MaximusPlatypus
O.O
What makes Marbozirs playthroughs quite entertaining is his running comments and ridiculously fast playstyle.
First Look: Macedon with Alex the Great
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What makes Marbozirs playthroughs quite entertaining is his running comments and ridiculously fast playstyle.The Fanatical
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Hellenistic is a modern term given to that era and it refers to the spread of the greek language and culture and their use by other non greeks after the death of Alexander the Great.People of that time didn't call themselves Hellenistic.The kings of those empires spoke greek.Under their reign,greek language and culture spread to those places and coexisted with native elements.The people that colonized those empires were greeks but the conquered people weren't greeks.This makes those empires greek/hellenic.
I wish people would refrain from such statements, it always makes me want to correct them. But this would inevitably lead to a derailment of the thread.
But to answer DWilson's earlier question how far greeks spread: all over the mediterranean, even before Alexander, but with single cities (colonies) and not as an empire. Some famous examples are Marseille/Massalia, Naukratis in Egypt, Kyrene in Libya, Salamis on Cyprus and Syracusae on Sicily.
So back to Macedon and Alex. Someone proposed as his achievements to conquer a wonder with him and get your troops healed. That sounds not unlikely (if easy though). What about getting 50 boosts from conquering in one game? It could also be a completely freaking achievement like win a science victory without building a campus.
But to answer DWilson's earlier question how far greeks spread: all over the mediterranean, even before Alexander, but with single cities (colonies) and not as an empire. Some famous examples are Marseille/Massalia, Naukratis in Egypt, Kyrene in Libya, Salamis on Cyprus and Syracusae on Sicily.
So back to Macedon and Alex. Someone proposed as his achievements to conquer a wonder with him and get your troops healed. That sounds not unlikely (if easy though). What about getting 50 boosts from conquering in one game? It could also be a completely freaking achievement like win a science victory without building a campus.
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We can certainly say the Macedonians were Hellenized; we can probably say they were Hellenistic (which is to say, closely related to the Greeks); but it's premature to say they were or were not Greek. We simply don't know enough about their language--the fragments we have in Greek glosses and Macedonian personal and place names are definitely Indo-European and definitely closely related to Greek, but whether that means they spoke a divergent dialect or a separate language can't adequately be demonstrated.
Katakanja
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50 seems a bit much, wouldn't that be like more than half the tech tree? Also, you'd be more likely to have conquered all the cities in the world long before you got to that many, especially since he's focused on dominating the early game!
Perhaps around 20 instead?Leyrann
Deity
It does matter what it said in those threads, because there's plenty of evidence and stuff going around. If anything doesn't matter, it's what you think. Only historical sources matter.
The Fanatical
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Well I'm not a historian but I based my opinion on the fact that there are many proofs that they are greeks or if you prefer hellenistic and there is none that they are an entirely different civilization.Yes,unfortunately there aren't many finds about their native language but we know a few words...I will write shortly
1.Many names were very greek whereas all of their neighbors except the greeks had no greek names
2.Their cities had greek names.
3.They worshipped panhellenic gods and heroes like the rest of the greeks.They had a few different local gods but that was the case for many greek city states.For instance in Sparta they called Ares,Enyalios.They gave their gods similar adjectives along with the rest of the greeks.
4.The few words that have been found show a strong similarity/are identical with other words from north western greek dialects(epirotic,aitolian,phocian,thessalian..etc)
5.There are words that are similar with the attic dialect with only a letter to make the difference.
6.A similar exaple is Cyprus and modern Greece.Cyprus is an independant country nowdays but half of the island's residents are greeks and there is no doubt for that.If you compare the modern greek language with cypriot you will see many similarites but the languages aren't identical. Similar is the case with doric greek,ionic greek..etc.If you know modern greek and you hear their language you won't understand a thing and this is the case with many other dialects in modern Greece and the rest of the world.
