Firebug's Civilizations

[Firebug]

I love all these ideas, but a "trying to fall asleep thought" i had last night was this.
Could you puppet city states with culture? Similiar to diplomatic marriage.
Perhaps you can expend a social policy to puppet an allied city state. Instead of gaining a new social policy.
then the other half of the UA can be that each allied city state increases naval production by +5% and each puppeted city increases naval production by +10%. (Max 60%)
Then you could have the Boule UB that gains some kind of bonus from puppets. Then instead of gaining a free settler if you go down the Liberty path, you get a free Great Writer which you can expend for culture.

 

[GPuzzle]

Could you puppet city states with culture? Similiar to diplomatic marriage.

Technically you can, it's just an absurdly long and complicated path that involves deleting the City-State and everything it has and replacing it with another City that you own plus the appropiate units and buildings. Unless you want to create a separate unit that can puppet City-States, place that one in City-State range, and then expend it through Lua, but that'd wouldn't be exactly pretty.

Would it be possible for City States to gift buildings to your cities?

Technically yes (they wouldn't actually grant buildings themselves, but it'd just be a heavily modified version of Leugi's Tupis), and would be rather fun, being able to be modified for every different City-State ally - so Mercantile City-States could grant Gold buildings, Maritime City-States buildings such as Lighthouses and Harbors...

 

[DarthStarkiller]

All this talk about Malta in JFD's thread reminded me of something: is Malta getting an update?

 

[Firebug]

Maybe
I think Jean could use a makeover. and it needs balancing, i think. Although general consensus was it was suprisingly balanced.



Does anyone think that the city states gifting buildings thing would be a good representation of Athens? i'm not so sure.

 

[TranquilSilence]

Does anyone think that the city states gifting buildings thing would be a good representation of Athens? i'm not so sure.

It kind of reflects how the Periclean building programs relied immensely on the wealth gained from the Athenian Empire - and it would certainly be unique and cool, but I feel the same could be represented by additional gold from Puppets/City states which would then contribute to Building production.

That could be a tad more boring though.

 

[Firebug]

Ecclesia:
Upon adopting a new social policy choose between gaining influence with all City States equal to twice your Capital's population or a boost of culture towards your next social policy equal to your global science output. (Can't build settlers or annex cities)

UU - Stick with Hippeis or think of something else?

The Acropolis (Palace) - As well as the usual Palace bonuses, it yield an additional +1 science and +1 culture as well as +1 Delegate.

People of Athens (even the poorer ones) could come together and partake in decisions as a democracy, thanks to their regular assemblies. Of course, there are way too many things that they likely discussed to put into a UA. So to balance it, it focuses on the City State diplomacy we've mentioned before.
A population of 10 will give all known city states 20 influence.
or, a science output of 100 will give you 100 towards your next social policy.

It seems suitable to replace the Palace, being the seat of an empire, since Athens is a center for democracy. Of all the Acropolei in Greece, the Acropolis of Athens is the most widely accepted as being called The Acropolis.

Athenian Triremes were superior to others, which would make it a good UU. If it weren't for the fact it hasn't got a unique name. It is just a Trireme.

 

[DarthStarkiller]

The main problem with Malta though is that the alpha doesn't work. Is there any quick fix for that?

Athenian Triremes were superior to others, which would make it a good UU. If it weren't for the fact it hasn't got a unique name. It is just a Trireme

Well, you could always go the generic route and use the greek word for trireme.

 

[TranquilSilence]

I feel like a unique palace is kinda weird - I mean you are essentially giving the civ an additional UA, given that they will always have the palace and never have to build it. Seems like it would detract the fun of unlocking and building your UB, IMHO.

Also, if you want to avoid overlap with MC's Athens - they are already getting some kind of trireme replacement, according to the wiki.

 

[Firebug]

Yeah, maybe i'll avoid a Palace replacement. The other option was a Bouleuterion, a Senate House. Not sure what it would replace right now.

If not a Trireme replacement, perhaps Epibatai (Marines) who can replace Spearman and have defense while embarked and give a combat strength bonus to melee ships they start their turn sharing a tile with.

 

[Firebug]

Pericles
Ecclesia:
Upon adopting a new social policy gain culture equal to your global science output. Can expend Great Writers, Musicians and Writers to puppet or annex city states. (Can't build settlers)

Epibatai Spearman
extra combat strength, sight and movement while embarked. Can defend itself when embarked. If the Epibatai starts its turn on a naval melee unit, the naval unit receives +50% combat strength that turn.

Neosoikoi Harbor
Available sooner, at Optics. as well as the usual harbor bonuses it increases naval production by +15% and +15 xp for naval units trained in this city. +3 city defense and +30 hp.​

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Ecclesia was the principal assembly of the democracy of ancient Athens during its "Golden Age". Pericles ruling for a later part of the Golden Age, this later part being known as the Age of Pericles. Open to all male citizens with 2 years of military service. In 594 BC, it was opened to all Athenian citizens to participate, regardless of class.
Only one city means Athens won't need to worry about policy costs increasing, mix this with the UA carrying over culture (similar to an aqueduct, but not the smae) equal to your science and Athens will be on the road to cultural superiority.

Epibatai were Greek Marines. Hoplites aboard Triremes, ready for boarding action.
The combat strength boost will give Athen's its much needed naval superiority. The Epibatai themselves are no different to spearman while on land, but at sea they're practically a naval unit.

Neosoikoi were hangars built to support a massive amount of triremes. In Piraeus, the port of Athens, up to 750 triremes could be sheltered in nearly 500 neosokoi. City connections aren't needed for one-city civs, so the Harbor is replaced by a naval equivalent to the Barracks and Seaport with a slightly weaker defense bonus then the Walls (just over half).

