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Firaxis: BETA Patch Info
- Thread starter Tavis
- Start date
Al Lowe
Chieftain
Oh!! Ok, thanks, I'll double check that.
One thing I would like to see in a next patch is an upgrade to the AI, especially considering use of artillery and ships. The AI never seems to use it's artillery offensively, when attacking they just make a large stack of units that are flagged 'offense' and throw it at you.
Also it would be nice to load transport units into transports, and have landtransports. +AI able to use it.
That last one is not very important.
Also it would be nice to load transport units into transports, and have landtransports. +AI able to use it.
That last one is not very important.
I'm with the many who fear that actual Worker gangs will produce potentially bugs and exploits, be lotsa work for Firaxis to implement, etc etc. STACK COMMANDS wil do! But they would need to be set up so that they allow excess workers (above those needed to do the inital work task) to still be used, as has been suggested. And a Bombard stack-command would be SWEET!!!!!! and almost as useful as the "stack build road, stack build mine", etc. set of commands.
Otherwise their will be an inevitiable need for a patch to fix the exploits that worker gangs will almost certainly generate. What are they- I have no idea. But humans will come up with something, look at the RCP expoit ...
Regarding forests and shield gain from repetitive harvesting, the old vanilla exploit is certainly unacceptable. BUT, trees ARE renewable resources!! I think its unacceptable that you can NEVER EVER AGAIN harvest after once, till the end of time. Arizona Steve's suggestion has merit I think:
The debate is how long it takes for a "harvestable" forest to appear. And does the other benefits of the forest occur during the growth time. For the later, I'd say no. During the turns to grow the forrest, the tile stays whatever it was (plains, grass etc) UNTIL finished- no extra shields by city screen pop workers until the forest is complete. Same for defense bonus etc. Regarding the time to grow. First it should be a flat amount of time, initiated by just a single worker. The question is (a) how long and (b) does the worker have to stay there the entire time. There is a cost in shields to keep the worker there say 20 turns- during that time the worker could have completed other shield generating improvements such as roads or mines, and those shields are not appearing if the worker is still on the tile. Perhaps the mathmatically inclined amonst us can do an analysis on this to see how that plays out/traade-off/breakeven point. If the time is too long it makes the process not worthwhile in terms of overall shiled output/potential shield output loss by the worker sitting there watering trees. Or, we could play it safe and say it takes a very long time (50 turns?) but the worker only has to initate it at the start and can then move on, not needing to stay on the tile during the time the trees grow. This models reality as the planters plant the trees and move on.
I would like to see re-use of trees returned, but not with the original 1.07 exploit. For one thing the map looks nicer with trees on it.
It would be nice in Civ4 if the number of tree tiles worldwide somehow combated global warming. Trees ARE a sink for CO2.
Otherwise their will be an inevitiable need for a patch to fix the exploits that worker gangs will almost certainly generate. What are they- I have no idea. But humans will come up with something, look at the RCP expoit ...
Regarding forests and shield gain from repetitive harvesting, the old vanilla exploit is certainly unacceptable. BUT, trees ARE renewable resources!! I think its unacceptable that you can NEVER EVER AGAIN harvest after once, till the end of time. Arizona Steve's suggestion has merit I think:
The debate is how long it takes for a "harvestable" forest to appear. And does the other benefits of the forest occur during the growth time. For the later, I'd say no. During the turns to grow the forrest, the tile stays whatever it was (plains, grass etc) UNTIL finished- no extra shields by city screen pop workers until the forest is complete. Same for defense bonus etc. Regarding the time to grow. First it should be a flat amount of time, initiated by just a single worker. The question is (a) how long and (b) does the worker have to stay there the entire time. There is a cost in shields to keep the worker there say 20 turns- during that time the worker could have completed other shield generating improvements such as roads or mines, and those shields are not appearing if the worker is still on the tile. Perhaps the mathmatically inclined amonst us can do an analysis on this to see how that plays out/traade-off/breakeven point. If the time is too long it makes the process not worthwhile in terms of overall shiled output/potential shield output loss by the worker sitting there watering trees. Or, we could play it safe and say it takes a very long time (50 turns?) but the worker only has to initate it at the start and can then move on, not needing to stay on the tile during the time the trees grow. This models reality as the planters plant the trees and move on.
I would like to see re-use of trees returned, but not with the original 1.07 exploit. For one thing the map looks nicer with trees on it.
It would be nice in Civ4 if the number of tree tiles worldwide somehow combated global warming. Trees ARE a sink for CO2.
