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Final Fixes Reborn

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Ronkhar, Apr 17, 2013.

  1. BanTingyun

    BanTingyun Chieftain

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    Reports on my testing of the hippus (and some frozen issues that came up):

    1) The civilpedia text says that the hippus unique jousting tilt replacement "field of the horselords" trains units up to double the xp of the jousting tilt, however, actual numbers are 20xp vs 16xp, a much smaller difference. Perhaps sometime after the civilpedia text was written, the jousting tilt was buffed, but the hippus UB was forgotten to be given a similar buff? Maybe the hippus one would be raised to 32xp? However, the training building for other unit types, training yard and archery range, max out at 10 xp, so perhaps better to lower the jousting tilt (though the tilt comes much later in the tech tree than the infantry and archery ones, so its advantage is probably justified).

    2) The Hippus are one of a small group of civs blocked from both the cannon and the aquebus units, rendering gunpowder useless to them (ships being of very little value). For some civs the reason is obvious (ie, dark elves), for others, somewhat justified (ie, the calabim may be afraid of the massed common man kind of army that making use of firearms entails, and stick to the more reactionary feudal systems), but for the Hippus I think it is unpersuasive on both game mechanics and thematic grounds. First, as a matter of game mechanics, the hippus don't have a great deal of uniqueness to their army options, having only a single unique unit, a replacement to the mercenary. Thus it seems harsh to block them from a base unit, when other civs have a great many more unique units and still get access. For thematic reasons, there seems to be little reason the hippus would not exploit every opportunity to equip such an army--they are more of a common-man friendly military force from my reading of the lore. Moreover, there is nothing inherently in conflict with the horse nomad theme and gunpowder (the Mongols being early in the use of gunpowder in combat, the Qing dynasty founding Manchus making good use of cannons, etc)

    3) If an additional unique unit were desired, I think the hippus could really use a medium cavalry unique unit added at stirrups tech (alongside the horse archer unit). For a horsemen based race, it is surprising that their lineup is no more extensive than your average ffh civ, and to have only light (horse archers) and heavy (knights) cavalry seems like something is missing. At any rate, they could really use a unique unit, and another unit with a diverse skillset complementing those two units (and the war chariots) with amother niche, probably similar to the horseman unit but slightly higher stats, would really help round out their ability to field a cavalry dominant army. Maybe wih a graphic similar to the mounted mercenary, but enough strength to be worthwhile alongside horse archers. Also, on big maps where the knight national unit limit really caps things, it would prevent the feeling that they have basically become an all horse acher cavalry (horse archery never being so dominant in their theme to justify entirely suplanting all other types of cavalry).

    4) I don't see the need to block the alchemists lab. Blocking the artisan's workshop makes sense, given their warlike nature, but the alchemist lab is denying them a +10 percent research bonus that every other civ mostly gets, which seems overly harsh, especially considering their lineup of unique buildings is very short (just the one jousting tilt replacement).

    5) If it is possible in the code to give a civ a second tier starting technology instead of a first, I'd recomend removing agriculture and giving them animal husbandry. True, modern day historians recognize that pastoral nomadism is a later stage developing out of agrarian societies, but under the assumption that much was forgotten during the age of ice, I'd say have them forget how to farm but remember how to build pastures for their horses.

    6) Fiacra the North Wind is 4/5 +2 cold, while the Aquilan (knight replacements for the frozen) are 7/5 +2 cold +2 lightning +1 additional cold from ice demon promotion and can use bronze, iron, or mithril weapons, but otherwise identical in abilities. More importantly, they are much, much better than the knights they replace. This raises several issues.

    a) The Aquilan (12/10 with bonuses) is overpowered versus the knights (11/9) it replaces with the additional cold from ice demon, it is 1 more attack and defense, it has spells from channeling 2, it calls blizzards, it starts with ice 1, it withers its target, it is immune to unholy and cold damage, and it FLIES--and it costs 30 less to build than a knight.Meaning the Frozen high end cavalry units makes the hippus high end cavalry unit look like a total loser.

    b) It is only a single unit graphic, so not a massed army, and yet it makes Fiacra, Mulcarn's favorite and presumably of the same race, look like a complete weakling, when it should be the most powerful representative of its race.