 

[SamuraiOutcast]

That UA is pretty powerful as it stands.

For both of the "discovering new techs, gain influence..." they are way too powerful to be combined with another UA. You'd be far better off doing: "Upon entering a new era, receive 30 influence with all known city-states". Personally I'd go with the first or last possibilities for a second half of those.

 

[Uighur_Caesar]

Should Athens really be a one city civ? There was an Athenian Empire after all. I just generally dislike one city civs and I really don't like giving them a UB since they'll only be able to use it in one city, especially in Athens' case since puppets can't build unit so the UB is irrelevant to them.

 

[TranquilSilence]

Yeah, that is a fair point - though the Athenian empire was composed primarily of what were essentially puppeted City States bound to Athens for protection, and then by force and debt. To my knowledge the Athenians didn't settle any other colonies or whatnot.

That said, I guess it depends on the focus of the civ. I'd be all for either but I certainly feel that as a One City civ it should have some focus on bullying/pledging to protect city states, reflecting on the original purpose of the Delian League.

It'd be cool if you could have Athenian puppets generate Naval units automatically if they have built the UB, sort of like how Tarcisio's Spain gets the Walloon Gaurds passively from puppets.

In regards to Firebug's earlier question about what the Boule would replace, it makes perfect sense for it to replace an amphitheatre (or a magistrates' court with RtP), given that it was a point of gathering for large amounts of the Athenian people to listen to Orations and make rulings etc.

Really nice Infographic by the way, I'm a big fan.

 

[Firebug]

I do feel as though people have completely forgotten my origins. The Greek States pack (all my Greek States so far) is being made over time to represent all the major CITIES. Not their apparent "empires", which of course weren't Empires, they were alliances.
The exception to this "Greek States are one-city civs" thing is Megara (because they were famous for their colonies) and Thebes (i got too much from the commenters about not being able to settle). Epirus will also be able to settle cities when i get around to it (but thats less of a state and more of a Kingdom), and when i get round to turning the currently removed Alexander into Macedonia, that'll also have multiple cities.

I am creating a one-city civ. There is no argument over it (unless you make a really good argument or commenters bug me into making it settle cities). They will spread similarly to Venice, through city states.
I see no issue with a one-city civilization having a unique building. Especially since it makes a practically useless building (for a one city civ) into a much more powerful version. My UB and UU are FINAL until release. The art is finished, i'm just looking for a suitable way to expand the UA.

 

[TranquilSilence]

I think Uighur was moreso talking about the fact that since Puppets cannot generate Military units, that half of the UB will be useless in any city apart from Athens.

That said, it's your civ and you are obviously settled in your design, so I presume there's no more discussion to be had.

Best of luck with the release, looking forward to seeing how the civ ends up.

 

[ruhrgebietheld]

I think the best of the UA ideas is the one that lets you expend great generals and great admirals to acquire city-states. Part of the reason that you've gotten so much flak from commenters about your no settlers civs is that they all force you to conquer foreign cities or city-states in order to expand your empire at all. Quite frankly, doing so with just a single city simply doesn't make for an enjoyable playing experience normally. If your one city is hyper military focused like your Sparta civ, it can still be enjoyable to play as, since the uniques of that civ make it a pretty much absolute certainty that you'll be able to conquer the first several cities you desire. Barring that though, no-settler civs are usually only enjoyable if they have a means of acquiring additional cities through some means other than conquest. Venice works as a civ only because of the Merchant of Venice, allowing you to annex city-states without having to build up a large army to do so. If it didn't have that, it would be a terrible civ that's not enjoyable to play as. You seem to overlook that when designing your no-settler Greek civs, which is why it probably seems like you catch unwarranted flak for them. You're unknowingly designing civs that introduce an element that makes the playing experience unenjoyable without properly compensating for that, in order to make the playing experience still enjoyable. Your Argos and Sparta civs have other elements that still make playing as them enjoyable, although they have no peaceful ways of acquiring new cities. So out of all the proposed second parts to the Athens UA, the only one that looks like it would make the no-settler playing experience still enjoyable is the one allowing you to expend great generals and great admirals to acquire city states. Although those are both combat-focused GP, so it might be better to allow cultural GP's to be expended to annex the city-states.

 

[Firebug]

Thanks for the feedback, i think i understand a bit more now.

- Expend Cultural Great People to puppet or annex friendly or allied city states.

This balances it out a bit more, since cultural great people generate a lot more often then say a Merchant of Venice. It requires you to invest in the city states before you can take them. You also have the choice of puppeting and annexing. Annexing would be better for a military approach to the game, allowing you to build your unique harbor in more places. While puppeting would keep your Empire more stable.
This is a pretty good representation as well, with Athens gaining practically all control over other Greek Polis by funding them. The cultural great people can just represent the philosophers and artists that Athens produced so many of during its Golden Age.

 

[GPuzzle]

Thanks for the feedback, i think i understand a bit more now.

- Expend Cultural Great People to puppet or annex friendly or allied city states.

This balances it out a bit more, since cultural great people generate a lot more often then say a Merchant of Venice. It requires you to invest in the city states before you can take them. You also have the choice of puppeting and annexing. Annexing would be better for a military approach to the game, allowing you to build your unique harbor in more places. While puppeting would keep your Empire more stable.
This is a pretty good representation as well, with Athens gaining practically all control over other Greek Polis by funding them. The cultural great people can just represent the philosophers and artists that Athens produced so many of during its Golden Age.

Isn't that JFD's Austria revision?

 

[Firebug]

Isn't JFD's Austria revision outdated?

 

[Tarmont]

Isn't JFD's Austria revision outdated?

HRE is. And how's that supposed to be an excuse anyway?