First Modern War?

[Hotpoint]

I've been reading about the American Civil War and I often find it being described as being the first "modern" war. I personally think that is a bit dubious given that many of the supposed attributes that made it so (Ironclads and Steam Driven Warships, Percussion Cap Rifles, Railways & Telegraphs etc) were previously used in the Crimean War, but I was wondering what other people thought.

In your opinion was the American Civil War the first Modern War? If so why do you think it was, and if not what do you think was the first modern war instead?

 

[pawpaw]

I've been reading about the American Civil War and I often find it being described as being the first "modern" war. I personally think that is a bit dubious given that many of the supposed attributes that made it so (Ironclads and Steam Driven Warships, Percussion Cap Rifles, Railways & Telegraphs etc) were previously used in the Crimean War.

you can add torpedo's, mines, balloons, gatling guns, repeating rifles,ect...

 

[Warman17]

i was thinking more along the lines of WW1.

 

[Hotpoint]

you can add torpedo's, mines, balloons, gatling guns, repeating rifles,ect...

Torpedoes, mines and balloons were also in use during the Crimean War. Not sure about when the first Repeating Rifle was used so you might be right there but both those and Gatlings were a relatively rare sight during the American Civil War and it was still a war of muzzle-loaders for the most part.

 

[pawpaw]

Torpedoes, mines and balloons were also in use during the Crimean War. Not sure about when the first Repeating Rifle was used so you might be right there but both those and Gatlings were a relatively rare sight during the American Civil War and it was still a war of muzzle-loaders for the most part.

repeating rifles were issued to engineering units--the " average" soldiers was thought to be to stupid and would shot off all his ammmo.. forgot about submarines!

 

[zeon252]

I personally believe world war one was the time when truly modern warfare began because of mass production and for the first time war became impersonal.

 

[BOTP]

Torpedoes, Rifles, mines, Ironclad ships, submarines, telegraph, railroads, all used in the Crimean war? Can you give any resources please...

Anyways, as "modern" can be interpreted in many different kind of ways I really can't give you my answer on this one. Besides weaponry, there's a who lot of things that puts ACW as the first really "modern" war: Sherman's March to the Sea (destorying your adversary's ability to wage war), Pikett's Charge (finally illustrated what "modern" weaponery can do to armies utilizing Napoleonic tactics), the Siege of Petersburg (the first hints of trench warfare), a blockade w/o privateers done entirely by Federal ships, fighting on a massive industrial scale, and the ability to outproduce your opponent. Of course, it depends on the definition of "Modern Warfare". Certainly from a tactical point of view WWI was a lot more "modern" than ACW. Then again think about what warfare is like today: technically superior, high quality armies with huge firepower try to beat rather small guerilla armies. And if any of the big boys ever decided to sort it out with arms, there wouldn't be much left after the dust settled. So really, what's modern?

 

[privatehudson]

American Civil war, others might have used some of the inventions of that period to some extent, but the ACW saw the first mass use really.

 

[Hotpoint]

Torpedoes, Rifles, mines, Ironclad ships, submarines, telegraph, railroads, all used in the Crimean war? Can you give any resources please...

Well submarines weren't used during the Crimean War but otherwise they all were. I'm actually working from memory but I reckon that if you dug around with google you could find much of this online too.

The first Ironclad was the French La Gloire which was used in this conflict. Both the British and French were using basically the same Minie ball Rifles in the Crimea as were used during the American Civil War. They shot smoothbore musket equipped Russian units to bits, the Russians lost huge numbers of men.

Not only were telegraphs in military use but they were also used by reporters to send news back home to London/Paris (battlefield photographs of course still had to be sent by ship). Rail was used to shift supplies (this was the period when Britain was the worlds leading industrial power remember).

Oh yes there was also Trench Warfare in the Crimea, both sides ended up digging in, especially during sieges, once they found out what a "modern" rifle could do to troops in the open.

More people probably died in the Crimean War than in the American Civil War. It was very bloody especially considering it only lasted two years.

 

[Dreadnought]

Franco-Prussian War: Really the first use of modern weapons and tactics.

 

[pawpaw]

The first Ironclad was the French La Gloire which was used in this conflict. .

the la glorie was laid down in 1858--after the war. however i do believe the anglo-french did armour a floating battery that was bombing russian positions because the russians were using heated shot with good results

 

[BOTP]

Well submarines weren't used during the Crimean War but otherwise they all were. I'm actually working from memory but I reckon that if you dug around with google you could find much of this online too.

The first Ironclad was the French La Gloire which was used in this conflict. Both the British and French were using basically the same Minie ball Rifles in the Crimea as were used during the American Civil War. They shot smoothbore musket equipped Russian units to bits, the Russians lost huge numbers of men.

