのついたゲームプレイを先行体験 | Game*Spark - 国内・海外ゲーム情報サイト

シンガポールで行われた本作のメディア向けイベントに参加し、先行プレイで一足早く体験してきました。

www.gamespark.jp

Similarly on the Chinese side, I can't speak in absolutes but BiliBili was full of people playing the Chinese path as either Confucius or Himiko.

She's really not that ridiculous of a second option for Han (definitely less so than tying her to Khmer). That is, at least within the context of the game's original roster.

I do not know how receptive the Chinese or Japanese are to each other, so I would not make such decisions without enough information. I am aware of the animosity between the Japanese and Koreans though.

If the Chinese don't have problem being represented by a Japanese queen, then that's one half of the equation. If the Japananese also don't have an issue with it, then sure, encourage some sino-japanese cross-pollination.

What I think is more important right now is to give Himiko a Japanese option in Antiquity and Exploration so that the players who pick her can have a historically accurate journey. One of the main reasons to plug the gaps is to make Civ Switching more grounded in history and appealing to the sceptics. Giving every already existing leader a believable journey through time tethered to their native civ is probably the most realistic way to accomplish that.

Yeah, him unlocking Hawaii was a wild design choice and I'm still wondering why they did that. Spain not being connected to Rizal is even weirder.

I don't know about Spain...? Spain KILLED Rizal and he opposed them for most of his life. It would be like having Joan of Arc lead the English.

Whatever the most historical path for the Philippines is that doesn't involve Spain is probably what Rizal should be unlocking. We need a naval themed Antiquity Civ in SEA to accomodate that. Maybe the Champa? (KHMER could have been that Civ since they had an extensive navy, but Khmer is instrinsically land-based in Civilization).

How would you solve it, then?

 

[Ryansinbela]

Hawaii makes sense from a thematic choice but I’d prefer more SEA options (including the Philippines)

 

[Archanist]

I don't know about Spain...? Spain KILLED Rizal and he opposed them for most of his life. It would be like having Joan of Arc lead the English.

Whatever the most historical path for the Philippines is that doesn't involve Spain is probably what Rizal should be unlocking. We need a naval themed Antiquity Civ in SEA to accomodate that. Maybe the Champa? (KHMER could have been that Civ since they had an extensive navy, but Khmer is instrinsically land-based in Civilization).

How would you solve it, then?

About Spain, I meant it with the base game. While Rizal did oppose colonialism, he did advocate for equality under Spanish rule, but ultimately he did want independence.

With your framework, Rizal can go through the Majapahit route. Some of Rizal's ancestors also did come from China, so having a path from Han and Ming is a possible solution. Should the Chinese path be too populated, a land based SEA or Indian to SEA route can work as well.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Something like this, then?

I think that would work as a goal. Fingers crossed Firaxis add someone for Hawaii soon.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Either Kamehameha or Liliuokalani please

 

[socratic]

We need a naval themed Antiquity Civ in SEA to accomodate that.

It’s bad luck how SEA is practically drowning in civs right now, but doesn’t have a solid thorough line for any of them. I do think we should get a either a Modern Vietnam or Exploration Siam w/ a Thai leader eventually.

Hawaii could have also done with having a Modern age counterpart considering they only lost independence well into the 19th century

 

[moondog385]

It’s bad luck how SEA is practically drowning in civs right now, but doesn’t have a solid thorough line for any of them. I do think we should get a either a Modern Vietnam or Exploration Siam w/ a Thai leader eventually.

Hawaii could have also done with having a Modern age counterpart considering they only lost independence well into the 19th century

I think the current regional throughline of Khmer - Dai Viet - Siam works well enough but I wouldn't mind getting Burma and/or Champa much further down the line. For now, other regions need filling out.

Polynesia can be represented by Antiquity Tonga and Modern Maori.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't know about Spain...? Spain KILLED Rizal and he opposed them for most of his life. It would be like having Joan of Arc lead the English.

