Firaxis - How many is sufficient???

[DrJambo]

Everyone should take a read at Catt's post. For me that sums up culture flipping and details the best ways to prevent such annoyances occurring.

As mentioned by Zach, the way to have dealt with it, if you'd been lucky enough to get a few more turns would have been to mash the surrounding cities to prevent the pressure form the tiles you don't control being such a heavy factor (10 tiles!). One of the reasons i think culture flipping was introduced was to prevent just this.... attacking deep within the heart of enemy territory to claim enemy cities. Most wars are fought with the external borders advancing/retreating, very rarely are countries taken from the inside first!

Even if you had razed it and used your own settler, i don't think it would have made too much difference. The pressure from the close proximity of American's Capital and the tiles you don't control would still have been there.

Much better would have been to attack one of the American's peninsular cities further away from their Capital and nearer yours and your own borders....or just to have razed the *******

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Zach: you do ahve a tendency to dream up Holywood movies I'd like to watch them, too!

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by =DOCTOR=


Most wars are fought with the external borders advancing/retreating, very rarely are countries taken from the inside first!

So MacArthur's army should have disappeared at Inchon after his amphibious assault in the Korean war? It seems to me that in that case, his army did not disappear.

Should the Germans have attacked the Maginot Line frontally, and, only after it was destroyed, attack the heart of France? You see what I am getting at.

There are risks involved in such an attack, of course, but Killer's army disappearing the way it did is militarily outrageous, IMO.

I'm sure Killer will be more likely to abandon a city in the future after he captures it, but it seems to me that in doing so he is in a sense admitting that this particular aspect of civ3 is not working the way a reasonable human being would expect.

For the record, I have never lost a city to a culture flip but AI cities have flipped to me. I think that is because I build libraries and universities, but not everyone has the same approach, and the game should not punish those who play a different way so harshly.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
So MacArthur's army should have disappeared at Inchon after his amphibious assault in the Korean war? It seems to me that in that case, his army did not disappear.

Should the Germans have attacked the Maginot Line frontally, and, only after it was destroyed, attack the heart of France? You see what I am getting at.

Both are examples of well-prepared and overwhelming force. In the German attack on France, they were in Paris in just a few weeks (less than one turn), the entire country vanquished. Inchon was an especially risky operation, however flipping was not an issue as they were recapturing territory that was (for the purposes of the game abstraction) culturally on the Allied side. The enemy capital was in the North.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Both are examples of well-prepared and overwhelming force. In the German attack on France, they were in Paris in just a few weeks (less than one turn). Inchon was an especially risky operation, however flipping was not an issue as they were recapturing territory that was (for the purposes of the game abstraction) culturally on the American side. The enemy capital was in the North.

The German attack on France was brilliant, but the British and French could have made the invaders suffer a lot more. The German armor at that time was well-organized but weakly armored.

If the Inchon battle occured in a civ3 game Seoul and Inchon would culturally be North Korean but the citizens would be South Korean, but I would have to apply the formula to see if it would flip. If the city had more North Koreans in the real battle and Macarthur hadn't won the "hearts and minds" of the people, his army still would not disappear.

I am not saying the city couldn't flip in Killer's game, I'm just objecting to the army disappearing. Maybe the game designers didn't think this through. It's almost like a cunning trap that the game plays on an attacker, with no warning. I don't think the game designers thought about it in this way, though.

 

[sabo]

Originally posted by =DOCTOR=
Most wars are fought with the external borders advancing/retreating, very rarely are countries taken from the inside first!

I beg to differ Doctor. In early WWII Germany loved to get behind the lines with tanks, also there was Vietnam, Yugosloavia, and when Russia invaded Afganistan back in 1980, the first city they took was Kabul which is smack dab in the middle of the country....

 

[sabo]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
For the record, I have never lost a city to a culture flip but AI cities have flipped to me. I think that is because I build libraries and universities, but not everyone has the same approach, and the game should not punish those who play a different way so harshly.

Do you play a religeous civ sumthinelse? I like playing the Germans I cities hardly ever culture flip to me, and I build all the cultural buildings (just so I won't get culture flipped) as soon as they are available

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
If the Inchon battle occured in a civ3 game Seoul and Inchon would culturally be North Korean but the citizens would be South Korean, but I would have to apply the formula to see if it would flip. If the city had more North Koreans in the real battle and Macarthur hadn't won the "hearts and minds" of the people, his army still would not disappear.

