Finding the 'perfect' political test or poll

[Hitro]

Obviously many people in this forum are quite interested in polls and/or tests which show where on the political spectrum other forum members are placed.
But until now there have always been new polls because there was always anybody who felt left out by the options.
So I'd like you to discuss how a good (in the sense of fitting) political poll or test has to be structured.

As far as I think there are a few main issues about it:

1. The differences between social and economic issues. A person can be very liberal on social issues but still favour planned economy. On the other hand a 'hardcore capitalist' can still be in favour of social restrictions (for example on abortion, drugs, etc.).
So I think distinguishing just between 'left' and 'right' is too unspecific. Parties or ideologies are an option, but many people (at least myself) don't really fit on one party line.

2. The differences between for example America and Europe. A 'liberal' for example is considered to be a different thing depending where you are. I don't even want to start about conservatives, that has naturally to be different, as there are different things to 'conserve'.
So I would favour including different options for the different 'liberals', etc.

3. How specific should it be? If you take parties and/or ideologies what should be included? Is for example the difference between 'left-libertarian' and 'right-libertarian' necessary? How about 'Democratic Socialists' and 'Social Democrats'?

So in disregard of point 3, let's collect options for a political poll.
This is my start (from left to right, focus on Europe):

- Communist
- Socialist
- Social Democrat
- Liberal
- Conservative
- Fascist

Then there are the Greens, who are rather left, but hard to fit in exactly.

And there are the Anarchists, who are often considered left, but as they favour no government or system at all I think it's appropriate to not insert them into the spectrum. They should be in a poll though, of course.

From America, I would add the political parties, which is more specific than 'liberal' or 'conservative':

- Libertarian
- Republican
- Democrat
- Green
- The rest

Add and Discuss...

 

[amadeus]

I disagree that the Libertarians are more right than Republicans. Abortion, moral issues, gay marriages, and the list goes on.

Libertarians are (generally) socially left and economically right...

I'd consider them more towards the middle rather than the far-right.

 

[Greadius]

In the Political science circles I know of they use a graph type scale with the X-axis representing levels of government involved in economic issues and the y-axis representing levels of government involvement in social issues.

Instead of labeling each quadrant, I think its better to place famous political figures in their relative location on the graph and let people place themselves.

 

[Sixchan]

That sort of thing helps for if your in a position like me, being on the Authoritarian right and the economic left.

Also, Images can be used in polls, I think, so all you have to do is create diagrams of different positions

X     X     X     X     X
            |            
X     X     X     X     X
            |            
X-----X-----X-----X-----X
            |
X     X     X     X     X
            |
X     X     X     X     X

All those Xs should be enough

If we get a mod to put it up, he can put in the options since there's more than 20, make it sticky, and then we'll never need another political poll.

 

[ApocalypseKurtz]

Originally posted by Hitro
Obviously many people in this forum are quite interested in polls and/or tests which show where on the political spectrum other forum members are placed.
But until now there have always been new polls because there was always anybody who felt left out by the options.
So I'd like you to discuss how a good (in the sense of fitting) political poll or test has to be structured.

As far as I think there are a few main issues about it:

1. The differences between social and economic issues. A person can be very liberal on social issues but still favour planned economy. On the other hand a 'hardcore capitalist' can still be in favour of social restrictions (for example on abortion, drugs, etc.).
So I think distinguishing just between 'left' and 'right' is too unspecific. Parties or ideologies are an option, but many people (at least myself) don't really fit on one party line.

2. The differences between for example America and Europe. A 'liberal' for example is considered to be a different thing depending where you are. I don't even want to start about conservatives, that has naturally to be different, as there are different things to 'conserve'.
So I would favour including different options for the different 'liberals', etc.

3. How specific should it be? If you take parties and/or ideologies what should be included? Is for example the difference between 'left-libertarian' and 'right-libertarian' necessary? How about 'Democratic Socialists' and 'Social Democrats'?

