Filling in the gaps - Charting the optimal Civ Switches

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I firmly believe that if the devs choose to represent the Caribbean, they add the Taino and have it be in Antiquity. This is really pushing the boundaries of Antiquity, but Exploration is already teeming with island hopping civs. We don’t need another one. A Taino > Spain > Cuba/Mexico/America/Whatever line is still pretty historically.

Also they should choose the Taino because they’re the indigenous group with the most cultural impact in modern Caribbean countries. (And also because I’m biased and want the closet we can get to a Puerto Rican civ in the game)

I would expect "island hopping" to be the perfect thing for Exploration.
I like the idea of Arawak>Taino>Haiti for the Caribbean, with the Arawak branching into a South America path too.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Haiti would be such a good fit for this game!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Haiti would be such a good fit for this game!

Even if they don't officially get a leader, Harriet Tubman is still a good associated one along with Simon Bolivar, and "insert any French leader. "
The Citadelle Laferrière would have to be the associated wonder too.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I would expect "island hopping" to be the perfect thing for Exploration.
I like the idea of Arawak>Taino>Haiti for the Caribbean, with the Arawak branching into a South America path too.

Don't forget that all of these would need a World Wonder at a minimum.

Haiti's should be fairly easy (Palais Sans-Souci), but Taino's idk what that one's going to be. A really big batey? I'm notMo sure if you can even invent one for the Arawaks.

What I think is more likely is that the Taino will be shoved into Antiquity for being the first Civ that fits Civ7's model in that region.

 

[Xandinho]

For the Taíno, it’s quite easy — they can use the Caguana Ceremonial Ball Courts. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything comparable for the Arawak, but I still believe they could use one of their important villages as an option.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

What I think is more likely is that the Taino will be shoved into Antiquity for being the first Civ that fits Civ7's model in that region.

Maybe. But if the other choice for that region is the Pirate Republic, I'd rather the Taino.

 

[Xandinho]

They could push the Taíno into Antiquity for gameplay reasons, since there’s no better option, place the Pirates in the Exploration, and finally Haiti in Modern. Ok, I can already see that happening. And I almost forgot, Cuba in the fourth era.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Maybe. But if the other choice for that region is the Pirate Republic, I'd rather the Taino.

Why not both

 

[Lord Lakely]

I've done a bit of research on the america's now

Taino definitely works both an Antiquity and Exploration culture, if you're willing to accept that their Wonder is just a larger Batey.

Antiquity cultures are generally difficult to find in the America's as most indiginous sites (World Wonders) correspond to the high middle ages. If we use Mississipians and Shawnee as a template, you can move some of the medieval cultures 'down' to Antiquity, just to ensure you have a fuller set of Civs.

Ancestral Pueblo are a slam dunk. I cannot imagine skipping them for any reason if you want a fully rounded NA line-up. Inuit => Haida => Tlingit could work as a line with sufficient research. All three have landmarks that can be turned into (admittedly pretty bad) World Wonders.

Africa is... lowkey a disaster? West and East Africa are doable, but South Africa, man. It really just is Great Zimbabwe (Shona) and Mapungubwe Hill (Bantu). The Maasai, Zulu and Xhosa don't have a clear wonder. So any line that goes through the south of africa automatically has to go towards Buganda or the Boers/RSA, and I don't know how I feel about that.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Maybe a Kraal for the Zulu

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

maybe instead of Associated Wonders, some civs could have an additional unique component to compensate for it? not that Associated Wonders are so hot anyway

ideally what one would want is that the devs completely disassociate Wonders from civs in a future update

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

ideally what one would want is that the devs completely disassociate Wonders from civs in a future update

PLEASE. I think associated Wonders should have been a flavor bonus for certain civs with good choices. As the system is currently it handicaps or outright prevents so many Civs that would only be possible in Civ VII.

 

[Xandinho]

I support the idea that not every civilization should have an associated wonder. After all, wonders are, at least in theory, monumental constructions that mark their builders through greatness, beauty, or symbolism. In reality, not all cultures built monumental structures or were great builders by any measure. Many instead stood out in other areas such as warfare, trade, or culture. Therefore, civilizations without an associated wonder could instead receive another bonus to compensate for this.

However, if the developers keep forcing wonders onto every civilization, we’ll end up with things that are not particularly “wonderful” in many cases. For example, the Zulu could have a Kraal, which is probably the best possible option for them. For the Bantu (who I actually believe should be a mandatory inclusion, since they are a perfect starting point for many other African civilizations), I'd suggest Thimlich Ohinga, a type of fortified building that seems to be historically linked to them. Honestly, I don’t think it’s any worse than a Kraal. Finally, I'd assign the Great Zimbabwe to the Mutapa.

So, for me, the historical progression in South Africa would look like this: Bantu > Mutapa > Zulu.

Additionally, I'd place the Kingdom of Kongo in the Exploration Age as the cultural alternative to the commercial Mutapa. Kongo could have Kulumbimbi as its associated wonder, one of the first Catholic churches in sub-Saharan Africa, which would fit perfectly into the theme of religion during the Exploration.