    Suggestions: Move Fiacra to later in the tech tree, and make slightly more powerful than the Aquilan, or at least closer in power. And if possible make the Aquilan have multiple unit graphics, meaning it is a massed unit justifying its strength.

    More importantly, nerf the Aquilan heavily. At the least, take away its ability to use metal weapons, as I can see no justfication for that use. Also, probably eliminate its +2 lightning ability and add 2 to its base abilities (Fiacra doesn't use lightning bonuses), and pull off the ice demon promotion (presumably it isn't one, or else Fiacra should have that), and block its ability to automatically gain ice demon from being frozen civ (if that is possible, if not, reduce its cold bonus to 1), which would subtract 3 from its strength if we assume iron weapons and bring it to 2 under a knight at iron weapons.

    Which is really the minimum nerf needed, and probably more would be justified. By comparison, the doviolo and dwarven cavalry replacements trade 1 mobility in exchange for +1 to their attack and defense. To justify that long list of promotions, powers, and flying the Aquilan gets, a -2 strength from a normal knight seems the minimum.

    BTW, this problem occurs elsewhere in the frozen troop roster, with the magic combat bonuses making them universally more powerful. Ice golems are 6/8 with bonuses compared to 5/6 longbowmen. Perhaps their inability to enter warm terrain should be considered as making up for it, but since they are primarilly defensive units, and the frozen spread cold terrain through conquest, really they just have a much better city defender. The winter wolf is strength 5 with its cold boost and ice demon factored in, vs strength 4 for normal hunters. The nive is strength 8 vs ranger strength 7. I think the creator didn't balance for the ice demon promotion granting +1 cold combat, not to mention that most of their units get special abilities, bonuses in the terrains they are likely to fight in, and pass negative promotions to the enemies they fight (through ice demon or otherwise). Though elsewhere it seems to have recognized they are stronger, but was incorrect about other areas (the nives are described in civilpedia as better at fighting but slower than rangers--nope, same speed, but the stronger part is right).

    Their troop roster also features inappropriate access to weapons. Aside from the above discussed giant birds with metal weapons, the kocrachon unit, a cloud of biting locusts, is allowed to equip bronze, iron, or mithril. And their nives units, a big bear, is allowed to carry hawks, although that might be justified in some symbiotic relationship.

    Since the ice demon promotion is granted automatically to their units, I imagine their normal units to be likewise overpowered by about +1 strength.

    Hitting them with the nerf bat could start by removing the +1 cold combat from ice demon racial trait, removing metal weapon capability from the insect and bird units, and nerfing the heck out of their flying bird knight replacement as outlined above. Also, perhaps remove their access to cannons, it doesn't fit and they don't need it.

    7) The master buildings (rancher, etc) have a weird tooltip where they say "requires you own at least 1, you have 0" when you otherwise do not meet their other requirements.

    8) Blessed armor (mounted) is enabled for beast and mounted units, while its neutral and evil counterparts are limited to mounted units.
     
  2. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    interesting review.

    It's true that Hippus ending at mass-HA is strange.
    However I wouldn't give them a medium-mounted unit (as there are already the chariots and HA at that tech-tier).

    but what could be done is the following:
    get champion to mounted infantry : give it mobility 2 and access to a few of the bought gear for mounted units ?

    get a gun-powder-mounted Unit :
    either the Dragoon that moved by horse, and fired by foot, then melee on the horse ? : roughly a mounted unit with stats of the arquebuse, but with 2 mvt as base (instead of 1 for arquebuse, and 3 for horses and access to mounted promotions instead of melee) (so 10str, 2mvt, ignore building defense).

    or the Hussard that fired 1-2 shots on horse and then could charge with melee : a HA on steroids, but with less withdrawal : 9/8 str on a 3move mounted unit (+20%withdrawal)
     
  3. black_imperator

    black_imperator Emperor

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    I'll count that as a bug, we'll try the 32 one first and if too strong we'll decrease both caps a bit
    yeah a new riding gunpowder uu could be a good idea, especially since they're about to lose their current UU. people often discussed mounted mages and settlers too
    the gunpower cavalry would partly help with that, though i agree there's still a lack of purely offensive melee cavalry, i'll think about it
    noted
    need to look at the tech tree and the balancing, but that's doable yeah
    The Frozen are a civ that's seriously in need of rebalancing, and maybe refocusing. your points about fiacra and the metal weapons are good, i'll see to it.

    yeah the tooltip isn't clear about the actual mechanic. You need a GE to build the first one before being able to build more normally.
    noted
    any of those could work.
     
