fireball
- Thread starter Quetz
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Cuteunit
Danse Macabre
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Elves can't build catapults. No fireball bombards equals no city capture for them. Maybe earth... but I'll stay away from that, as I hate Summons.
Fireball is 4 fire damage and inflicts collateral, which is why they're good to begin with. M2 summons are often 3-5 str ( why are they ever 3? ugh, looking at you lightning elemental) and don't cause collateral, making them generally quite useless when you consider it took dozens of turns to rank up your adept to Summoner and it has to repel or overwhelm a stack of Champions it took your enemy 3 turns each to build.
Fireball is 4 fire damage and inflicts collateral, which is why they're good to begin with. M2 summons are often 3-5 str ( why are they ever 3? ugh, looking at you lightning elemental) and don't cause collateral, making them generally quite useless when you consider it took dozens of turns to rank up your adept to Summoner and it has to repel or overwhelm a stack of Champions it took your enemy 3 turns each to build.
Roghar
Warlord
no reason it couldn't be earth sorcery rather than summons, rust really should be water 
Quetz
The Tallest Lilliputian
You gave every reason why I would like to see it moved to something else.
Elves could still get it another way, like through earth. At least there would be some reason to use SOMETHING else besides fireballs, for everyone, not just the elves. It's like you said "Golly, elves wouldn't get every benefit of the entirely unthematic spell that is really the only one worth using at that level anyways!" They could just use whatever it was switched to for sieges, and preferably lose fire mana from their palace. Just my opinion, but there is just too much fire in the game. The bad guys use it, the good guys use it, the Elves use it, etc etc etc.
And if the palace was changed, they could even still get the collateral damage from fireball by building a node, just like everyone else. I am really not sure what your point is in regards to the OP.
I find summoners to be extremely effective, myself. Sand lions and the death 2 summons work great for me. However I do think the 3 str ones could be bumped up a bit, or at least given more affinity.
For the record, I hardly ever bother bombarding a city one way or the other.. summons and mass damage/disease spells like Air 3, Contagion, and Ring of Flames do the job just fine without the bother of lugging around a catapult. And yes, I only play on Emporer and above.
Ecofarm
Deity
Note: lightning elementals have blitz. With enough damage via maelstrom or (especially) Crush... each gets 2 kills. If you plan for Air 3, maelstrom, they might come in handy to mop up all the units at 1 hp around your archmages. Of course, that conjurer could be a fireball mage instead...
R0GERSHRUBBER
Shrubber
I'm also going to weigh in and say that Fireball is too strong in its current incarnation and should lose Bombard.
I would support giving the Kikijub a Bombard ability (and a new name!), as well as the Treant.
Also, the Lightning Elemental desperately needs some kind of improvement. Blitz is only useful if it can survive the first attack: how about a very high Withdrawal rate and several First Strikes (to ensure that it can do damage on the later attacks)?
I would support giving the Kikijub a Bombard ability (and a new name!), as well as the Treant.
Also, the Lightning Elemental desperately needs some kind of improvement. Blitz is only useful if it can survive the first attack: how about a very high Withdrawal rate and several First Strikes (to ensure that it can do damage on the later attacks)?
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
I agree with the sentiment that bombard is a bit overpowered. It does seem to be better suited as an ability for Earth mana spells.
As it is right now, Fire mana is always the first node to be built (if it is not available through the palace. The reason for this is that a tier II spell gives free siege weapons that can be rebuilt outsidde the enemy city every turn. There is no other spell in the game that is any where near that powerful. Meteor Storm is 3 times as abusive.
To me, collateral damage is enough to make both Fireball and Meteor Storm attractive spells. Fire might still be the first mana that a player goes after, but it will not be nearly as overpowered.
Moving the city bombardment spells to the Earth mana sphere will make it much more apealing. As it is right now, the only time I get Earth mana for my mages is for city tethered casters that already have Mind II (for Inspiration) and Spirit II (for Hope) so that they have another spell to cast on the city.
