Final Tuning: The "F" stuff

[ElliotS]

I agree, but it’s just really complex to give them dynamic valuation, as it’s more than just an issue of religion value, it’s also an issue of opportunity cost and outside pressure (religious persistence viability). It’s one of those ‘massive projects’ that doesn’t have amazing turnaround in terms of performance.

Yeah. I hope to see some middle ground found, but I understand it can be hard or impossible.

 

[Deadstarre]

I can understand theyd prefer stability. any changes here likely will have no turnaround in performance, AI gonna be doing the same either way but IMO it'd reap benefits for the player experience. The only variable that should matter is the relationship i think; by an AI fighting to keep their enemies religion they hurt themselves in the process (by boosting their enemy) and it just looks bad to players. all the other stuff ElliotS mentioned falls in the "great if possible but likely diminishing returns" category.

 

[Gazebo]

I can understand theyd prefer stability. any changes here likely will have no turnaround in performance, AI gonna be doing the same either way but IMO it'd reap benefits for the player experience. The only variable that should matter is the relationship i think; by an AI fighting to keep their enemies religion they hurt themselves in the process (by boosting their enemy) and it just looks bad to players. all the other stuff ElliotS mentioned falls in the "great if possible but likely diminishing returns" category.

Any attempt to prioritize religions beyond ‘the biggest in our land’ is a nightmare. Trust me I’ve worked on this before and reverted the changes because I couldn’t get it to make senses.

 

[tu_79]

Any attempt to prioritize religions beyond ‘the biggest in our land’ is a nightmare. Trust me I’ve worked on this before and reverted the changes because I couldn’t get it to make senses.

Now that Google has released AutoML, you could give it a try.

 

[Gazebo]

Now that Google has released AutoML, you could give it a try.

lol

G

 

[Stalker0]

I still can never get excited about the Global Theater. Even though I like Great Writers, I just can never seem to around to this wonder compared to other things I'm doing.

I feel similarly about the Uffizi, not not as stronger for some reason (and in general I think writers are stronger than artists).

 

[CrazyG]

I personally think Louvre is an F, and Uffizi or Globe Theatre are like an D minus. These just aren't worth hammer most of the time, they are pretty weak even if they play perfectly into your strategy, and I only consider them when my civ has direct synergy (basically just Arabia, maybe Globe Theatre with Assyria)

 

[phantomaxl1207]

What in particular do you feel is weak about them? Is The Theming bonus is not potent enough? Compared to Broadway's 15,you get 5 for Globe , 5 for Ufizzi and 8 for the Louvre. It is about 2 more Great Works worth of Tourism via Theming. OR perhaps they ought to come with an additional bonus like Broadway's Culture per new Building.

I would like to think they are worth it for Tourism.

 

[chicorbeef]

I personally think Louvre is an F, and Uffizi or Globe Theatre are like an D minus. These just aren't worth hammer most of the time, they are pretty weak even if they play perfectly into your strategy, and I only consider them when my civ has direct synergy (basically just Arabia, maybe Globe Theatre with Assyria)

Doesn't Louvre have 4 artifact slots though? It's also pretty achievable in my games, more than other wonders. I prioritize Louvre in culture games, it's often the only culture wonder I get.

 

[CrazyG]

Doesn't Louvre have 4 artifact slots though? It's also pretty achievable in my games, more than other wonders. I prioritize Louvre in culture games, it's often the only culture wonder I get.

Just because you can build something doesn't mean you should. If possible, just reload one of those games, don't build Louvre, and see what happens. Its not worth that hammers just for artifact slots.

Those Wonders all do dramatically less than other earlier, cheaper wonders. Being easier to beat the AI too doesn't make them a good choice, if they are weaker than balanced wonders they are too weak.

Lets start with the Louvre. Just build Uffizi instead and get basically the same wonder for fewer hammers. (I really think Louvre should give a free museum, since it is you know......a museum)

Now lets look at Uffizi. I'm going to asset that the golden age is usually going to be the better use of the wonder. Notre Dame costs less, gives you a cathedral, and starts a longer golden age. Either Notre Dame is way OP or Uffizi is bad.