  4. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

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    I think the examples you cite about the Calabim, Ljosalfar, and Mazatl are different. Yes, some buildings benefit certain civs more than others, but with the Scions you're talking about buildings (the Lighthosue, Granary, and Smokehouse) whose primary function, food, is useless for the Scions, who benefit only from those buildings' secondary functions. I think from an in-world point of view it doesn't make sense for a society to build buildings that do things that they don't need.

    Anyway, we obviously disagree on this and aren't going to resolve it. I think the Scions should have a UB replacement for the Lighthouse, and probably the Granary and Smokehouse as well, and you don't. Whatever the team ends up deciding is fine by me. I've said before that there are some interesting looking ideas in the Scions Healthcare module that the team might want to consider, but up to them, obviously.

    I guess we do agree on one thing: that the Salthouse is completely useless for the Scions and should either be blocked for them or replaced with a UB. So we can agree to agree on that and disagree on the rest.:)
     
  5. BanTingyun

    BanTingyun Chieftain

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    Black_Imperator: a few more thoughts that occured to me last night:

    1)On further reflection I wonder if the need for medium cavalry is a more general point across all civs troop upgrade lines. It is very odd for normal units of mounted horseman to be entirely replaced by horse archers, which simply isn't a progression that happened in medieval warfare (rather civilizations like the parthians that used horse archers heavily were in a somewhat unique situation, and civs that didn't basically stuck to simply making their cavalry better armored at melee for the most part).

    The other main problem is the power of war chariots. Chariot warfare having become obsolete around the time we switch to AD, more than 1000 years before the advent of knights, because chariots simply had no way of really competing with normal horsemen much less knights. Of course it is a fantasy game, but the fantasy genre is at its best when being realistic in its own terms by borrowing guidance from real world mechanics.

    Currently war chariots are 12/9 +50percent archery can use metal weapons 3 movement 25 withdraw. Knights are 11/9 can use metal weapons 3 movement 35 withdraw. They both cost the same, but knight requires a later tech that costs twice as much.

    Meaning knights come one tier later, and have -1 attack and lose the 50 percent against archery bonus, and all they have to show for that is an extra 10 percent withdrawal. Meaning knights are weaker than war chariots, which is pretty insane.

    A few small changes could increase verisimilitude:

    a) medium cavalry unit added at stirrups or warhorses for most civs

    b) war chariots nerfed to be at least somewhat weaker than the later coming knights--even from a game balance perspective this seems needed (or if a more dramatic change was in the works, moved much earlier in tech tree and made appropriately weaker). I checked the ffh wiki on war chariots, and it says base ffh removed them entirely, and then I stumbled on some threads where Kael was discussing similar concerns. I imagine a concious decision was made to keep them in the ff rife line, but at least their strength should be adjusted.

    2) The mechanic I miss most from Realism Invictus mod is the combined arms bonuses from stacking units of different types. So for example, if you had mounted units and infantry units stacked, the infantry units would get a small bonus to withdraw reflecting the tactical assistance of the cavalry, and the mounted units would get a bonus to strength reflecting the support of the infantry, or some such (with bonuses for archers and such as well of course). It really added the feel of creating a sensible ancient army that would work well together. Later, as time permits, it might make sense to implement that system (I imagine the realism invictus developers would be amenable to borrowing the system).