Whatever the most historical path for the Philippines is that doesn't involve Spain is probably what Rizal should be unlocking. We need a naval themed Antiquity Civ in SEA to accomodate that. Maybe the Champa? (KHMER could have been that Civ since they had an extensive navy, but Khmer is instrinsically land-based in Civilization).

How would you solve it, then?

Regardless, Philippines history is tied to Spain being a colony for hundreds of years, so it does make perfect sense for possibly Spain>Philippines as much as it does with other Eastern Asian civs.

 

[Xandinho]

Personally, I find the Kingdom of Tondo more interesting than modern-day Philippines, so I would go with it if I were asked about Filipino representation in the game.

But if they're overcrowding Southeast Asia with civs, I agree that the transitions at least need to make more sense — even if the ones here are better than in some other regions. Majapahit really needs a proper successor, because I hate that its unlock option is Meiji Japan. I think Brunei is an excellent candidate, or at the very least modern Indonesia.

I'm also in favor of a Thai civ in the Exploration Age to give Siam a more fitting predecessor. Finally, I really hope they add Champa in the Antiquity Age someday — not only would it be perfect for the era-transition mechanic, but I also don't want Khmer to be the sole root civilization of Southeast Asia every time I want to play a regional-themed game.

As for the most appropriate successor to the Inca, without a doubt the best option would be Peru, but I don't see them adding it. The second-best option is Bolivia, which also seems quite unlikely. So I’ll go with the third-best option: Colombia — and I think it's actually quite likely, considering that Haciendas aren’t part of the Mexican design, and I believe they’ll once again be given to (Gran) Colombia when it returns.

I really hope they don’t do Inca > Brazil, because that makes no historical sense — and might even be worse than Inca > Mexico. If Brazil is added, I hope it comes with a predecessor that makes sense, like Portugal, the Guarani, or the Tupi.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Based on the Latin American discourse: something like this?

The line that leads via Spain into Gran Colombia is represented by Bolivar
The line that leads via Spain into Mexico is represented by Isabella.
The line that leads via Inca (+ Mapuche/Muisca) into Gran Colombia is represented by Pachacuti


If we do it this way, we'd need 2-3 more leaders: for this part of the world:

• A leader for the indigenous mesoamerican tribes into Mexico
• a leader for the hypothetical Brazillian line via Portugal.
• (optional: a leader for the hypothetical Brazillian line via the Guaraní)

Not taking into account a Caribbean leader that could also lead into Mexico or Gran Colombia due to geographical proximity (less of a fan for this btw.)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As for the most appropriate successor to the Inca, without a doubt the best option would be Peru, but I don't see them adding it. The second-best option is Bolivia, which also seems quite unlikely. So I’ll go with the third-best option: Colombia — and I think it's actually quite likely, considering that Haciendas aren’t part of the Mexican design, and I believe they’ll once again be given to (Gran) Colombia when it returns.

I really hope they don’t do Inca > Brazil, because that makes no historical sense — and might even be worse than Inca > Mexico. If Brazil is added, I hope it comes with a predecessor that makes sense, like Portugal, the Guarani, or the Tupi.

Considering the possibility that Mapuche could end up in Modern, I wonder if Inca>Mapuche would work?

 

[Ryansinbela]

Mapuche would definitely be Exploration

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Mapuche would definitely be Exploration

Considering the Mapuche were still resisting conquest by the late 19th century I think there's always a possibility of them being Modern. It definitely depends on what the rest of South America will look like. If Argentina appears in Modern, then I could see them fitting into Exploration more.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Mapuche would definitely be Exploration

I agree with this. Firaxis would not pass the opportunity to put them in the same Age as Spain.

 

[Xandinho]

Speaking of filling gaps, I really hope they fix the uninteresting mess that is the current set of transitions within the African continent. Seriously — what do Aksum, Songhai, and Buganda have in common besides 'oh, they’re from the same continent'?