Al Lowe
Chieftain
You know, we still can't move a captured princess.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Prettier for 1 turn, then they are chopped right back down again.
About the only compromise I'd consider is perhaps you could get the shields from that tile once per age.
There are some who make sure EVERY tile in their empire has been harvested once (even tiles that never did have a forest, or ever will have a forest other than to immediately chop it), and if they want to do this 3 extra times (at most), then more power to them. But I don't want to see them doing this continously non-stop throughout the game. It already sickens me that some competitors will do this (one chop of every single tile), but at least put a limit on it. Otherwise you would also HAVE to be doing that non-stop forestry operations to compete, otherwise the other player has thousands, or tens of thousands of shields worth of production edge on you, which would be very hard to overcome.
Sparrow3
Prince
Regarding the the chopping and replanting of trees.
I would like to see the forests replanted and reharvested as follows:
1)Worker would replant the forest in 10 turns. Worker moves on to new job.
2)Forest grows for 10 - 20 turns. At this point it is 1/2 mature. If chopped, it yields 1/2 shield value (5 shields). Chop time 10 turns.
3)Forest grows for 20 -30 turns. At this point it is fully mature. If chopped, it yields full shield value (10 shields). Chop time still 10 turns.
4)Forest grows for 40 - 50 turns. At this point it is old growth forest. If chopped, it yields 1.5 times full shield value (15 shields).
This way you don't tie a worker up for the entire regrowth process and still delay the reharvesting process. Sort of like in real life.
I would like to see the forests replanted and reharvested as follows:
1)Worker would replant the forest in 10 turns. Worker moves on to new job.
2)Forest grows for 10 - 20 turns. At this point it is 1/2 mature. If chopped, it yields 1/2 shield value (5 shields). Chop time 10 turns.
3)Forest grows for 20 -30 turns. At this point it is fully mature. If chopped, it yields full shield value (10 shields). Chop time still 10 turns.
4)Forest grows for 40 - 50 turns. At this point it is old growth forest. If chopped, it yields 1.5 times full shield value (15 shields).
This way you don't tie a worker up for the entire regrowth process and still delay the reharvesting process. Sort of like in real life.
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
Regarding the "worker gang" issue:
Sound effect for it could be "working on the chain"
But I really would propose to stay abstinent of this idea, since I feel that the AI wouldn't be able to handle it correctly. Not to mention all the problems with turns spent for actions already performed and so on and so on....
The by far better idea as I see it would be the "stack" command. Since this would be useful for any stack, I would propose to link it somehow to the right mouse button (RMB).
For instance:
Assumed, you have a stack of 4 catapults, 7 swordmen, 5 spearmen, 8 horsemen.
RMB => the following popup appears
****stacked commands on *****
** next command applies to all units **
** next command applies to + catapults + only **
** next command applies to + swordsmen + only **
** next command applies to + spearmen + only **
** next command applies to + horsemen + only **
This way you could easily give different commands to any different kind of unit in the stack (with the assumption, that the engine then translates that back into individual commands for the individual units, so that your catapults stop bombarding as soon as all defenders are redlined, and so on).
For worker stacks, the same could read then:
(worker stack with 4 own workers, 3 foreign workers)
RMB => the following popup appears:
****stacked commands on *****
** next command applies to all units **
** next command applies to + workers + only **
** next command applies to + foreign workers + only **
I think, linking this to the RMB would be the most easy way to handle it (because no new key kombinations are needed). It would have no influence to the AI at all, since it just is an enhancement of the UI.
It would furthermore avoid all problems with the worker gangs, which have been discussed before, but one hasn't been mentioned so far:
What happenes, if you try to load your worker gang of 5 onto a galley, caravel or galleon?
Sound effect for it could be "working on the chain"
But I really would propose to stay abstinent of this idea, since I feel that the AI wouldn't be able to handle it correctly. Not to mention all the problems with turns spent for actions already performed and so on and so on....
The by far better idea as I see it would be the "stack" command. Since this would be useful for any stack, I would propose to link it somehow to the right mouse button (RMB).
For instance:
Assumed, you have a stack of 4 catapults, 7 swordmen, 5 spearmen, 8 horsemen.
RMB => the following popup appears
****stacked commands on *****
** next command applies to all units **
** next command applies to + catapults + only **
** next command applies to + swordsmen + only **
** next command applies to + spearmen + only **
** next command applies to + horsemen + only **
This way you could easily give different commands to any different kind of unit in the stack (with the assumption, that the engine then translates that back into individual commands for the individual units, so that your catapults stop bombarding as soon as all defenders are redlined, and so on).