7.When Ancient Thebes was in power they asked for the macedonian king's brother(Philip II) to stay as a hostage in Thebes.If Macedonians weren't greeks this would have never been asked by the Thebans.Greeks didn't have these kind of diplomatic negotiations with other non greeks.
8.All the ancient writers mention the macedonians as greeks and hellenic.
9.There is information from sources that suggests that colonies were established before the appearance of Philip and Alexander by southern greeks in macedonia.
10.Ancient Macedonians lived close to greeks and to other civilizations(Thracians,Illyrians..etc).Those non greek civilizations were influenced by greeks but we know that they spoke a different language,had different customs and the conclusion is that they clearly weren't greeks so there is evidence that suggests this...Ancient Macedonians spoke a very very related language with the rest of the greek dialects and had similar religious customs with the rest of the greeks.If they were an entirely different civilization,we would have known it.
Difference exists inside a nation in all the parts of the world and in different periods of time.
11.In what nation does the conquerors adopt the nearby civilization's language and culture and spread it to the world.Do you believe that If the Thracians had conquered the greeks and the persian empire they would have adopted the greek language and customs and then spreaded to their huge empire?I doubt it.Let's pretend that Alexander was very hellenized and he wanted to spread the greek language...Why his generals that succeed him kept greek and not their native language as the primary language in their empires.The romans and etruscans where undoubtedly heavily influenced by greeks but they were different and there is evedence that suggests this aswell.The romans kept their language and conquered many nations including the greeks.Their two cultures(roman and greek) are similar but the linguistic difference is very discernible.
1.Many names were very greek whereas all of their neighbors except the greeks had no greek names
2.Their cities had greek names.
3.They worshipped panhellenic gods and heroes like the rest of the greeks.They had a few different local gods but that was the case for many greek city states.For instance in Sparta they called Ares,Enyalios.They gave their gods similar adjectives along with the rest of the greeks.
4.The few words that have been found show a strong similarity/are identical with other words from north western greek dialects(epirotic,aitolian,phocian,thessalian..etc)
5.There are words that are similar with the attic dialect with only a letter to make the difference.
6.A similar exaple is Cyprus and modern Greece.Cyprus is an independant country nowdays but half of the island's residents are greeks and there is no doubt for that.If you compare the modern greek language with cypriot you will see many similarites but the languages aren't identical. Similar is the case with doric greek,ionic greek..etc.If you know modern greek and you hear their language you won't understand a thing and this is the case with many other dialects in modern Greece and the rest of the world.
7.When Ancient Thebes was in power they asked for the macedonian king's brother(Philip II) to stay as a hostage in Thebes.If Macedonians weren't greeks this would have never been asked by the Thebans.Greeks didn't have these kind of diplomatic negotiations with other non greeks.
8.All the ancient writers mention the macedonians as greeks and hellenic.
9.There is information from sources that suggests that colonies were established before the appearance of Philip and Alexander by southern greeks in macedonia.
10.Ancient Macedonians lived close to greeks and to other civilizations(Thracians,Illyrians..etc).Those non greek civilizations were influenced by greeks but we know that they spoke a different language,had different customs and the conclusion is that they clearly weren't greeks so there is evidence that suggests this...Ancient Macedonians spoke a very very related language with the rest of the greek dialects and had similar religious customs with the rest of the greeks.If they were an entirely different civilization,we would have known it.
Difference exists inside a nation in all the parts of the world and in different periods of time.
11.In what nation does the conquerors adopt the nearby civilization's language and culture and spread it to the world.Do you believe that If the Thracians had conquered the greeks and the persian empire they would have adopted the greek language and customs and then spreaded to their huge empire?I doubt it.Let's pretend that Alexander was very hellenized and he wanted to spread the greek language...Why his generals that succeed him kept greek and not their native language as the primary language in their empires.The romans and etruscans where undoubtedly heavily influenced by greeks but they were different and there is evedence that suggests this aswell.The romans kept their language and conquered many nations including the greeks.Their two cultures(roman and greek) are similar but the linguistic difference is very discernible.
