warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
How would captured workers fit into a worker gang? Would they still work at half rate and be free of maintenance?
Firaxis: BETA Patch Info
- Thread starter Tavis
- Start date
Hmmm, intersting thought, warpstorm! I would assume that, since it planned to be similar to the Army, that those things would remain true: e.g. load 4 slaves into the gang, and have effectively a free 2-worker gang.
CivCube
Spicy.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2003
- Messages
- 5,824
Perhaps using a "gateway" tech would be the best way to do it. Looking at the techs in the Industrial Age (where worker exhaustion begins), quite a few of the possible ones such as Mass Production and Industrialization already give out quite a lot of stuff. Maybe something like Refining or Motorized Transportation?
Justus II
General Staff
Warpstorm beat me to my question, but I would still wonder how it would handle various situations (mixed stacks of worker and captured, industrious vs. non, etc). But I love the idea! As for techs to trigger usage or increases, I would think Engineering might be a good one to start the worker gang concept, then increases tied to some of the "empty" techs (Chemistry, Physics, maybe Corporation or Steel) rather than adding them to techs that already have units/wonders attached. It would also simulate improved materials for road-building/mining etc.
Agreed Tavis
It would relieve the tedium, without running into Automation issues. Automate is just a bit TOO automatic, plus it often doesn't jive with my opinion of what it should be doing.Late in games I generally have stacks of workers sitting around fortified. When pollution pops up or a city needs to have irrigation changed to mines, or vice versa, I wake them as a stack, and move them as a stack, but there is no way to give them orders as a stack. So that would be another possible tedium reducer. Not a big deal, although you do need to hit Shift-C quite a few times to clear pollution on mountain squares
Back to your Worker Gangs and willingness to accept suggestions (you're just asking for trouble
), the implementation idea that comes to my mind is this:Once you research a particular technology, your own home nationality workers gain a new ability. When moved over a city, they have the ability to be turned into a Worker Gang (similar to how a military leader turns into an army). This would only work with your native (you're paying 1gpt for) workers.
Other than that everything would be as you and others have posted. You can load and unload from them. Their work ability is that of the combined units within them. Other technologies allow the number of workers that can be loaded into them to be increased.
I doubt you want to further complicate things... but it would be kind of cool to be able to include non-worker units in the Worker Gang. My thinking here is that you would include a military unit in the group for defense. Very useful for those groups of workers that travel with your army to quickly lay down roads or railroads as you push into enemy territory.
Gogf
Indescribable
One question, would anyone really want to sacrifice valuable shields to be able to use his workers easier? I would suggest making a workr hang act as if it had an extra worker in it, and cost the same as a worker. So, you have a reason to spend your shields.
Yeti's idea is pretty good too, but I like mine.
Yeti's idea is pretty good too, but I like mine.
Svar
King
I already have a command to move any stack as a stack or move all similar units in a stack as a stack. Now all I need is a command to make all workers in a stack execute the same worker command. How the computer does this isn't as important as the fact that I only need to issue a single command. If it takes 18 iterations for the computer to clear pollution from a mountain tile as long as all I have to do is issue a single command it will speed up the game.
Dr Elmer Jiggle
King
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 811
Why should worker gangs be tied to a technology? As I understand it, they are essentially a user interface improvement. They don't allow you to do anything new. They just make it easier to manage those things that you can already do with workers.
Putting this on a technology would be like putting the "F" key for Fortify on a technology.
It should be available from the beginning of the game. Sure, I won't have enough workers to make a gang practical until a bit later, but the exact point where you want to make your first gang will vary from user to user and game to game. It shouldn't be built into the technology tree. You should be able to convert a worker into a gang with 0 shield or gold cost and with no loss of movement.
Putting this on a technology would be like putting the "F" key for Fortify on a technology.
It should be available from the beginning of the game. Sure, I won't have enough workers to make a gang practical until a bit later, but the exact point where you want to make your first gang will vary from user to user and game to game. It shouldn't be built into the technology tree. You should be able to convert a worker into a gang with 0 shield or gold cost and with no loss of movement.
JustBen
Prince
Could the loadable unit "blow up" upon enemy attack and just drop all the workers it was carrying, allowing capture to proceed normally?
Or you could just slay workers in a captured gang. Not an ideal solution, but if you write it off as a "new strategic consideration" it could provide a easily implemented solution.
What concerns me is where in my production queues I'm going to find the time to build a unit whose only purpose is to simplify bookkeeping. I certainly would build such a unit eventually, but on SP it can be hard to find a free city during the early part of the game. And I know time is useful MP, but is it turns-off-of-your-production-queue useful?
