Firaxis/Breakaway please reconsider bombardment

[warpstorm]

I don't like the new bombardment at all. At first most players will like it, but I think the more competitive players will realize how easy the game becomes with it (especially concidering that the AI eschews use of arty). I'd recommend either allowing the Collateral Damage flag to work with bombardments (which it doesn't even though it uses the bombardment strength to determine the chance of damage) or bringing back the random chance of hitting structures or population (maybe change the probabilities).

I think the current scheme is both less realistic and easier than before.

Oh, yeah, in case you aren't tracking with me, bombardments always hit units first now.

 

[Gengis Khan]

I don't even have Conquest & I KNOW thats a bad idea. Bring back the randomness, hitting units first would make it WAY too easy.

 

[playshogi]

It was easy before, just now you need fewer artillery to do the job. More often than not, I'm just going to raze the city, but if I did capture it, most buildings are destroyed anyway.

 

[warpstorm]

More testing indicates to me that only land and sea bombardment does this. Air seems 'normal' (and quite effective).

 

[Bamspeedy]

With bombardment hitting units first (and leaving buildings intact), this makes capturing the city easier and then keeping the city more of a viable option (you wouldn't have to build everything from scratch).

This does help out communism. Capturing cities that have all the improvements in them helps your empire get stronger than the old method where the cities with no improvements really, really hurt you.

No doubt, it makes the game easier for those who use artillery on offense, and it does help those that are on the war-path by having the cities they conquer be more productive much sooner. But sometimes when I'm in the 'building' mode, I like it if I get to keep those improvements instead of having to build them all over again. So, I don't really care about which way it ends up being.

 

[dreadknought]

Originally posted by warpstorm
More testing indicates to me that only land and sea bombardment does this. Air seems 'normal' (and quite effective).

Hmmm, Still if this is the case and the ai doesnt properly use artillery then its a huge edge to the human player.

 

[cgannon64]

I agree warpstorm. Hitting units first is a bad idea.

I like the addition of lethal bombardment, however.

 

[kokoras]

I like the new bombard.Who said that bombers can't destroy other units,in fact we are in the age of bombardament(sfortunately).The 2ww was all about who had the air power...I think that it doesn't make the game easier,It only changes the strategy.I play the emperor level and i must say that i can't see the reason why it would be not us dificult as before,specialy if the A.I is updated(hope it is).Bombards and air units will help me as much as they will help the opponent.And the artilery units will not be for sure something useless from know on.They played and will play an important role for advansing your troops(or defending your land).If we want the game to be more realistic we must accept the fact that air fighter-bombard units now are more real than ever.

 

[warpstorm]

kokaras, I am not talking about lethal bombard or air units at all. That is much improved.

I am talking specifically about the change to land bombard units (although testing shows that it applies to sea bombardments also). In the current build they always attack units first never touching infrastructure till all units in the city are gone or at one hit point. This is much easier and unrealistic. It is doubly easy because the AI won't use land artillery.

Artillery units have always been the mainstay of my attacks in the late game since the beginning. This change gives the human player an overwhelming advantage in any game that lasts till the industrial age.

 

[kokoras]

Ok warpstorm,it was a misunderstanding from my part.You mean that now land bombard units never destroy buildings in a city untill all units that defend it gon red(primary target-units).If so then yes i agree with you,this is not a realistic bombardament.(hope i got it right this time!)

 

[sgrig]

I agree this does sound like a bad change. I always liked bombarding cities down to size 1, so that when I capture them there are fewer resistors.

However with this change it should now be possible to bombard units in a size 1 city - before bombardment of size 1 cities practically never worked.

 

[dreadknought]

Originally posted by warpstorm
kokaras, I am not talking about lethal bombard or air units at all. That is much improved.

I am talking specifically about the change to land bombard units (although testing shows that it applies to sea bombardments also). In the current build they always attack units first never touching infrastructure till all units in the city are gone or at one hit point. This is much easier and unrealistic. It is doubly easy because the AI won't use land artillery.

Artillery units have always been the mainstay of my attacks in the late game since the beginning. This change gives the human player an overwhelming advantage in any game that lasts till the industrial age.

I totally agree with you because I do the same thing.The thing that surprises me is that I thought conquests was supposed to improve the ai use of artillery.

Before conquests I was working on a scenario(using dyp mod ) that changed the way land artillery worked to sort of even things up or at least make so that artillery would not overwhelm the ai.

 

[Bad Brett]

I'll continue *****ing about those artrillerys. With normal settings (Sid level, max. barbarians, standard land mass, 15 opponents, standard victory conditions), the game is incredibly hard (At least I think so). The changes are more realistic, I can't see why bombing shouldn't be able to kill units... And when land units (ie catapults) attacks a city, the defending units are most likely to get hit. I don't have conquest, but I guess those precision strikes still are in the game, so you can hit buildings with more advanced weapons.

What I hate about bombing, is that it takes such a long time. I'm still waiting for some kind om stack bombing or something.

 

[cgannon64]

With normal settings (Sid level, max. barbarians, standard land mass, 15 opponents, standard victory conditions), the game is incredibly hard (At least I think so).

That's not normal levels! I bet only a handful of players will ever even attempt Sid and last to an age where Artillery are useful (Industrial). Most of the players probably play Regent-Demigod, and on these levels you almost always last to the Industrial Age. And since Artillery now kill more units, these levels are easier.

Maybe on Sid the advantage is helpful, but on the other levels it is too much.

 

[Bad Brett]

Yep. Of course. I actually don't enjoy playing on Deity level. It's not that I don't last, if you concentrate all the time it's quite easy to be a medium advanced civilization... the game is probably most fun att emperor (or maybe demi-god, haven't tried that one).

Anyway, my point was, if you think the game gets to easy, why not change difficulty level? Like you said, the ones who master sid level are few, so if you think it's too easy, go ahead and play that level instead.

 

[Bad Brett]

Originally posted by Bad Brett
Yep. Of course. I actually don't enjoy playing on Deity level. It's not that I don't last, if you concentrate all the time it's quite easy to be a medium advanced civilization... the game is probably most fun att emperor (or maybe demi-god, haven't tried that one).

Anyway, my point was, if you think the game gets to easy, why not change difficulty level? Like you said, the ones who master sid level are few, so if you think it's too easy, go ahead and play that level instead.

 

[Dearmad]

Noone of this answers the question: Does the AI use Arty more effectively now or not!?!? Do they use it at all??

Why not in the editor open up a "must be escorted" option for LAND units or something...

 

[cgannon64]

You're right, you can always move up difficultly level. But this change makes the overall game slightly easier, which is never a good thing.

IIRC, if I understand the artillery combat system correctly, this also gives you a much higher chance of hitting a unit. It used to be that when you fired you could hit a unit, hit a pop point, hit an improvement, or miss. Now you can only hit a unit or miss, giving you a higher chance of hitting anything.

 

[Dearmad]

Huh? Seems like it would be a 50/50 break rather than a 75% (hit something)/25% miss break- so you should miss more if it's calculated that way.

Anyway, I'd also like to see this fixed back to the old way OR open it up in the EDITOR! For crying out loud, Firzxis keeps changing crap that isn't available to us in the editor, let US decide!

 

[Jaybe]

Perhaps someone should set up a scenario with Collateral Damage enabled for artillery (and bombers), to see if that has an affect upon cities.