As it is now, my promotion path for combat mages is to get Fire I-III promotions as they are available and Combat I-V promotions to increase the damage that they deal out. I also promote three of my Fire mages with Death mana so that I can create Liches and get 6 Archmages as the result.
Having the two abilities split will make the player have to choose which is more important to promote or require them to build additional casters to balance their forces. It would be a lot more dynamic. It would also take more levels for a single mage to get all of the promotions necessary to decimate a city.
The overpowered nature of Fire mana is multiplyed by the fact that the AI doesn't know how to use it. Right now, spells are kind of like an exploit for the humab player.
As it is right now, Fire mana is always the first node to be built (if it is not available through the palace. The reason for this is that a tier II spell gives free siege weapons that can be rebuilt outsidde the enemy city every turn. There is no other spell in the game that is any where near that powerful. Meteor Storm is 3 times as abusive.
To me, collateral damage is enough to make both Fireball and Meteor Storm attractive spells. Fire might still be the first mana that a player goes after, but it will not be nearly as overpowered.
Moving the city bombardment spells to the Earth mana sphere will make it much more apealing. As it is right now, the only time I get Earth mana for my mages is for city tethered casters that already have Mind II (for Inspiration) and Spirit II (for Hope) so that they have another spell to cast on the city.
As it is now, my promotion path for combat mages is to get Fire I-III promotions as they are available and Combat I-V promotions to increase the damage that they deal out. I also promote three of my Fire mages with Death mana so that I can create Liches and get 6 Archmages as the result.
Having the two abilities split will make the player have to choose which is more important to promote or require them to build additional casters to balance their forces. It would be a lot more dynamic. It would also take more levels for a single mage to get all of the promotions necessary to decimate a city.
The overpowered nature of Fire mana is multiplyed by the fact that the AI doesn't know how to use it. Right now, spells are kind of like an exploit for the humab player.
it-ogo
Hedgehog
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 589
That is good!
Overall summoned creatures are not so different and specific as they can be. Some variants (assuming stage III to be improved version of stage II), including what is already implemented.
- bombardment
- collateral
- scout (fast, commando, can not attack; III - centry, can see invizibility)
- raider (hidden nationality, III - commando)
- recon sweeps
- buffing casters (can cast random buffing spell III - of higher level)
- assault (first strikes, III - withdrawal, blitz)
- protection (immobile but strong, III - guardsman)
- flying
- cursing (II - withered III -+ Enervation, Diseased)
- medic (III - Heal)
...
May be designed enough for different mana branches.
Extention for different branches may mean not only mobility but, for example, an increasing number of summoned creatures (scout).
xienwolf
Deity
Aye, more functional abilities than just raw fighting is desperately needed in the summons. Otherwise the most useful summon will always be a sorcery spell (fireball/meteor, because no matter the strength, it still can always do some collateral damage, and bombard).
Of course, anything that you allow to be summoned must be balanced for the fact that it is disposable, and essentially unlimited. Hence thier current relatively low strengths. But better move and other capabilities are not something which will neccessarily overpower the summons.
Of course, anything that you allow to be summoned must be balanced for the fact that it is disposable, and essentially unlimited. Hence thier current relatively low strengths. But better move and other capabilities are not something which will neccessarily overpower the summons.
Frallan_PrU
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2007
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- 26
Due to limitations in spells a mage can hold in hid head (yes old D&D) I think that the str and def of the arcane units is good. But I would like a spell that enhances the str and def of a mage. This would mean that the mage could either use a summons, a fireball or an enchantment or load up on att and def.
This would represent the spells that a mage would walk around with normally like 2 magic missiles a charm creature some sleep, fireballs and lightningballs and a few other tricks.
So my suggestion would be a spell that gives:
+1 att +1 def and 1 battle per rnd for a adept
+3 att +3 def and 2 battles per rnd for a summoner or mage
+5 att +5 def and 3 battles per rnd for an archmage
The reason is that in all fantasy games and litterature where ou have the possibility to avoid fighting with an archmage you probably do. I mean these guys lay waste to armies and cities alone if they want to so why should a troop with sword wielding ordinary soldiers stand more then 50% chance against em. At least an archmage should have like 90% chance to retreat representing those last beads of teleport, the safe haven and that last resort lightningbolt up the sleeve.
