Final Tuning: The "F" stuff

[tu_79]

Does anyone like Synagogues as a follower belief? I ferf like it is pointless unless you are already all in on a WLTKD strategy (China, Fealty, etc)

I do. That gives my great merchants something to do when I'm going for science victory.

 

[tu_79]

Do people like the new churches? I find they just don't payoff in many realistic scenarios. You need to build so many missionaries to make them payoff, are there commonly situations where building churches then missionaries actually spreads faster than just building missionaries? To gain on raw %, you need to build 20 missionaries after a church to gain on that dimension. However, its only relevant when that marginal 5% is what tips a city, which won't happen most of the time. And for your own cities, inquisitors are still better. So that 5% bonus matters only when in a tight religious competition for a foreign cities, where you are purchasing massive numbers of missionaries.

Even if the above happens, prophets or military seem like better solutions that diluting your own religion just to spread it. The extra passive pressure is nice, I'll give them that, but its an easy "F" for me. Am I I'm missing something?

Long time no see, proffesor.
I'm never tempted by churches, but that's because I'm not actively spreading religion in my latest games. If my strategy included converting half world into my religion, then I would think about it.

 

[chicorbeef]

Am I the only one who prefers to plant towns and prioritize WLTKDs through trade/CS allies (using circuses to reset resources not feasible to get)?

I think the fact that Churches are only capable of reaching their full potential in a 10-city empire is part of their weakness.

I think people ought to talk about the Walls of Babylon, the extra scientist slot is often just too hard to work early game, maybe the Walls should just offer +3 GS Points as someone else proposed.

 

[tu_79]

I think people ought to talk about the Walls of Babylon, the extra scientist slot is often just too hard to work early game, maybe the Walls should just offer +3 GS Points as someone else proposed.

Dunno. I'm currently trying it, and it seems to me that I can delay libraries for longer, thanks to the scientist slot. It's not being worked in Ancient, and not too much in Classical, but after that the slot is filled, so I'm not falling short of science.

 

[chicorbeef]

Dunno. I'm currently trying it, and it seems to me that I can delay libraries for longer, thanks to the scientist slot. It's not being worked in Ancient, and not too much in Classical, but after that the slot is filled, so I'm not falling short of science.

I'm confused, are you delaying Libraries in the Medieval? Seems worth it to build at that point just so you can get Unis up and for the flat science, plus the National Wonders associated with them.

 

[Gazebo]

They also convert like a missionary with 1 use IIRC.

Probably not. I would make the church reduce empire-wide faith purchase costs and increase conversion of missionaries by 2% each, up to 30%.

Another option: give missionaries born in the city the promotion that allows them to use other civ roads. Speedier missionaries could be handy.

G

 

[Stalker0]

Another option: give missionaries born in the city the promotion that allows them to use other civ roads. Speedier missionaries could be handy.

G

One issue with that is they become the greatest scout ever.

5 speed, use enemy roads, bypass borders. Even if they lose faith every round you could still explore a massive amount before they died out.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

They also convert like a missionary with 1 use IIRC.

Inquisitors do not convert. They can remove Religion from a City entirely if you some how get an inquisitor into a City without that Religion. Maybe it is a rather uncommon occurrence.

 

[ashendashin]

One issue with that is they become the greatest scout ever.

5 speed, use enemy roads, bypass borders. Even if they lose faith every round you could still explore a massive amount before they died out.

Blind them, maybe? It'd make them extremely vulnerable to barbs, but no sight range could keep them on the roads.

Edit:
Misunderstood. This is a church discussion, not overall missionary. I'll keep my shame.

 

[chicorbeef]

Is it possible just to make it such that if you have a church in every non-puppet city, they gain the extra spread action?

 

[pineappledan]

Giving promotions to missionaries brings us back to the original problem with 3 spreads: you only need 1 church on empire, and then you can funnel all missionary purchases through 1 city.

Boosting missionaries is best done with wonders or beliefs, things with global effects. The church's bonuses should be constrained to the city they are built in.

Churches often sponsor missionaries IRL. Maybe a small gold bonus in city with a church with every missionary action? Then move the conversion strength bonus to Borobudur as previously discussed.

Church:
+4 Faith
20% resistance to conversion in city
+50% religious pressure emanating from city
On missionary spread, 10 Gold in city, Scaling with Era
Reduces Poverty

Exact gold amount is up for debate, not sure what would be balanced. I think poverty reduction, same as cathedral, is more appropriate than boredom.

Borobudur:
+5 Faith
Free Stupa in City
Free Missionary in City
Missionaries have +25% Conversion Strength
Missionaries ignore terrain costs when moving

Either ignore terrain or can use enemy roads. Whichever is preferred

 

[Bromar1]

Churches often sponsor missionaries IRL. Maybe a small gold bonus in city with a church with every missionary action? Then move the conversion strength bonus to Borobudur as previously discussed.

Church:
+4 Faith
20% resistance to conversion in city
+50% religious pressure emanating from city
On missionary spread, ~20 Gold in city, Scaling with Era
Reduces Poverty

Borobudur:
+5 Faith
Free Stupa in City
Free Missionary in City
Missionaries have +25% Conversion Strength and ignore terrain costs when moving

Maybe a little bit overtuned but I like where you're going

 

[Gazebo]

Giving promotions to missionaries brings us back to the original problem with 3 spreads: you only need 1 church on empire, and then you can funnel all missionary purchases through 1 city.

Boosting missionaries is best done with wonders or beliefs, things with global effects. The church's bonuses should be constrained to the city they are built in.

Churches often sponsor missionaries IRL. Maybe a small gold bonus in city with a church with every missionary action? Then move the conversion strength bonus to Borobudur as previously discussed.

Church:
+4 Faith
20% resistance to conversion in city
+50% religious pressure emanating from city
On missionary spread, 10 Gold in city, Scaling with Era
Reduces Poverty

Exact gold amount is up for debate, not sure what would be balanced. I think poverty reduction, same as cathedral, is more appropriate than boredom.

Borobudur:
+5 Faith
Free Stupa in City
Free Missionary in City
Missionaries have +25% Conversion Strength
Missionaries ignore terrain costs when moving

Either ignore terrain or can use enemy roads. Whichever is preferred

tons of new code, tho - we're not doing that.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Synogogues are really good. Science is always in demand, with smart use of your circus and a couple great merchants you can keep WLTKD going most of the game. Even if you only had it up for like 2/3 of the game, it would be +10% in your cities, which is appealing to me in many situations. The building's base yields are good too.

Oh and I would give churches an "F" even when they had 50% pressure. You spend more than 1,000 faith to get them in every city (don't tell me they pay for themselves, it takes way too long to be relevant). Spend that on missionaries instead, or even just a different building.

 

[Stalker0]

Synogogues are really good.

I agree, its one of my favorite buildings actually.

 

[chicorbeef]

Churches had a lot of diplomatic/political power when they were around, how about a boost to diplo units or delegates?

 

[pineappledan]

tons of new code, tho - we're not doing that.

It's just the gold on spread right? none of the rest of that requires new code

 

[Noob Fanboy]

It's just the gold on spread right? none of the rest of that requires new code

"It's just", #triggered

 

[tu_79]

I'm confused, are you delaying Libraries in the Medieval? Seems worth it to build at that point just so you can get Unis up and for the flat science, plus the National Wonders associated with them.

Yep, I don't put much into science in the early game.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Maybe give Churches the old barbie missionary conversion? Or more yields, or a faith cost reduction. Or something diplomacy related, no building/follower belief benefits it. Maybe +5 influence to diplomatic units born in the city and a burst of Faith whenever you diplomat someone?