Finally some actual proof of AI cheating (unless you can prove me wrong)

[Gainy]

I was happily playing a game as the Aztecs ready to rush the Indians with my jags and this is what "went down"...

I had 2 jags sitting outside one of their towns, they could see the town, which was a size of 2. Here's a pic.

To avoid a rep hit I decided to declare war on them whilst outside their territory. I did. After delcaring war, and being immediately kicked off the diplo screen I looked at the town. Note : I did not move the mouse.
Then I moved the mouse, and they rushed a unit! This was in my turn! A pic...

I don't think anyone has come across this before, and I want to make sure that this "Cheat" is known about.

Here is a save if you are unsure of the reliablility of me
Save

I am using PTW Version 1.27f.
Hopefully this can get documented or something...

 

[barron of ideas]

Finding proof of AI cheats is like finding proof of perpetual motion. Since both are highly unlikely, we are going to find a way to determine that there is some other explanation for the phenominon you observe.

Although the player does not get an "interturn" after the AI declares war, the program may grant one to the AI to make their game stronger. In "real life" when the other side mobilizes for war, most of the time the defenders get a chance to do something about it. For particular battles, Pearl Harbor or the German attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, the defender may not pick up on whats happening, or not believe it, but the opportunity is there, and probably the AI is given the chance to do so. There are other things the AI can do you can't. At higher levels they start with more stuff, and can build cheaper/faster than you. In Civ 1, their tririems didn't sink no matter how far from land or how long they were at sea. Deal with it. The CIv games design is programmed to give you an interesting battle. If it were easy, anyone could do it, and who would buy/play the game? How much time do you spend playing tic-tac-toe? Its too easy.

 

[Gainy]

Fair enough. I'm not saying that-that shouldn't happen, just letting people know about it. In alot of cases it may be better to do a sneak attack and take a rep hit, rather than declaring war on them beforehand.

edit: ach well. I thought i was the first to find it out

 

[carlosMM]

this one has been found before (by Bamspeedy?), and was dubbed the 'scared to death' bug.

Whoever found it did some testing and oun that it is another case where the turn sync sucks. Not an intentional AI cheat, but that what is what it amounts to.

 

[barron of ideas]

another thing about it that is "No Fun" (TM Sirian) is that sometimes, depending on the culture of the city, capturing a population one city will raise it, so you don't get a new city for your empire. If you capture a population two city, its yours, at least until it flips back or someone captures it from you. This makes really early wars less profitable than they were before early patches, which is why the patches made the change. The only strategy that made sense was early rush, and there wan't a lot of game if there were no viable strategies likely to be more competitive.

It discourages you from attacking if your gains are less when you do, so the strength two town becomes a population one town, and less profitable to attack since it may disappear when you do beat the defenders.

 

[Santiago]

Just remember, the AI can never actually "cheat". It does what it is programmed to do. So the correct terminology should probably be the programmers gave the AI an advantage the human player doesn't have. Computers can't break rules, except if they have TRUE artificial intelligence. But that hasn't been invented yet.

EDIT- I probably should add that another "cheat creating" possibility would be a bug. I don't want people to start burning programmers in the street just because the AI does something the human can't do on one isolated occasion.

 

[Gainy]

Santiago, I agree that things like the AI starting off with more units on higher levels is not cheating. But in a turn-based game, then taking your turn when its not your turn, is cheating no matter how you look at it.

 

[Santiago]

Gainy bo, it would be cheating if it was a human or another intelligent mind. But the AI doesn't have the power to break rules through reprogramming the game. It probably happens all the time, you just don't see it. Therefore, it MUST be either a bug or a programmed action. I'm not saying it shouldn't be fixed, I'm just saying "cheating" is the wrong terminology.

 

[Gainy]

...hence I put it in inverted comma's

 

[NoMan]

I suggest another possiblity. The city was size 1 all along but the screen did not update until you moved the mouse. I've seen this repeatedly where I move a unit close to an AI town but can't see all the new roads, or other improvements, until somewhat later.

Try repeating your turn, but without declaring war.

I can't access your save as Mac players don't have PTW.

 

[Gainy]

Try repeating your turn, but without declaring war.

I did, I repeated the turn repeatedly I did this in in all sorts of ways, and the only time it ended up as size 1 was immediately after I declared war on em. So there goes your theory

 

[barron of ideas]

I really like this idea, it explains the observed facts and puts a reasonable explanation, other than the "AI cheats" idea that has been worn to death on countless threads here and elsewhere.

Santiago is right, the AI can't "cheat" the way a player could, by reloading when they don't like the result. The computer program operates, and what comes out is what the programer put in the game (programers are responsible for bugs too, even though they may try to call them features.)

 

[Santiago]

Originally posted by Gainy bo
...hence I put it in inverted comma's

Wow, don't I feel like an idiot right now. I always tend to over-argue a point.

 

[Chieftess]

There's a similar thread on this about a year ago. Cracker posted several screens (animation I think) of a warchariot attacking a city, and having it shrink to size 1 mid battle.

 

[lz14]

I couldn't download the save. Try move your jags closer to the city in the first turn, see if the screen is updated properly.

 

[Gainy]

lz14, try again, you can do it yourself
As others have said, this Bug/"cheat" is known about(I didn't), so whatever you are saying isn't going to work out...

 

[lz14]

OK I got it. What happened is they rushed a spearmen, but he only appears the next turn. I would suspect you can capture the city without fighting this spear, you loose the city though.
I was thinking it was discovered ages ago, maybe things changed.

 

[Japanrocks12]

What's the difference between the two pictures other than the "grid"?

 

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by Japanrocks12
What's the difference between the two pictures other than the "grid"?

The city size.

Yes, the AI is calculating it's production during your turn. So if the right conditions happen (you declare war, or kill some of his defenders), he will poprush a unit, but the unit won't actually appear until you end your turn and it's his turn.

 

[Herse]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Yes, the AI is calculating it's production during your turn. So if the right conditions happen (you declare war, or kill some of his defenders), he will poprush a unit, but the unit won't actually appear until you end your turn and it's his turn.

So are you saying that the rushed unit won't actually be in the city if he were to attack right now?

Herse