Could the "loadable unit" cost a population point and then have a base working speed, too? That is, to make it the same as a normal worker except to be loadable and working at a speed of X+1 (X being the number of real workers loaded into it).
Or you could just slay workers in a captured gang. Not an ideal solution, but if you write it off as a "new strategic consideration" it could provide a easily implemented solution.
What concerns me is where in my production queues I'm going to find the time to build a unit whose only purpose is to simplify bookkeeping. I certainly would build such a unit eventually, but on SP it can be hard to find a free city during the early part of the game. And I know time is useful MP, but is it turns-off-of-your-production-queue useful?
Could the "loadable unit" cost a population point and then have a base working speed, too? That is, to make it the same as a normal worker except to be loadable and working at a speed of X+1 (X being the number of real workers loaded into it).
JustBen:
I hadn't considered the "what if captured" side of things, although I certainly should have as it is only a small step from my thoughts of defending them. I would expect them to split into the proper number of captured workers, just as settlers currently split into two workers when captured.
As for the base loadable unit - I believe you're agreeing with most, if not all, of us when saying that it should be the same as a regular worker in regards to cost and usefulness when empty. This is why I thought it would be simplest to have a native worker turn into it as opposed to making it a separately built unit.
I hadn't considered the "what if captured" side of things, although I certainly should have as it is only a small step from my thoughts of defending them. I would expect them to split into the proper number of captured workers, just as settlers currently split into two workers when captured.
As for the base loadable unit - I believe you're agreeing with most, if not all, of us when saying that it should be the same as a regular worker in regards to cost and usefulness when empty. This is why I thought it would be simplest to have a native worker turn into it as opposed to making it a separately built unit.
Colonel Kraken
Deity
Yes, Yes, YES! Everyone else is making this too complicated! :sheesh:
--CK
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
If you tie it to a tech (and shields to produce), Worker gangs should have some ability, like an extra move. If it is just something to make things easier, linking it to a tech seems pointless.
Anyway, if you do want them tied to a tech, Refining, Mass Production, or Replaceable Parts all seem to be around the time for a 5-worker gang. For art, why not use a Multi-figure Worker (I'm sure someone has made one with 3-5 workers).
Anyway, if you do want them tied to a tech, Refining, Mass Production, or Replaceable Parts all seem to be around the time for a 5-worker gang. For art, why not use a Multi-figure Worker (I'm sure someone has made one with 3-5 workers).
Wouldn't it be more logical simply to have a universal ability (Similar to the stack commands added in PtW.) that issues one order to all units in a given stack that can perform it? For instance, I could have a 50-tank stack of death poised to take a heavily defended city, and I would just need to issue one order for the tanks to attack in sequence. In that case, it would mimic an army without the benefit of cumulative health. This would allow 'worker gangs', as well as making seige warfare easier.
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
Somehow I think that grouops of 2, 4 or 8 workers are more aproprite, consdering the time to clean pollution on some tiles.
Ringo
Chieftain
Late in the game, managing dozens of workers...I would be happy to build a more efficient way to do boring things like clear polution.
I'm more concerned about the lost productivity when a gang of four is assigned to a task that two workers could complete in one turn, but I guess that will just be another opportunity to micromanage by keeping different "strength" worker gangs around for different tasks (Or frequently adding/removing workers from the gang).
I also have doubts about how well a simple multiplier would work when native workers are mixed with slave units.
Still, cool idea.
Speaking of the Enkidu... let's just say, after a game with Friedrich, and playing them myself, I think a 15 shield enkidu just might be better...
BTW, will you be able to unload workers from the worker gangs? (probably obvious, but it can be easily missed, too). I can see that this part is gonna require TONS of testing in the MP realm (are you listening Pat? ). Then, it's how the AI will react to worker gangs... what happens when a worker gang is captured/traded (then removed individually)?
For now, my list of questions on testing this new feature.
1. How does the AI react to trading worker gangs?
2. Can the AI use worker gangs (and efficiently)?
3. What happens if you get a worker gang via trade/capture?
4. When you have a foreign worker gang, how does removing/adding workers affect it?
5. If a worker gang is building a terrain improvement, does removing/adding units to the gang affect the construction time? (very important for preventing MP OOSs).
6. What happens with any of the above in MP? (i.e., will an OOS message occur?)
Ultimately, I'd like to see a combo of tasks per worker gang.
i.e., you have 2 workers to build a road, and 3 to mine (5 total). The combo would be "mine-road/rail". And there would be one for irragation, too (irragate-road/rail).