So in disregard of point 3, let's collect options for a political poll.
This is my start (from left to right, focus on Europe):

- Communist
- Socialist
- Social Democrat
- Liberal
- Conservative
- Fascist

Then there are the Greens, who are rather left, but hard to fit in exactly.

And there are the Anarchists, who are often considered left, but as they favour no government or system at all I think it's appropriate to not insert them into the spectrum. They should be in a poll though, of course.

From America, I would add the political parties, which is more specific than 'liberal' or 'conservative':

- Libertarian
- Republican
- Democrat
- Green
- The rest

Add and Discuss...

I don't think there is any need for a "fascist" option as the party has died out. Not only that but when the word fascist comes to mind, you undeniably picture the regimes of Mussolini and Hitler and the deplorable acts these regimes committed.

I am an American, so by "liberal" I mean left-wing. I realize this causes some confusion as liberal in America is usually only used to refer to social policies. Economic liberalism or neo-liberalism means free market, which is what the economic conservatives in America support while the liberals in America generally want more state intervention.

I am not sure what conservatives in Europe stand for. Anyone want to fill me in?

Social Democrats I know are more left wing than American Democrats, who could be classified as "capitalist" democrats. But I don't know the difference between social democrats and democratic socalists.

Anarchists are really just ultra-libertarians. No government interference whatsoever in both the market and personal/social affairs. Since they are so radical they are viewed as leftish but they really aren't any more left wing or right wing. Still, I agree it is important to include them on the poll.

So maybe the poll options should look something like this:

American Democrat
American Republican
American Reform Party
Libertarian
Anarchist
Green Party
Socialist / Communist (I don't think they need to be seperated since the Communist ideals as originally envisioned by Marx are the same as socialism)
Stalinist? (maybe - some people claim to be economically left but authoritarian on personal/social issues. If they cannot agree to choose Communist then perhaps this is what they are)
Social Democrat/Democratic Socialist
Religious Fundamentalist
Labour Party?
And I still think we should include "none of the above - right wing" "none of the above - centrist" and "none of the above - left wing" etc. for those that do not adhere to a particular party.

 

[Sixchan]

I think the Fascist option should be in there instead of Stalinist. You say the party has died out, but Ideologies are in there, so...

And while I'm happy to describe myself as one or the other (since my Ideology doesn't really have a proper accepted name and I can't be bothered explaining it), I'm not sure Simon would accept the label Stalinist.

 

[Hamlet]

Mine would be:

Fascist.
Hardline Conservative
Moderate Conservative.
'Liberal' Conservative. (I would put Libertarians under this category.)
Liberal
Left-liberal
Social Democrat.
Democratic socialist.
Dictatorial socialist (Would included things such as Leninist, etc.)
Marxist. (For peaceful far-left Socialists.)
Anarchist.

Any good?

 

[Sixchan]

Well, define conservative. Do you mean Conservative in a Tory sense or a Republican sense? Conservative in a Kenneth Clarke or Margret Thatcher way?

Also, Liberal can mean black or white. An american liberal prefers governmental control over things like guns, etc. usually. But a Liberal elsewhere would be quite similar to a Libertarian.

This has been a problem with all previous polls.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Sixchan
Well, define conservative. Do you mean Conservative in a Tory sense or a Republican sense? Conservative in a Kenneth Clarke or Margret Thatcher way?

Errrr, Kenenth Clarke would go under 'Liberal' Conservative, and Margaret Thatcher would be Moderate/borderline Hardline Conservative.

This is the reason I did not just simply whack down a 'Conservative' option.

Or am I missing something here?

I honestly believe that everyone should fit comfortably on the list somewhere.

Originally posted by Sixchan
Also, Liberal can mean black or white. An american liberal prefers governmental control over things like guns, etc. usually.

Yeah, but many American 'liberals' are just pseudo-social democrats that don't have the balls to call themselves that.