    Nor'easter: certainly, I enjoyed the discussion with a fellow scions fan! I'll just close by addressing your newly articulated "primary function" argument--unhealthiness hurts the scions FAR more than normal civs, because it carries with it not only a hammer loss per pop but also the unhealthy discontent python buildings that carry large penalties to happiness, production, and commerce. If it helps we can conceptually separate the two effects of granary/smokehouse for the scions. These buildings have a dramatic "primary function" of fighting the unhealthy discontent of their many living subjects manifested through python buildings (lore appropriate, as living subjects very much do need food and clean living environment and are likely to riot if not given them by their undead upperclass), and a secondary effect of fighting the normal effects of unhealthiness (-1 prod for scions vs -1 food for normal). Put another way, when building a granary carries with it an effective +1 happiness, +2 culture, +1 wealth, -5 crime rate, +10% production (erasing the first level of unhealthy discontent), I'm not likely to wonder "but where is my food storage bonus?" ;) At any rate, it was fun debating with you. :)

    Calavente: interesting ideas on the units!
     
  6. black_imperator

    black_imperator Emperor

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    One of the old rife plans that were agreed upon as a large revamp before rife ended was about a full revamp of the unit lines. in that setup, the mounted line looked like : T1:Chariot T2: Horseman T3: Splitting between Lancier and Horse Archer T4: Lancier becoming Knight and Horse Archer becoming Pistolier/Dragoon/Hussard

    That's probably doable with the current xml systems. not certain about it though, could be a module.
     
  7. BanTingyun

    BanTingyun Chieftain

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    Black_Imperator: That new mounted line sounds like it would be great.

    Thanks for all the work you are doing. I am looking forward to the new (mercenary?) mechanic for the hippus. I think I'll play them as esus worshippers--very tempting to get another 4 top tier mounted national units. ;)
     
  8. black_imperator

    black_imperator Emperor

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    to be fair, the new mechanic is for everyone, the hippus just get bonuses for it and a sub-mechanic that finally makes them live up to their lore
     
  9. Marcus_Iscariat

    Marcus_Iscariat Chieftain

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    black_imperator I found a new bug and it's very annoying Larry, Curly and Moe are losing Hidden Nationality between turns without me choosing them to lose that promotion.

    I couldn't find if it's been dealt with as I am using the 14.11 Standard Version but a search of the thread didn't show it.

    I have attached the saves from the turn they change and the 2 turns before.
     

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  10. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    game freezes ON creating battle sluga, I'm sure it's been already reported here:


    hey ya!

     

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  11. black_imperator

    black_imperator Emperor

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    Ok i'll check that
    SVN or normal download ?
     
  12. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    normal DL-s 14.11 version

    autsave - sluga issue, quicksave - dragon
     
  13. black_imperator

    black_imperator Emperor

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    The Acheron thing isn't a bug, he is leashed in rife (a random leash between 1 and 4 tiles iirc), not held on his tile.
     
  14. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

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    I guess I think of the Granary's primary function as food storage because I started with Civ 3, where that was the only thing the Granary did. And even in regular BtS, where Granaries offer health benefits, they store 50% of food after growth, as opposed to the 15% of FfH, so food storage is a much more significant aspect of what they do.

    One can debate what the primary purpose of these buildings is, but I stand by my broader argument that within the world postulated by Ashes (and before that, RifE and FF), the Scions wouldn't bother researching how to produce or store food. Yes, sometimes scientific discoveries happen by accident, but even if we assumed that the Scions accidentally discovered how to increase food production or store food, these abilities would have no practical application for them, so it seems to me that they wouldn't build buildings that do these things. Instead, they would build a simpler -- and presumably less expensive -- building that increases trade routes in coastal cities but not food production. Similarly, they would build simpler and less expensive buildings that increase health from particular resources but don't store food.

    I hope I've articulated my rationale better than previously. If you're still not persuaded about the virtues of Scion UB replacements for the Lighthouse, Smokehouse, and Granary, that's fine. We do still agree on replacing or getting rid of the Salthouse for the Scions. For me, the Scions' ability to build those buildings hurts the immersion factor, but I realize that that varies from person to person: some people dislike the Hill Giants' being named Moe, Larry, and Curly; I always block the Hamstalfar from being in my games, etc.

    The Kingfisher Wharf guild is a slight anomaly for the Scions, since they benefit from the Commerce boost but are indifferent to the food bonus. Probably no reason to block the food bonus for the Scions here, since it's a non-factor. And obviously they have no reason to build the Farmers' Guild -- might make sense to block that for them so that a player (human or AI) doesn't mistakenly waste a Great Merchant on establishing that guild.
     