BTW, will you be able to unload workers from the worker gangs? (probably obvious, but it can be easily missed, too).
I can see that this part is gonna require TONS of testing in the MP realm (are you listening Pat? ). Then, it's how the AI will react to worker gangs... what happens when a worker gang is captured/traded (then removed individually)?For now, my list of questions on testing this new feature.
1. How does the AI react to trading worker gangs?
2. Can the AI use worker gangs (and efficiently)?
3. What happens if you get a worker gang via trade/capture?
4. When you have a foreign worker gang, how does removing/adding workers affect it?
5. If a worker gang is building a terrain improvement, does removing/adding units to the gang affect the construction time? (very important for preventing MP OOSs).
6. What happens with any of the above in MP? (i.e., will an OOS message occur?)
Ultimately, I'd like to see a combo of tasks per worker gang.
i.e., you have 2 workers to build a road, and 3 to mine (5 total). The combo would be "mine-road/rail". And there would be one for irragation, too (irragate-road/rail).
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
seeing all these incredible things starting getting my hopes up about seeing Helicopters basing on carriers 
These changes really are excellent!
These changes really are excellent!
I'm rather a laymen but I just wanted to put here an idea (that had followed me for a while) for possible improvement in future patches or something (hope it fits into this thread-if not, feel free to move it). I'll let it up to you, masters, to judge it.
The idea would be to have a citizen specialist "truck driver" that could get assigned pair of cities between which he/she could transport let's say one food or one shield a turn (this could maybe increase with technology improvement from "cartweels to trucks"). Of course, the truck driver would consume food in his home city, there would have to be road between the two cities (not occupied by an enemy army), there could be even some corruption penalty, the truck driver could work as a sailor to move shields/food between harbor equipped cities....It could lead to funny starvations during wars as the only way to save the citizens from sustained city would be to make them all settlers and try to move them through the war line to join some safer cities...this leading to choices between unit production and saving citizens...
This would allow in my opinion more realistic specialization of the cities as a city with a lot of food could help sustaining an industrial city somewhere in mountains...I am just afraid it could prove to be a bit harsh on the AI.
As I implied, I have no idea if this could help the game or if there is some problem with it, though.
The idea would be to have a citizen specialist "truck driver" that could get assigned pair of cities between which he/she could transport let's say one food or one shield a turn (this could maybe increase with technology improvement from "cartweels to trucks"). Of course, the truck driver would consume food in his home city, there would have to be road between the two cities (not occupied by an enemy army), there could be even some corruption penalty, the truck driver could work as a sailor to move shields/food between harbor equipped cities....It could lead to funny starvations during wars as the only way to save the citizens from sustained city would be to make them all settlers and try to move them through the war line to join some safer cities...this leading to choices between unit production and saving citizens...
This would allow in my opinion more realistic specialization of the cities as a city with a lot of food could help sustaining an industrial city somewhere in mountains...I am just afraid it could prove to be a bit harsh on the AI.
As I implied, I have no idea if this could help the game or if there is some problem with it, though.
I would also have one humble request on behalf of all us "simpleton laymen", taking care of which is however in the best interest of Firaxis itself in the first place, in my opinion. These discussions here are for and by hardcore funs, yet it is read by majority of people who are increasingly frustrated by understanding that something is wrong with the game yet for various reasons have no clue as to what it is. The original trade bug made the C3C impossible to play and, with full respect to the developpers, this shold not have happened. It has been replaced by something which is now a growing series of patches of patches...This is OK for hardcore players who spend a lot of time by experimenting, testing and playing. I also believe Tavis is doing great job in participating in this way in the discussion with the best players, from which sure all of the players will profit in the end. Yet, most of players I am sure too, are increasingly frustrated. For most of us, there is no place to find out in some simple, conscise form what is going on without first having to go through tens of discussion threads, abbreviations, exploits (which frankly I would prefer not to know even if they are possible due to what I percieve as bugs). In my opinion there is practically no documentation of the game and of the patches although I believe this is crutial in the moment when these patches seems to be necessary for a few month to keep the game alive. I believe, that a lot of the bad blood in several threads around here was actually caused by this problem of poor documentation.
The next patch should not go out without assuring that most of the people can easily find out what is going on, i.e. what works, what doesn't, how it works...Clearly and simply, as for simpletons.
The next patch should not go out without assuring that most of the people can easily find out what is going on, i.e. what works, what doesn't, how it works...Clearly and simply, as for simpletons.