No, because MacArthur had a very large army. It did not stop the communists from trying to infiltrate the Allied lines and attempting to disrupt the Allied advance. There were communist "resisters" throughout South Korea.

Nevertheless, you can see how the abstraction breaks down at some point. Was South Korea Korean? Or part of Western Civilization? Something in between? Or something else entirely?

 

[DrJambo]

Originally posted by =DOCTOR=
Most wars are fought with the external borders advancing/retreating, very rarely are countries taken from the inside first!

If you read what i said, i did not state that this never happened... i merely said that the majority of serious warfare occurs at the borders of the warring nations..

Of course there are examples of when attacking from the inside occurs!

Plus Russia and Germany lost the wars against Afghanistan and the Allies respectively.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
Catt: very good point, I was sure it wouldn't flip!!! I had a settler on the boat, i just wanted to heal my troops 1 turn, and I did need to keep the city to form the Army! I got the leader on taking it!

I was absolutely sure 8 was enough for 1 guy!!!!!! That's my entire gripe here: you need an absurd amount of troops for that 1 pop! I was expecting the number to be 5 (after all, that would be 50 units for a size 10 town), so i threw in 3 more!

I assume that, upon capturing the city, you could have (1) moved the leader into the city, (2) built the army, (3) moved the army out of the city, and (4) abandoned the city (optional), all on the same turn. I think the risk-taking occured when you tried for that one full turn of healing time -- and it was a big risk!

Don't get me wrong -- I absolutely sympathize with your situation -- I have had one or two diasters nearly as painful as yours, and it made me want to throw my laptop across the room (which is a pretty good indication that we both really enjoy / become deeply involved in the game ). I posted just so that even those who hate flipping and/or don't understand it can see that there are tactics one can employ to significantly eliminate the frustration of flipping and vanishing garrisons (it doesn't by any means eliminate the "reality" arguments that flipping is non-realistic or non-historical).

I can certainly empathize with the view that 8 (or even 15) units is insufficient. In fact, I don't think Zachriel's estimate of 20 is sufficient to absolutely prevent a flip. I think it's somewhere more like 30 or even more.

IIRC (and someone please correct me if I'm way off-base) in order to be assured beyond a shadow of a doubt that no flip will occur, you need at least 2 units (with an attack of at least 1) for every enemy citizen / tile. In your example, I count 10 enemy tiles and one citizen, or 11 "enemies." Which would mean 22 units. But wait - again IIRC - the "2 per enemy" rule of thumb assumes rough parity on total cultural values of the two civs and rough parity on distance from the capitols. In your case, you pointed out that America had a sizeable cultural advantage, and that the conquered city was much closer to America's capitol. So I think the "2 per enemy" moves up past "2" (just don't know how far).

I run this "quick and dirty" calculation of "2 per enemy" in my head when playing -- when the calculations come up against a "suggested garrison force" as in your example, I simply consider the city irrepressible -- I simply can't / won't bring a force sufficient to prevent a flip and will instead employ the tactics I posted in my first post. BTW, if a city (from your settler or Abe's captured city) on that location is critical to the campaign, I think the only way to secure it with some degree of comfort is to relieve the cultural border pressure from America -- either through (1) luck, via the time to build a temple / library and generate a border expansion before a flip, or (2) the razing of nearby American cities.

Finally, 2 points on Firaxis' implementation of the cultural flipping concept -- (1) for something as potentially game-changing / frustrating as it is, I think they should have very clearly in the manual and civilopedia indicated how (through occupying force size) one could absolutely prevent a flip (which they've now largely done through the forums, but not elsewhere); and (2) I believe that they have indicated that they are generally happy with the culture flipping implementation but were lowering the minimum garrison size needed to prevent a flip -- this in the soon-to-be-released patch -- we will have to see exactly how far the bar is lowered, and how crystal clear the stated rules will be (i.e., the "total culture" and "palace distance" factors are very fuzzy variables today).

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Catt, thanx for your elaborate replies.

I think you'd agree also that the number of units should be correlated to the map size, perhaps via OCN? Because a 5-town-empire simply cannot support the same force as a 100 city one.....

and I'd really like to see the very clearly stated rules you ask for

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
I think you'd agree also that the number of units should be correlated to the map size, perhaps via OCN? Because a 5-town-empire simply cannot support the same force as a 100 city one.....