Now looks at globe theatre. Some people might prefer a writer to an artist, and its cheaper than the other two, right? I would say Globe Theatre is at best just okay. Its really not great if you make a great work. There is a decent argument for the cultural boost, being like 5 turns ahead in social policies can make a difference, but its still really weak in my opinion. In an era of amazing wonders (Leaning Tower, Chichen Itza, Porcelain Tower, Sistene Chapel) you just have better things to be doing with hammers.

 

[tu_79]

Just because you can build something doesn't mean you should. If possible, just reload one of those games, don't build Louvre, and see what happens. Its not worth that hammers just for artifact slots.

Those Wonders all do dramatically less than other earlier, cheaper wonders. Being easier to beat the AI too doesn't make them a good choice, if they are weaker than balanced wonders they are too weak.

Lets start with the Louvre. Just build Uffizi instead and get basically the same wonder for fewer hammers. (I really think Louvre should give a free museum, since it is you know......a museum)

Now lets look at Uffizi. I'm going to asset that the golden age is usually going to be the better use of the wonder. Notre Dame costs less, gives you a cathedral, and starts a longer golden age. Either Notre Dame is way OP or Uffizi is bad.

Now looks at globe theatre. Some people might prefer a writer to an artist, and its cheaper than the other two, right? I would say Globe Theatre is at best just okay. Its really not great if you make a great work. There is a decent argument for the cultural boost, being like 5 turns ahead in social policies can make a difference, but its still really weak in my opinion. In an era of amazing wonders (Leaning Tower, Chichen Itza, Porcelain Tower, Sistene Chapel) you just have better things to be doing with hammers.

You are seeing if from the perspective of a tradition player. You don't care about one more great people, but you are really worried about not getting buildings built in your capital, that's where all those wonders are going to be built. Those buildings with free people might be better for wide players, as they have a harder time producing GP, and any secondary city might build these wonders. Progress can purchase Great Artists, so filling those slots could be a thing, for even longer golden ages. Authority does the same with Great Writers.

I guess you'll like it better if they gave free guilds instead, but I go for Pisa and Porcelain Towers in such case and leave Globe Theatre and the others for wide players.

 

[CrazyG]

You are seeing if from the perspective of a tradition player. You don't care about one more great people, but you are really worried about not getting buildings built in your capital, that's where all those wonders are going to be built. Those buildings with free people might be better for wide players, as they have a harder time producing GP, and any secondary city might build these wonders. Progress can purchase Great Artists, so filling those slots could be a thing, for even longer golden ages. Authority does the same with Great Writers.

I guess you'll like it better if they gave free guilds instead, but I go for Pisa and Porcelain Towers in such case and leave Globe Theatre and the others for wide players.

If the wonders do have a niche purpose, it certainly is larger empires using them for the golden ages or culture boosts. However, I still feel that compared to the other wonders that give golden ages, regardless of empire type they are weaker than other wonders (and the long term increased wonder cost is a big deal)

In particular Louvre is weak. Do you feel it would be too strong with a free museum?

 

[tu_79]

If the wonders do have a niche purpose, it certainly is larger empires using them for the golden ages or culture boosts. However, I still feel that compared to the other wonders that give golden ages, regardless of empire type they are weaker than other wonders (and the long term increased wonder cost is a big deal)

In particular Louvre is weak. Do you feel it would be too strong with a free museum?

Is Louvre the unique Artistry wonder? I'm not certain if that would be overpowered, but that would be very helpful for culture tall.

 

[ElliotS]

Just because you can build something doesn't mean you should. If possible, just reload one of those games, don't build Louvre, and see what happens. Its not worth that hammers just for artifact slots.

Those Wonders all do dramatically less than other earlier, cheaper wonders. Being easier to beat the AI too doesn't make them a good choice, if they are weaker than balanced wonders they are too weak.