Gamewise this would lso give the possibility to use these units.
My 0.02€
/F
This would represent the spells that a mage would walk around with normally like 2 magic missiles a charm creature some sleep, fireballs and lightningballs and a few other tricks.
So my suggestion would be a spell that gives:
+1 att +1 def and 1 battle per rnd for a adept
+3 att +3 def and 2 battles per rnd for a summoner or mage
+5 att +5 def and 3 battles per rnd for an archmage
The reason is that in all fantasy games and litterature where ou have the possibility to avoid fighting with an archmage you probably do. I mean these guys lay waste to armies and cities alone if they want to so why should a troop with sword wielding ordinary soldiers stand more then 50% chance against em. At least an archmage should have like 90% chance to retreat representing those last beads of teleport, the safe haven and that last resort lightningbolt up the sleeve.
Gamewise this would lso give the possibility to use these units.
My 0.02€
/F
Cuteunit
Danse Macabre
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- Sep 5, 2007
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- 618
I just find it odd that outside of Fire mana, in a clearly High Magic setting, magic is so inferior to just throwing stacks of quick hammerred melees at something. ( and fire's Summons are downright terrible.. how can the eye of sauron be 3 str? its less powerful than death 1 sorc...)
Fire could be dialed down a little but I'd like the other, utterly wimp spheres like air/summoning in general to get a leg up. Lightning Bolt, dammnit. ( poor amurites though.. if fire gets nerfed, I really think their melees or firebows could tolerate getting some fire affinity)
Come to think of it.... * goes off to my enchantment mana thread*
Fire could be dialed down a little but I'd like the other, utterly wimp spheres like air/summoning in general to get a leg up. Lightning Bolt, dammnit. ( poor amurites though.. if fire gets nerfed, I really think their melees or firebows could tolerate getting some fire affinity)
Come to think of it.... * goes off to my enchantment mana thread*
Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
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- Dec 8, 2001
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- 3,718
Hear hear! I second Rogersh... I third ito-... I fourth xienwolf's suggestion:
A Summoned creature is a wonderful opportunity to bring in some flavorful, odd, and sometimes even useful extra/special ability.
I (and my little LAN group) have been playing with a restricted mana house rule: You get your starting 2 or 3, +2 more, and any you can trade for or get via buildings. We did that to try to bring out more "flavor" from the various races. For the most part it's been very successful. (ie, fun.) Each civ's mages "feel" very different in play and lead to different strategies/uses. But conjurers/summoners still seem pretty much the same.
Happily, the supplied editor makes the mod fantastically easy to tune to our preferences, so no complaints!
it-ogo
Hedgehog
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 589
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
I think you eed Excel 2007. I remember reading that there is limit to the number of columns (256 I think) that Excel 2003 can handle, and FfH has expanded to use more columns than that.
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
Maybe teh azer could cast a weaker version of ring of fire
and i think colatteral damage or bombard would be good for the kijikub (earth 2 summon)
and i think colatteral damage or bombard would be good for the kijikub (earth 2 summon)
Ecofarm
Deity
Why not just give 3-4 other manas some bombard with tier 2 spells? That would add variety while reducing the 'mandatory fireball' factor.
Would the new magic bombarders suddenly negate the use of fireballs? Probably not. Especially since you can set the percentage to balance.
Would the new magic bombarders suddenly negate the use of fireballs? Probably not. Especially since you can set the percentage to balance.
I've got a question (but maybe outdated) some of my summons comes with a "free promo" promotion... But I can't use it, until next turn... turn in which the summon as already disappeared .. (I think it is the imp : entropyII)
Does it rings something to people? is that already corrected? or is ther a way to go around it ?
Does it rings something to people? is that already corrected? or is ther a way to go around it ?
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