Actually, I modified the list:

Fascist.
Hardline Conservative
Moderate Conservative.
'Liberal' Conservative. (I would put Libertarians under this category.)
Libertarian
Liberal
Left-liberal
Social Democrat.
Democratic socialist.
Dictatorial socialist (Would included things such as Leninist, etc.)
Marxist. (For peaceful far-left Socialists.)
Anarchist.

 

[Sixchan]

The problem with "Conservative" that I was getting at is that a hardline tory who believes in giving more power to the house of lords, strict control on guns, etc. would put himself down as hardline Conservative. A hardline republican who believes in giving almost all the power to the people and would abolish unelected peers (if America has any), and believes that the Second Amendmant entitles every American to his own Tank and a Stealth Fighter would also put himself down as a hardline conservative.

So even under those headings, there is still confusion.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Sixchan
So even under those headings, there is still confusion.

Granted, but Conservatism, like patriotism, is simply based on your country and current societal situation, is it not?

We will never have the Conservative 'bit' perfect. It's impossible.

There will of course, be things these so called hardline conservtives agree upon; increasing the defence budget would be one, I'd wager. A decrease/abolition of welfare, etc.

My poll was just my best attempt at creating an all-embracing one from me, a humble politics student.

 

[Sixchan]

Well, in most countries apart from the US, Conservatives favour more governmental control, right?

So:

Conservative Spectrum, Zoomed in.

Hardline Conservative: American
Hardline Conservative: Other
Moderate Conservative: American
Moderate Conservative: Other
'Liberal' Conservative: American
'Liberal' Conservative: Other

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Sixchan
Well, in most countries apart from the US, Conservatives favour more governmental control, right?

I think most, if not all all Conservatives favour a 'strong' government, just not a 'big' one.

Look to the Tories constant witterings about cutting bureacracy, etc.

Also, lumping all non-US conservatives into the same barrel is just as bad as my original options.

 

[Hitro]

Hamlet, could you explain to me the difference between Hardline, Moderate and Liberal Conservatives, as you mean it?
And how about the Greens?

Kurtz, I also think the Fascist option has to be in, after all there are still many Fascists around, no matter if you (and I) like it or not.

EDIT: How about giving examples for the different ideologies. Like 'Republican Party of the US' or 'British Labour Party'?

 

[Simon Darkshade]

"I don't think there is any need for a "fascist" option as the party has died out. Not only that but when the word fascist comes to mind, you undeniably picture the regimes of Mussolini and Hitler and the deplorable acts these regimes committed."

The measure of an ideology is not by the party or parties of coincidental name.

"And while I'm happy to describe myself as one or the other (since my Ideology doesn't really have a proper accepted name and I can't be bothered explaining it), I'm not sure Simon would accept the label Stalinist."

Most definitely. I am not a Stalinist whatsoever. Better dead than red.
Even better: dead reds. I do take the option of fascism. It represents a right authoritarianist approach, with a due level of nationalism et al.

 

[Sixchan]

Okay Hamlet, but then we'll have to Magnify that part of the spectrum greatly. Too much in fact.

Unbound by Ideological names, perhaps this is the way to go.

The 25 options on my graph were:

Complete Economic Control, Total Social Freedom
Large Economic Control, Total Social Freedom
Moderate Economic Control, Total Social Freedom
Little Economic Control, Total Social Freedom
No Economic Control, Total Social Freedom

Complete Economic Control, Large Social Freedom
Large Economic Control, Large Social Freedom
Moderate Economic Control, Large Social Freedom
Little Economic Control, Large Social Freedom
No Economic Control, Large Social Freedom

Complete Economic Control, Moderate Social Freedom
Large Economic Control, Moderate Social Freedom
Moderate Economic Control, Moderate Social Freedom
Little Economic Control, Moderate Social Freedom
No Economic Control, Moderate Social Freedom

Complete Economic Control, Little Social Freedom
Large Economic Control, Little Social Freedom
Moderate Economic Control, Little Social Freedom
Little Economic Control, Little Social Freedom
No Economic Control, Little Social Freedom

Complete Economic Control, No Social Freedom
Large Economic Control, No Social Freedom
Moderate Economic Control, No Social Freedom
Little Economic Control, No Social Freedom
No Economic Control, No Social Freedom


This has GOT to cover everything! Raise your hand if it doesn't!