For worker stacks, the same could read then:
(worker stack with 4 own workers, 3 foreign workers)
RMB => the following popup appears:
****stacked commands on *****
** next command applies to all units **
** next command applies to + workers + only **
** next command applies to + foreign workers + only **
I think, linking this to the RMB would be the most easy way to handle it (because no new key kombinations are needed). It would have no influence to the AI at all, since it just is an enhancement of the UI.
It would furthermore avoid all problems with the worker gangs, which have been discussed before, but one hasn't been mentioned so far:
What happenes, if you try to load your worker gang of 5 onto a galley, caravel or galleon?
Bamspeedy, I could live with that- once per age. Forests DO take a long time to grow. And ONCE per age is easy to keep track of whiter or not you've done it once. I am not one of those "chop every tile no matter what" types, and I can see the irritation of that, but Once Per 6000 years is a little much (in its rarity, that is!). But your compromose sounds reasonaable and one would think, fairly easy to implement. Just reset the "tile has been harvested" flag at the start of each age.
Sparrow3 I think your suggestion is too complex for us to expect from Firaxis at this point, maybe in Civ4. I had considered something like that at first and dropped it. But great minds think alike!
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
On the forestry subject, I would vote to change it in the opposite direction. I.e. change so that only "old growth" can ever produce shields. Planting forests can be useful for other reasons, or just to beautify the world. I've often done just that. But I've only once planted some forest for the sake of harvesting it. It seemed so tedious that I never did it again and I sure don't want it stronger so that it becomes a competitive necessity. To me it is nothing except tedious to remember which tiles have been done (however "done" is defined, the current rule of one cycle, or a 50 turn rule, or whatever.)
Justus II
General Staff
I would like to keep the current restriction on forsts, mostly because it avoids the potential for abuse as well as reducing record-keeping. For those who claim it isn't 'realistic', that forests should be harvested repeatedly, I look at it as if that is what is going on continously, which is why you are getting the 2 shields per turn in the first place. Cutting the forest for the 10-shield bonus to me means you are clear-cutting the entire area, converting it into farmable land (plains/grass). Basically a limited terraforming, actually changing the terrain, not just a simple 'harvest' of the lumber. In fact, I would even go along with not allowing replanting whatsoever, but I am happy with the system as it is now.
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
The problem with the forest chopping is, as far as I see it, that both is not quite balanced. Forests sometimes are the only way to offer some production capacity to a given city. Nevertheless, with the invention of the railroad, they are literally useless, except for estethic reason, maybe.
OTOH, in the beginning they are really helpful to quickly get some shields into your production queue.
A solution could perhaps be to make the harvesting (that is, using forests, not chopping them down) give you 5 shields instead. But any chopping of a planted forest would give you only 5 shields as well.
I agree, that forest covered areas then would become more productive - but this is true for hilly regions as well. A way, to balance this even more could be to make them give those 5 shields as soon as they are roads on them, but to take away the commerce then.
So, a forest would give 2 shields initially, if "harvested" and 10 shields, when "chopped". After a road exists, the harvest goes up to 5 shields, but no commerce will be gained from the forest tile. That way, you really have to think, if and for what reasons you will make use of that given tile.
OTOH, in the beginning they are really helpful to quickly get some shields into your production queue.
A solution could perhaps be to make the harvesting (that is, using forests, not chopping them down) give you 5 shields instead. But any chopping of a planted forest would give you only 5 shields as well.
I agree, that forest covered areas then would become more productive - but this is true for hilly regions as well. A way, to balance this even more could be to make them give those 5 shields as soon as they are roads on them, but to take away the commerce then.
So, a forest would give 2 shields initially, if "harvested" and 10 shields, when "chopped". After a road exists, the harvest goes up to 5 shields, but no commerce will be gained from the forest tile. That way, you really have to think, if and for what reasons you will make use of that given tile.
TheNiceOne
Emperor
Regarding the "worker gang" issue:
I think that a way of combining workers is a great idea, but that getting it by tech, and restricting the number of units in it etc. is a poor implementation of it.
Rather, what I think would be the best solution, is a simple command that can be given to a single worker: A "create gang" command, which creates a gang and loads that unit onto the gang. After that, other units of the same type (workers) can be loaded into the gang. The gang has one function: That a command given to the gang is treated as identical commands to all units in the gang.
Workers can of course be individually unloaded from the gang, and there should be a disband gang command.