  15. BanTingyun

    BanTingyun Chieftain

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    Nor'Easter:

    I'm enjoying the discussion. :)

    I wouldn't block the farmer's guild--it allows access to farmer's market building, which gives +25 percent commerce when you have all the food resources, a huge bonus. In the scion's case, I conceptualize it as organized export of food resources facilitated by the guild.

    To respond to your arguments on lore-appropriateness in two parts:

    Lighthouse: You argue the scions wouldn't bother researching how to produce food so the lighthouse doesn't fit the lore--ok, but while producing food is the game mechanics result of the lighthouse, it isn't the lore understanding of what this building does. You want to guide ships safely into harbor? You build a tall structure with a light. This allows most civs to get a food bonus from working ocean squares, representing aid to their fishing boats. It also grants a bonus to trade, because it guides trade ships. It isn't a food factory, but rather that is simply part of the natural bonuses that result from building a tall structure with a light.

    You argue that the scions "would build a simpler -- and presumably less expensive -- building that increases trade routes in coastal cities but not food production." What, exactly? If you build a tall structure with a light that can safely guide trade ships into harbor, it guides fishing boats as well. Not like you can build it shorter if you only need to guide trade ships. ;)

    Granary/Smokehouse: I've already argued at length that the scion healthcare module misunderstands the lore and forgets that the scions have a huge living population that needs to be cared for (because they aren't yet capable of granting the gift widely), so this time let me simply quote Tarquelne, creator of the scions.

    Tarquelne quote 1: "Yep - well after the "1.31" documentation was made a new mechanic was added: Scion cities with too much unhealth get hammer/happiness penalties 'cuz all the living people -servants and such - are upset. (Whiners. Necropolis will pretty much fix that, btw.) Several of the health buildings were again made available to give the Scions so way of avoiding the penalty. "

    Tarquelne quote 2: ""Unhealthy Discontent" primarily represents conditions among the living population of the cities - the people taking out the trash, doing the laundry, etc. (You wouldn't expect an Awakened Patrian to do this stuff, would you? I mean, really.) The "Discontent" is a combination of unrest among the living third-class citizens, and Patrian peevishness about the neighbors hiring away the last surviving serving man who knew how you liked your Blood Essence Mojitos. "Unhealthy Discontent" doesn't appear in cities with a Scion Necropolis building, as at that point even most of the below-stairs staff have received the Gift. Starvation is no longer an acceptable excuse for slacking.""

    As Tarquelne explains, the granary and smokehouses are the lore appropriate way the scions placate their living servants until they learn how to mass grant the gift with the advent of the necropolis. And keeping the servants alive, before you know how to make them undead, requires storing food.
     
  16. BanTingyun

    BanTingyun Chieftain

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    Bug/issues reports:

    1) Lanun do not start with fishing (at least some leaders), instead just their lanun-exclusive seafaring tech. Might be intended, but other civs like the scions start with both their civ-exclusive tech and an additional one.

    2) Fellowship of the leaves, aside from its intended 3 shift to neutral per turn under broader alignments, seems to have a -3 to ethical alignment until -325. Seems a mistake?

    3) Council of Esus has no shift for ethical alignment (maybe the -3 to -325 was intended for it?)

    4) Runes of Kilmorph has +3 registered twice, under both alignment and ethical alignment.

    5) No shift of alignment in white hand cult

    6) Some religions, like ashen veil, have their alignment change as shift in alignment, others, like order, have it listed as shift in ethical alignment. Not sure if what the difference represents, or if it is simply a mistake.

    7) high priest of Omorr of the Mazartl requires incense to build (carried over from the empyrran priest it replaced), but incense is a dessert resource, and given the mazartl religions are their own version of things, it should probably be replaced with a jungle resource.

    8) The civilpedia/tooltip of the mechanos unique building factory says +5% production with refined mana. The implementation is instead +5% per refined mana. Suggest changing the civilpedia/tooltip (as given the mechanos start with refined mana from their palace, the building bonus is clearly intended to be per refined mana, rather than the one-time implied by the civilpedia). Unless this is just some quirk of how factory type buildings get displayed.