 

[socratic]

Speaking of Africa, I’m certain we will an Ethiopia line that either goes
Aksum > Zagwe Ethiopia > Abyssinia/Ethiopian Empire or Aksum > Swahili > Ethiopia.
I’m curious to see what they’ll do with West Africa. Songhai desperately needs a predecessor. Ghana is the most likely option and while it is a Civ I’ve wanted for a while, I think Amina deserves her home civ. She historically led Zazzau, a city-state. Zazzau was one of many prominent Hausa city states, so I think we can take a page from Greece and Maya and roll them all together into a singular “Hausa” civ. Songhai also has the problem of having a very direct continuation. The best and most capable of making into a Civ is Sokoto. Sokoto is a somewhat awkward continuation on its own. Its imperial base was far from the Ghana and Songhai heartland. Butttt it was historically ruled (in part) by the Hausa. I think a Hausa > Songhai > Sokoto track feels far more cohesive and aligns with the history of the Hausa/Nigeria really well. Ideally, we have multiple West African civs for each age. Ghana, a Berber civ, and Mali all work as viable alternatives. Mansa Musa also has just about the same likelihood of returning as Alexander does imo so multiple West African civs will be needed

My ideal west africa would be:
Amina line: Hausa > Songhai > Sokoto

Mansa Musa line: Ghana > Songhai/Berbers > Sokoto/Morocco

 

[Lord Lakely]

I don't think we're going to get a three stage line for Ethiopia, but a two stage one is definitely on the table I think.

East Africa is fairly easy: Aksum, Buganda, Nubia, Swahili and a Second Ethiopia of some kind, and then it's just a question whether you add one of the medieval Sudanese or Somali powers, or tether the region to Yemen and Oman.

 

[Lord Lakely]

However, if the developers keep forcing wonders onto every civilization, we’ll end up with things that are not particularly “wonderful” in many cases. For example, the Zulu could have a Kraal, which is probably the best possible option for them. For the Bantu (who I actually believe should be a mandatory inclusion, since they are a perfect starting point for many other African civilizations), I'd suggest Thimlich Ohinga, a type of fortified building that seems to be historically linked to them. Honestly, I don’t think it’s any worse than a Kraal. Finally, I'd assign the Great Zimbabwe to the Mutapa.

Some of the wonders are already not wonderful. Hawaii's is a lonely straw hut next to some small carved wooden poles. Most World Wonders in Africa, Polynesia and North America will sadly have to default towards a 'larger' version of what would be their unique Infrastructure.

The only true exceptions are the mound building civs (Mississipians but also the Adena whom i've written down as a culture of interest, and the Pueblo who have several really good choices.)

I do find it easy to work my way via the World Wonder route into some of the Civs for those regions. Wherever there's a UNESCO world heritage site, there usually is a culture with enough archaelogical evidence to support a Civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't think we're going to get a three stage line for Ethiopia, but a two stage one is definitely on the table I think.

As much as I'd like it, only for the possibility to get Rock-Hewn churches again as both a unique infrastructure and world wonder, I think Exploration Somalia is more likely for that region as a bridge from Aksum to modern Ethiopian Empire.

 

[Phrozen]

Outside of the SW it will be pretty hard to get wonders for other tribes.

Some possibilities:

Salish:
Ozette Village. More a wonder for its archaeological value as it is the PNW version of Pompeii.
Old Man House. Largest long house in the PNW. Has culturally unique gambrel style roof.

Tlingit:
Chief Shakes House. Historical family long house for Tlingit royalty

 

[Lord Lakely]

I've noted down the following wonders for NA:

so yeah, it can definitely be done, and Inuit => Haida => Tlingit can definitely work as a line. (Haven't researched the Salish.)

Southern Africa is still bad though. Bantu and Shona/Zimbabwe can be added, they have a potential wonder each. But the Modern Civ is still difficult. You can potentially do Mandela's birthplace (Qunu) for Xhosa and the Bulawayo Kraal for Zulu but both of those are questionable in terms of Wonder status. The monument that could pass the most as a Modern Wonder for the Zulu or Xhosa is Maropeng, the visitor's centre to the Cradle of Humankind, but that structure was opened in 2005, which is too recent.

Most South-African structures are out of the question anyway. The Voortrekker Monument (a viable Modern Wonder) cannot be assigned to the Zulu, that makes no sense whatsoever. You'd have to call the Civ 'South Africa'.

The rest of Africa is fine if you just go by the rest of the World Heritage Sites.

 

[Archanist]

I've noted down the following wonders for NA:

View attachment 740906

so yeah, it can definitely be done, and Inuit => Haida => Tlingit can definitely work as a line. (Haven't researched the Salish.)

Southern Africa is still bad though. Bantu and Shona/Zimbabwe can be added, they have a potential wonder each. But the Modern Civ is still difficult. You can potentially do Mandela's birthplace (Qunu) for Xhosa and the Bulawayo Kraal for Zulu but both of those are questionable in terms of Wonder status. The monument that could pass the most as a Modern Wonder for the Zulu or Xhosa is Maropeng, the visitor's centre to the Cradle of Humankind, but that structure was opened in 2005, which is too recent.

Most South-African structures are out of the question anyway. The Voortrekker Monument (a viable Modern Wonder) cannot be assigned to the Zulu, that makes no sense whatsoever. You'd have to call the Civ 'South Africa'.

The rest of Africa is fine if you just go by the rest of the World Heritage Sites.

I think the Great Trail could be a good wonder for the Iroquois, even if it isn't a building. It's still infrastructure, and can even thematically offer boosts to roads/railroads or city connections.