This has maximum flexibility and is a simple concept. There's no need for anything less or anything more IMO.
After this, Firaxis could generalize the concept, so that any unit type coukld be part of a gang of units of that type. It would be nice to have a gang of 20 artillery units that could bombard a city with one bombard command.
I think that a way of combining workers is a great idea, but that getting it by tech, and restricting the number of units in it etc. is a poor implementation of it.
Rather, what I think would be the best solution, is a simple command that can be given to a single worker: A "create gang" command, which creates a gang and loads that unit onto the gang. After that, other units of the same type (workers) can be loaded into the gang. The gang has one function: That a command given to the gang is treated as identical commands to all units in the gang.
Workers can of course be individually unloaded from the gang, and there should be a disband gang command.
This has maximum flexibility and is a simple concept. There's no need for anything less or anything more IMO.
After this, Firaxis could generalize the concept, so that any unit type coukld be part of a gang of units of that type. It would be nice to have a gang of 20 artillery units that could bombard a city with one bombard command.
Ekmek
on steam: ekmek_e
Originally posted by dog
I think you forgot to mention the upcoming "building specific units" editor change though.
1) Is this true too? I was happy to see govt units, but building-specific units is much needed.
2) Does the stealth attack fix mean that it will work for aircraft and other bombard units now?
3) "missing assets allowing continue into game" does this mean the game wont crash after you are missing a pedia text etc or is this something else?
planetfall
Emperor
This is a good idea for enhancing the realism of the game, BUT what about game play? Issues that might detract from gameplay are:
1-- how does player know how long the forest has been growing?
2-- would the AI use this or is this only an advantage to human?
3-- how much longer would each turn take as player has to decide how to harvest or not?
The best visual solution might be:
1. Immature tree crop, Turn after forest planting, 1..19, 1/2 height tree graphics
2. Mature tree crop, turns after planting 20..39, normal tree graphics
3. Quality tree crop, turns after planting 40..59, redwood/sequoia tree graphics
4. Overplanted tree crop, turns after planting 60+, overcrowded/burnt tree graphics
Naturally the overplanted tree forest would suffer from increased junk growth, increased bettle/insect infestations, and thus harvesting should only result in 2 shields due to the increased costs and low value to effort ratio.
Wouldn't the best playable solution be the same as for irrigation and wheat and cattle?
When is the last time you had to
-- harvest wheat to get food bonus?
-- replow the fields for irrigation bonus?
-- render cattle to get extra food bonus?
Why should trees be different? How about having 5 foresting options?
Forest #1-- primeval trees, default, a one time/game bonus of 10s
Forest #2-- young tree farm factory, new, ala Christmas tree farm, yields bonus of 5s every 19 turns.
Forest #3-- standard tree farm factory , new, ala Housing timber tree farm, yields bonus of 10s every 29 turns.
Forest #4-- quality tree farm factory, new, ala Redwood timber tree farm, yields bonus of 15s every 39 turns.
Forest #5-- Protected Forest of trees, new, ala reserves, yields bonus of only 2 shields when harvested, but because density is 5-10x normal, unroaded tile consumes 2 movement turns for ALL units that pass over terrain. Thus this would be a fortress like addition. To make real life, need to add option of each turn having a 2% chance of forest fire damage.
Ok, all these changes would make many changes in the game. Would they add to game play or detract?
Without tree farm factories, tree harvesting is too much micromanagement and would be a final straw to make game unplayable. But with new tree farms, this could introduce a new variable to make us all rethink how we play.
== PF
Sparrow3
Prince
My original post ___________________
I would like to see the forests replanted and reharvested as follows:
1)Worker would replant the forest in 10 turns. Worker moves on to new job.
2)Forest grows for 10 - 20 turns. At this point it is 1/2 mature. If chopped, it yields 1/2 shield value (5 shields). Chop time 10 turns.
3)Forest grows for 20 -30 turns. At this point it is fully mature. If chopped, it yields full shield value (10 shields). Chop time still 10 turns.
4)Forest grows for 40 - 50 turns. At this point it is old growth forest. If chopped, it yields 1.5 times full shield value (15 shields).
_____________________________________
1)newly planted -- saplings
2)Half grown -- larger but not full grown
3)Full grown -- larger still
4)Old growth -- redwood/sequoia
This would tell the player when to harvest.
I would like to see the forests replanted and reharvested as follows:
1)Worker would replant the forest in 10 turns. Worker moves on to new job.