Lets start with the Louvre. Just build Uffizi instead and get basically the same wonder for fewer hammers. (I really think Louvre should give a free museum, since it is you know......a museum)

Now lets look at Uffizi. I'm going to asset that the golden age is usually going to be the better use of the wonder. Notre Dame costs less, gives you a cathedral, and starts a longer golden age. Either Notre Dame is way OP or Uffizi is bad.

Now looks at globe theatre. Some people might prefer a writer to an artist, and its cheaper than the other two, right? I would say Globe Theatre is at best just okay. Its really not great if you make a great work. There is a decent argument for the cultural boost, being like 5 turns ahead in social policies can make a difference, but its still really weak in my opinion. In an era of amazing wonders (Leaning Tower, Chichen Itza, Porcelain Tower, Sistene Chapel) you just have better things to be doing with hammers.

I agree. Whenever I'm leading and can cherry pick my wonders, I typically skip all of those. Even as wide. Globe Theater is the only one I consider for the culture boost, but I typically ignore it too.

Free Museum to Louvre, give Uffizi a really large themeing boost (Double whatever it gives now) and give Globe Theater +2 gold per great work of writing. Those would be my guess at what would work to make them balanced.

 

[chicorbeef]

Just because you can build something doesn't mean you should. If possible, just reload one of those games, don't build Louvre, and see what happens. Its not worth that hammers just for artifact slots.

Those Wonders all do dramatically less than other earlier, cheaper wonders. Being easier to beat the AI too doesn't make them a good choice, if they are weaker than balanced wonders they are too weak.

Lets start with the Louvre. Just build Uffizi instead and get basically the same wonder for fewer hammers. (I really think Louvre should give a free museum, since it is you know......a museum)

Now lets look at Uffizi. I'm going to asset that the golden age is usually going to be the better use of the wonder. Notre Dame costs less, gives you a cathedral, and starts a longer golden age. Either Notre Dame is way OP or Uffizi is bad.

Now looks at globe theatre. Some people might prefer a writer to an artist, and its cheaper than the other two, right? I would say Globe Theatre is at best just okay. Its really not great if you make a great work. There is a decent argument for the cultural boost, being like 5 turns ahead in social policies can make a difference, but its still really weak in my opinion. In an era of amazing wonders (Leaning Tower, Chichen Itza, Porcelain Tower, Sistene Chapel) you just have better things to be doing with hammers.

So do you just fill up museums and stack up single great works in your capital for Tourism, other than Oxford/Hermitage?

 

[wobuffet]

What are all the benefits of Themed works? Extra Tourism/Culture, whatever the bonus yield is (Gold, Culture, etc.), extra GA turns when burning Great Artist for Golden Age. Am I missing anything?

edit: thanks @chicorbeef

 

[chicorbeef]

What are all the benefits of Themed works? Extra Tourism, whatever the bonus yield is (Gold, Culture, etc.), extra GA turns when burning Great Artist for Golden Age. Am I missing anything?

A nitpick: you get extra culture/tourism, not just tourism. But yeah that's all.

 

[CrazyG]

So do you just fill up museums and stack up single great works in your capital for Tourism, other than Oxford/Hermitage?

Yes. I can recall running out of great works slots a total of once ever, and it was a one city challenge.

Is Louvre the unique Artistry wonder? I'm not certain if that would be overpowered, but that would be very helpful for culture tall

It is. I still think it would be kind of bad. Its a lot of hammers to spend on not that much benefit. Realistically you only need like one wonder with a themeing bonus, unless you get a ton of archeology, in which case you'll most likely win regardless of if you built Louvre.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Complaint about how expensive Archaeologists are with Knowledge Through Devotion.

 

[Deadstarre]

Complaint about how expensive Archaeologists are with Knowledge Through Devotion.

maybe because im used to having strong faith generation but im surprised to see everyone say this, i've happily paid their price in faith many times over without a second thought, if anything I thought it was cheap