 

[Pellaken]

the problem with political tests is:
there isent 1 dimention!

you can be socailly left or right, or economically left or right. most political tests take these into account. but then there are freedoms as well, and other things.

I am socailly very left. on a scale of 100's {AKA -100 is total liberal, and +100 is total conservative} then socailly, I'm about -85
but economically, I'm conservative. about +5 perhaps. togethor, I'm more left then right, but still....
also, the freedom thing. I'm more of restricting freedoms for safety... I've seen books, where they quote 3d tests, but I've never seen one I could take.


the other problem is to who? what do I mean? simple. whats called right wing in france, can be {and, frankley, sometime is} called left wing in the USA. reason? the USA is the most right wing country on the face of the planet. no... its true. Russia is one of the most left wing countries on the earth. naitons have different views on whats left and right. in canada, my stats would be -85 and +5 in the US, I'd be -95 and -5. in contential europe, I'd be -75 and +15.
political tests will never be accurate... thats why you gotta pick up a paper, or go on the internat, and READ the policies of the parties sorry, no shortcuts this time!

 

[Hamlet]

After a short break, I am back.

Originally posted by Sixchan
This has GOT to cover everything! Raise your hand if it doesn't!

Aye, heh.

Originally posted by Hitro
Hamlet, could you explain to me the difference between Hardline, Moderate and Liberal Conservatives, as you mean it?

Certainly.

Hardline = Patriotic / Very Patriotic / borderline nationalistic. Very right wing on both economic policy and social policy. Would possibly advocate things such a a total cessation of welfare, etc. Most likely clings to traditional 'christian values'. Likely to be economically right-wing, and would favour privatisation and free market economics completely. Would most likely privatise and de-regulate many things with a vengance. Would include 'the religious right'.

Moderate = Patriotic / very patriotic. Economic emphasis being on privatisation and free market economics. Moderately in favour of minor amounts of welfare. Moderate to conservative on most social issues.

'Liberal' - Patriotic. Most likely to be socially very liberal. Would favour some welfare, and would be very liberal on issues such as homosexuality, women's rights, etc. Still rather right wing with regards to economic policy, and believes in privatisation over state-ownership, although with possibly minor state-ownership, and not excessive amounts of welfare.

^^^^ Is why I didn't put Libertarianism in the list originally.

Originally posted by Hitro
And how about the Greens?

I didn't put them in as technically enviromnetalism is not a political ideolgy, and many 'Greens' base a lot of their policy upon the left side of the political spectrum.

Originally posted by Hitro
EDIT: How about giving examples for the different ideologies. Like 'Republican Party of the US' or 'British Labour Party'?

If you're going for simple 'Conservative' and 'Socialist', etc labels, then I agree, it's a good idea, otherwise it is rather pointless considering the scope of opinions that exist within the said parties.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by Hamlet
If you're going for simple 'Conservative' and 'Socialist', etc labels, then I agree, it's a good idea, otherwise it is rather pointless considering the scope of opinions that exist within the said parties.

True indeed. I personally would have no problem with Sixchan's proposal.
The thing is that I have the impression that it is not what most people here want as a politics poll (correct me if I'm wrong). Most people (I think) are thinking politics very much along party lines (in fact often just along very few issues, for example abortion).

 

[Sixchan]

We could put Ideologies or Parties alongside my system like so:

Complete Economic Control, Total Social Freedom Anarcho-Communist
Large Economic Control, Total Social Freedom Libertarian-Left
Moderate Economic Control, Total Social Freedom Libertarian
Little Economic Control, Total Social Freedom Libertarian-Right
No Economic Control, Total Social Freedom Anarchist

And so on. That way people can comfortably label themselves if they wish.