2)Forest grows for 10 - 20 turns. At this point it is 1/2 mature. If chopped, it yields 1/2 shield value (5 shields). Chop time 10 turns.
3)Forest grows for 20 -30 turns. At this point it is fully mature. If chopped, it yields full shield value (10 shields). Chop time still 10 turns.
4)Forest grows for 40 - 50 turns. At this point it is old growth forest. If chopped, it yields 1.5 times full shield value (15 shields).
_____________________________________
This occured to me right after I made the post. I thought the solution would be to ask Sn00py, WarpStrom, or one of the other terrain GURUs to make the needed terrain overlays
1)newly planted -- saplings
2)Half grown -- larger but not full grown
3)Full grown -- larger still
4)Old growth -- redwood/sequoia
This would tell the player when to harvest.
I think you are right this way of implementing forest replanting would be better added in Civ4.Originally posted by royfurr
Sparrow3 I think your suggestion is too complex for us to expect from Firaxis at this point, maybe in Civ4. I had considered something like that at first and dropped it. But great minds think alike!
planetfall
Emperor
Agreed best for C4 and not C3.
Overlay customization would not work without underlying code that would change the overlay based on age of forest terrain.
But again, why make unnessary work. Make one of terrain improvements one of the tree farms. The tree farms could run on automatic and pump out extra shields every X turns, based on tree farm type, i.e. young, standard, quality. Just because the tree farm runs on automatic doesn't mean there could not be an option to have an extra harvest of standard or quality farm and get shield output of young tree farm. If you really need to do something with trees.
But thinking of recent increase in destruction of forest lands by fire, there needs to be a "Global Warming" type of effect on old growth that is NOT harvested. Old overgrown timber changes to junk timber with both NO bonus for harvesting AND no terrain bonus for being timber. Any timber unharvested after 100 turns is damaged goods, and needs new damage overlay and reduction in shields until land is recreated by clearing and replanting.
Again, what is the goal here? Match real life tree farms, or time harvesting of shields? It might be fun to have different flavors of AI civs, some emphasizing:
-- no tree farms
-- only young tree farms, for rapid turn of shields
-- only mature tree farms, for regular production bonus
-- only premium tree farms, for long term productivity gains
-- mixture of all 3 tree farms, for balance.
-- random utilization of tree farm terrain improvement.
Drool for idea being implemented but out of scope for a patch, shucks.
== PF
Overlay customization would not work without underlying code that would change the overlay based on age of forest terrain.
But again, why make unnessary work. Make one of terrain improvements one of the tree farms. The tree farms could run on automatic and pump out extra shields every X turns, based on tree farm type, i.e. young, standard, quality. Just because the tree farm runs on automatic doesn't mean there could not be an option to have an extra harvest of standard or quality farm and get shield output of young tree farm. If you really need to do something with trees.
But thinking of recent increase in destruction of forest lands by fire, there needs to be a "Global Warming" type of effect on old growth that is NOT harvested. Old overgrown timber changes to junk timber with both NO bonus for harvesting AND no terrain bonus for being timber. Any timber unharvested after 100 turns is damaged goods, and needs new damage overlay and reduction in shields until land is recreated by clearing and replanting.
Again, what is the goal here? Match real life tree farms, or time harvesting of shields? It might be fun to have different flavors of AI civs, some emphasizing:
-- no tree farms
-- only young tree farms, for rapid turn of shields
-- only mature tree farms, for regular production bonus
-- only premium tree farms, for long term productivity gains
-- mixture of all 3 tree farms, for balance.
-- random utilization of tree farm terrain improvement.
Drool for idea being implemented but out of scope for a patch, shucks.
== PF
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Is this Civ, or is this Lumberjacking 101? 
nihil8r
space . . . madness
i want an option in the settings that lets me have all of the military units go, then all of the workers go, then all of the settlers go. ie "enable unit type turn order" or "enable military unit turn order priorty" rather than how it is now where i have 100 tanks, 20 boats and 100 workers. 10 tanks will go, then 10 workers, then 10 boats, then 20 workers, then 20 tanks, then 40 workers, then 5 boats ... i want to be able to do ALL of my military units first and then ALL of my civilian units second. i have wanted this forever, in this order ...
planes
boats
artillery
ground
civilian worker
civilian settler
planes
boats
artillery
ground
civilian worker
civilian settler
nihil8r
space . . . madness
i also have wanted the ability to make navies but i don't see that happening with civ 3 ... just like an army except it uses ships. that would be totally cool. i always wondered why boats couldn't create great leaders and why you couldn't make navies in vanilla civ 3.