Hadn't occured to me before (nor have I seen the suggestion posted anywhere but in this thread), but a GREAT idea. (although it is undoubtedly too late for a change in the soon-to-be-released patch if Firaxis didn't already think of it )

Playing tiny maps into the modern era (large cities) would seem to all but preclude capturing and holding enemy cities without some sort of OCN modifier.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by sabo10


Do you play a religeous civ sumthinelse? I like playing the Germans I cities hardly ever culture flip to me, and I build all the cultural buildings (just so I won't get culture flipped) as soon as they are available

Right now I'm playing with the zulu but I still build a lot of libraries and universities.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by =DOCTOR=


If you read what i said, i did not state that this never happened... i merely said that the majority of serious warfare occurs at the borders of the warring nations..

I agree with that statement of course.

Killer said his move was from a desperate situation in which he was already losing, so I was defending Killer's attack from what appeared to be criticism that was a little lacking in sympathy and understanding.

I thought about how I would feel if my army disappeared like that....

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Catt


I believe that they have indicated that they are generally happy with the culture flipping implementation but were lowering the minimum garrison size needed to prevent a flip -- this in the soon-to-be-released patch -- we will have to see exactly how far the bar is lowered, and how crystal clear the stated rules will be (i.e., the "total culture" and "palace distance" factors are very fuzzy variables today).

Good news!!!

I had not seen that yet. IMO they should consider kicking out the garrison instead of destroying it, though. I think that little feature is going to cause continued frustration if they don't change it.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Catt

So I think the "2 per enemy" moves up past "2" (just don't know how far).

Knowing that, only a quick glimpse at Killer's game will reveal that he was in a very dangerous situation.

On the "just don't know how far" issue. You're right! I don't think anyone really knows for sure. I find that 2-1 works in almost any situation, though I strive for more assurance (3-1 or 4-1) whenever possible.

Is there anyway to know the culture of the rival Civs?

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Zachriel
Knowing that, only a quick glimpse at Killer's game will reveal that he was in a very dangerous situation.

On the "just don't know how far" issue. You're right! I don't think anyone really knows for sure. I find that 2-1 works in almost any situation, though I strive for more assurance (3-1 or 4-1) whenever possible.

Is there anyway to know the culture of the rival Civs?

I agree - Killer was in serious danger. And I also agree that no one knows for sure (and I'm not sure that the game is enhanced by knowing for sure.)

I don't have any magic as far as divining the total culture of a rival civ -- I look at the histograph chart and I pay attention to my advisor's choice of words ("Our people are impressed with . . ." versus "Our people are unimpressed with . . . " versus "Our people are dismissive of . . ." -- or the more unpleasant reports when my civ is at a cultural disadvantage!).

Zachriel - great summary of the GOTM - I always very much enjoy your summaries, but you may have outdone yourself with the most recent . I won't post a link (but Zachriel will?), but the most recent summary is not only entertaining but also provides some excellent adivce / tactics regarding flipping.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by sumthinelse


Good news!!!

I had not seen that yet. IMO they should consider kicking out the garrison instead of destroying it, though. I think that little feature is going to cause continued frustration if they don't change it.

The reason Firaxis has NOT done that is the garrison would just march right in and retake the city - making the flip pointless to begin with.

Of course it IS pointless, and absurd.

So all Firaxis can do in game terms is make it even more ridiculous: the city does not only flip the garrison VANISHES!

The entire concept was fatally flawed from the start and should be EUTHANIZED.

As for spending my time trying to calculate some crap about Culture levels between civs, this is more pure Fantasy dreamed up by Firaxis. Never happened. And it's dumb even just in game terms.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Catt
I won't post a link (but Zachriel will?), but the most recent summary is not only entertaining but also provides some excellent adivce / tactics regarding flipping.

Here is the GOTM8, German Valor:

http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/GOTM8/index.htm

There is some interesting points made by Bismark on the problem of city flipping and control of unruly populations.

But wait till you see GOTM9! I have named a special military maneuver in honor of Lt. 'Killer' M. and his valiant band of adventurers. But you'll have to wait a few days for my report to appear in the GOTM *Spoiler* thread.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Zouave


The reason Firaxis has NOT done that is the garrison would just march right in and retake the city - making the flip pointless to begin with.

Not necessarily. When a city flips, it gets a defensive unit, and the AI can draft one more unit and rush another (if enough pop/gold and reqs met), total 3 defenders. If they were to kick the garrison outside the civ borders that could make it even harder to retake.

But they are probably unlikely to adopt my suggestion. So I believe there will be continued unhappiness every time this little trap springs.