It would be fantastic if they released a civ pack specifically aimed at fixing this, and here’s what I’d suggest:

Kilwa (exploration): serves as a bridge between Aksum and Buganda. Not perfect, but definitely works better than Songhai.
Ethiopia (modern): an alternative transition from Kilwa and a direct connection of Aksum.
Ghana (antiquity): a proper predecessor to Songhai.
Sokoto (modern): a fitting successor to Songhai.

That way, we’d have two African historical paths that actually make sense:
Ghana > Songhai > Sokoto
Aksum > Kilwa > Buganda, Ethiopia
They should also add leaders relevant to those paths. I’d suggest Mansa Musa and an Ethiopian leader.
Somalia could also come later as an alternative to Kilwa, offering a stronger connection to Ethiopia.

Finally, they could expand into other parts of Africa in the future — for instance, the southern region — with a historical path like:
Bantu > Mutapa > Zulu

And if Southeast and South Asia are getting so many wonders, it would be great if Africa received some love in that area too, with a few disassociated wonders like: the Great Sphinx of Giza, the Great Mosque of Djenné, and the Church of Saint George of Lalibela.

Not taking into account a Caribbean leader that could also lead into Mexico or Gran Colombia due to geographical proximity (less of a fan for this btw.)

Regarding a Caribbean leader, I’d suggest Anacaona. She wouldn’t be linked to any other civ except the Taíno, though. For a modern Caribbean civ, I’d go with Haiti.
Unfortunately, Haiti suffers from having many of its thematic niches already filled:
Revolutionary civ: Mexico
Revolutionary Latin leader: Simón Bolívar

Considering the possibility that Mapuche could end up in Modern, I wonder if Inca>Mapuche would work?

It could still work, but thematically they fit better in the Exploration Age — they even interacted with the Inca, for that matter.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Speaking of filling gaps, I really hope they fix the uninteresting mess that is the current set of transitions within the African continent. Seriously — what do Aksum, Songhai, and Buganda have in common besides 'oh, they’re from the same continent'?

Their typical approach of "cast as wide a net with the restricted roster options we have, and deal with it later".

I like the suggestions. Generally, we need a West African Civ to bookend Amina & Songhai with, an East African continuation for Aksum, and then a Central African one for Buganda. (or Buganda can be tacked onto the East-African/Nilotic line but I don't like that very much. (B)uganda makes more sense as being affiliated with a Kongolese line, rather than an Ethiopian one. Kilwa is a better fit thematically imo.

I don't believe the Hausa necessarily have to be added to Exploration just for Amina's sake. Realistically, the West-African line later inlcudes a Nigerian tribe or kingdom in Antiquity or Modern for her to lead, while Songhai is retained as her default option in Exploration. Hausa was widely spoken in the Songhai empire as well, so it's not that much of a stretch - it'd be like having Machiavelli lead the HRE over Tuscany. Weird, but acceptable within roster limitations.

Ideally, of course, well... we get two lines in West Africa, one for Nigeria, and one for Ghana/Mali.

Finally, you forgot North-Africa . But I suppose it's just as 'easy' as Carthage => Berbers => Morocco, with Battuta as the leader, I guess.

Regarding a Caribbean leader, I’d suggest Anacaona. She wouldn’t be linked to any other civ except the Taíno, though. For a modern Caribbean civ, I’d go with Haiti.
Unfortunately, Haiti suffers from having many of its thematic niches already filled:
Revolutionary civ: Mexico
Revolutionary Latin leader: Simón Bolívar

I don't think think anyone here would suggest anyone other than Anacaona, except for the few vocal Toussaint l'Ouverture fanboys. Well, Ed would suggest otherwise because Blackbeard is in the data files, whose choice I not dislike, but I don't particularly approve of the implication of having a Pirate Republic Civ before (or worse, instead of) the Taino.

 

[Ryansinbela]

What if Taino was planned in secret