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The Fanatical
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I think we agree on this.Historical sources matter in the end and studies made by historians contain all the information from historical sources so to me these studies matter the most.Historians have the last word on these kind of stuff.
Leyrann
Deity
And historians are divided. They're not sure wheter Macedonian was a Greek dialect or a seperate, but familiar language, the degree in which the old Greeks were speaking the truth when they said the Macedonians weren't Greeks, etc. A good argument that can be made against Macedonia being Greek is that they were a single kingdom, while Greece consisted of many city states. An argument why they would be Greek, however, would be that Alexander the Great was tutored by Aristotle. There's many arguments like that one way or the other. In the end, it's not clear, and we shouldn't act like it is. So let's settle on "maybe Greek, maybe not" instead of "people who say they aren't Greek are uneductated".
The Fanatical
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I think you're right.People have their own opinions and they should be respected.I think we agree that people can disagree.
MooFreaky
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It's a bit of a strange one. The Successor Kingdoms are classified today as a period called "the Hellenistic period" as the culture of the various leaders was Hellenic. But Greek culture was far from unified and there were vast differences. To lump Athens and Sparta together is kind of hilarious (but understandable at the same time). It is not dissimilar to how people often say "Western Culture", which has vastly different cultures under a blanket term. It doesn't really fit, but people really like labels.
But the Greeks were far more similar to one another than to Persian culture.
The soldiers definitely considered themselves in service of, and fighting for, a Macedonian Empire. We have references to soldiers and generals talking about serving the family of Phillip and/or the Empire of Alexander (often refereed to as the Empire of Philip and Alexander... as many saw Philip as the hero, with Alexander being next in line). During Alexander's wars, as well as the early successor there is clear separation and segregation between the Greeks and the Macedonians. Macedon was top dog, Greece was a conquered state. As the Successor Kingdoms period goes on the number of true Macedonians wains, so the value of Greeks goes up (it is still debated as to whether Greeks ever fought in the Macedonian phalanxes, but it seems probable down purely to numbers available) and they largely become interchangeable. By the end, they are basically the same thing.
In the homeland, however, it was a different picture. The Greeks and Macedonians remained insistent of their differences and it was largely seen as Macedon occupying Greece through force. Thus many Greeks sided with the Romans in the coming wars as they believed they would get their freedom from an occupying force.
Martinus
Emperor
I think you got it backwards. "Greek" is the modern term. The people of ancient Greece refered to themselves as "Hellenes".
To add to the naming discussion has anyone noticed the inconsistency in Sean Beans opening narration for Alexander? The text says Macedon but Sean says Macedonia im guessing at one point it was going to be Macedonia and it was too expensive to get Sean back in to rerecord one word. 
Katakanja
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To add to the naming discussion has anyone noticed the inconsistency in Sean Beans opening narration for Alexander? The text says Macedon but Sean says Macedonia im guessing at one point it was going to be Macedonia and it was too expensive to get Sean back in to rerecord one word.
Either that, or Sean Bean secretly has very strong feelings on the matter and refused to say Macedon when Firaxis provided him with the script. Maybe one of the people debating the issue here is actually him?!
Leyrann
Deity
Either that, or Sean Bean secretly has very strong feelings on the matter and refused to say Macedon when Firaxis provided him with the script. Maybe one of the people debating the issue here is actually him?!
I like this theory more. Now it's the absolute truth.
God of Kings
Ruler of all heads of state
That must explain why whenever he thinks of Scythia, he thinks of scythes.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
They were indeed! And they worked quite differently. Macedonians couldn't get priests to heal their units. Ever. But they were more resistant to conversion and had lots of military bonuses. :O
Sean Bean's laundry list of mispronunciations has left me wishing they'd went with a lesser known actor whom the voice director would have had the spine to correct.