    EDIT: Balancing feedback--with the bonus to food and commerce from plantable kelp, and happiness per kelp under guardian of nature civic, Fellowship of the Leaves seems to have become the dominant choice for the Lanun civ as religion, allowing them to grow larger cities from the food and happiness. Picking octopus overlords or another choice seems quite weaker. Intended?
     
  17. black_imperator

    black_imperator Emperor

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    Alignment is the Good-Evil axis while ethical Alignment is the Lawful-Chaotic one.
     
  18. BanTingyun

    BanTingyun Chieftain

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    Oh, then in that case I have the following suggestions for changes:

    1) Fellowship of the Leaves shouldn't shift towards chaotic, given it represents the true neutral alignment (druids in DnD and such)

    2) Esus should have some kind of a shift towards evil. Murder and deception to get ahead.

    3) Octopus overlords should have a shift towards evil. Drowning people and driving slaves insane and such.

    4) White hand should have a shift towards lawful. Stasis and whatnot.

    BTW, not sure if you caught my edit addition of a balance issue to the previous post regarding Lanun being heavily pushed towards fellowship of the leaves with the kelp happiness and such. I'll start a working list each day I test and only post when finished, I think my tendency to edit as I go with new reports is not the best system.

    Speaking of which, final issue for today: The Mazartl get access to buildable wyverns too early:

    At priesthood, as long as they construct the 12 guardians, they can use their worldspell and start building wyverns. Wyverns are a national unit with a limit of 9 units (not sure why higher than normal 4), that are strength 12 and have acid spit and are dragons. 180 production.

    To account for the time needed to train the guardians (which are themselves useful military units), let's look one tech tier after priesthood, at ironworking (double tech cost of priesthood), their opponents will be able to build champions, strength 6 units, for 120 production.

    I understand the worldspell gets consumed for this, so it should be powerful, but perhaps adding a tech prereq that delays the wyverns one tier or so, or else increasing their cost, would be worth it.
     
  19. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    FoL is actually the most sought religion at AoE mod. In FFH2 - not so much. health and happiness and camps at the forest with a chance to get resources. Nice!

    Instead oh tuning down FoL, I'd spice up other religions.

    In FFH, everyone ( almost) rushes for RoK, at AoE - no.
     
  20. black_imperator

    black_imperator Emperor

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    Yeah that probably should be best will take a look.
    I'd tend to disagree, the slight shift towards chaotic represents the "let nature follow its course" opinions of the FoL that would tend to cause some mess in too-organised societies. As for the druids, they have a really weird position at the moment : ingame they are the Good-Evil axis Neutral unit, with clear synergy with FoL but no actual link. In lore they are some of Sucellus Priests, before and after resurrection, which would nudge them towards Good and still give them a link with FoL.
    There'll probably be a need at some point to clarify that.

    The shift towards evil should already be in, no shift towards Lawful or Chaotic planned though ( They can profit from both systems as long as they aren't too extreme)

    Slightly Lawful and Slightly Good, works great for Kilmorph, i think


    Here we get to a nice question, do we think the stasis means that no change happens ( in which case a chaotic society would stay that way under the white hand), or do we think that Auric's and Mulcarn's influence on the religion tend to push people toward lawful evil. I'm in favor of the second (and honestly thought that's what we had set up, i'll check)


    Ashen Veil is Pure Evil ( though i might add a slight chaotic effect), while order is Pure Lawful.

    Here we get to another issue, there are accounts in lore of perfectly benevolent OO, there are also accounts of some that are worse than Hyborem. OO is purely chaotic because eash priest hears from a different Overlord, making it possible to have two completely different versions of the religion.
    The issue here is that we represent ingame only one aspect of that, the evil one. So yeah as it is, OO should shift towards evil, but i'm not sure the current version of OO is the best one. We have similar problems with Order.
    Evil Order is a very easy thing to conceive, but the current Religious Heroes push towards the Good interpretation.


    Agreed

    Agreed

    Definitely not intended, and part of a serious balance issue on religions. the two early ones ( not counting OO) are the two most interesting in terms of economy, which doesn't really help a healthy variation in terms of religion's pick ^^


    I'm so not fond of that worldspell anyway. But, yeah valid point.
     

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