Not only were telegraphs in military use but they were also used by reporters to send news back home to London/Paris (battlefield photographs of course still had to be sent by ship). Rail was used to shift supplies (this was the period when Britain was the worlds leading industrial power remember).

Oh yes there was also Trench Warfare in the Crimea, both sides ended up digging in, especially during sieges, once they found out what a "modern" rifle could do to troops in the open.

More people probably died in the Crimean War than in the American Civil War. It was very bloody especially considering it only lasted two years.

All the things you listed (rail road transportation, use of trenches and breastworks, ironclads, rifles, repeating rifles) Many of these were not particularly a wartime innovation, because they were used before, but certainly contributed to the blood letting in the war like had never been seen before because of the massive scale they were use, never seen before until WW1, which came decades later. The rapid advancement of weapons which far outstripped the abilities of the tactics being used to defend against them. So, is it possible or likely, that it was simply the combination of these things in the hands of two hostile and violent, unbending, opposing wills that allowed this war to become one of the bloodiest in history.

Many of Napoleon's battles produced greater casualty numbers per day (especially in Russia) and I believe even the Crimean War had days just as grisly. But neither had the relentless combat between major forces that the Civil War first produced. Everyday, somewhere in the United States between 1861 and 1865 there seems to have been a collision of signifcant numbers of men, suffering all of harms which have been cited by my fellow posters as being responsible for our phenominal death tolls. In the end, attrition, the most terrible word in the English language to a combat soldier, was the most terrible of any innovation produced by this war.

 

[mbx114]

I have to admit that my knowledge of the Crimean War is rather small. However, I do have a good knowledge of the Civil War and its weaponry and military tactics.

In the course of American History, the Civil War was the first war to feature the rifle has the prominent weapon of the infantry. Now rifles had been used in other wars (War of 1812, Mexican War), but generally smooth-bore muskets were the standard. Rifles were mostly used by specialized units (such as the famed Mississippi Rifle unit that had Jefferson Davis as its leader during the Mexican War) for specific strategic purposes.

As for the Ironclad issue, although the French may have had an Ironclad before the 1860's, I would argue as that the first modern naval battle took place in the Civil War, as it featured the first engagement between two opposing ironclad ships (USS Monitor & CSS Virginia/USS Merrimack at the Battle of Hampton Roads).

I have to ask someone who knows more about the Crimean War about how much the rifle was used within the infantry. If it was used with a similar frequency as that in the Civil War, I would conclude that it was the first modern land war (the naval war, in my opinion, is hands down the Civil War).

 

[Bugfatty300]

The U.S.S. Monitor was infact the revolutionary turn in naval warfare. Much more so than early European ironclads. It was completely self-propelled with no sailing mast and featured a mechanical revolving gun turret which sat the basis for every armament system on ships on every warship after it.

The Civil War saw the first use of anti-aircraft aswell.

 

[Adler17]

Torpedoes as self propelled underwater missiles were first developed after the ACW. In this war however there was used the spear torpedo, roughly a mine on a spear which should be brought near to the enemy ship and detonate there. They were quiete sucessfully used. However I think the gatling was also invented after the war, but I´m not sure. Repeating rifles might be used in the Crimean war earlier, but also in the ACW. In the German war, also called 7 weeks war, in 1866 the repeating rifles were used in the Prussian army for the first time. I heard from a battle against Hannoveranian forces where Prussian soldiers and militia fought. The militia was using the more accurate muskets, but whenever it was possible they took a repeating rifle from a wounded/ dead soldier. Also in the war against France German and French forces had repeating rifles. In this war the French Mitrailleuse (sp?) was used for the first time. This was an MG, but due to the lack of knowledge mostly used ineffectively as artillery. Also baloons were used for reconnaissance as well as in Italy, Crimean or ACW.
At sea the first clash of monitors was seen. Armoured ships were used in the Crimean war but there was no fight between them. Later in the war of 1866 the Italians suffered a big defeat against Austrian armoured frigates in the battle of Lissa. In the Franco- German war of 1870/ 71 there were only small fights with no real casualities of warships. The Germans had only 3 armoured frigates and two monitors. But the flagship was the biggest warship of that time the French were fearing: SMS König Wilhelm. So they did not wage a fight against the German forces. But due to having armoured ships the Danes did not enter the war.

Adler

 

[Jason The King]

Crimean War dead: 615,378
Civil War dead: 558,052

Pretty close to each other, but its not fair since Crimean War had Russia!


Sources:
http://www.regiments.org/wars/19thcent/53crimea.htm#casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

 

[stormbind]

Modern warfare is about gathering inteligence, air superiority, projection, and precision strikes.

I don't think the Crimean War, American Civil War, or Great War can claim to have demonstrated those features.

 

[Adler17]

Okay, then the first real modern war is ww2: carrier, nukes, SAMs, guided missiles and other stuff.

Adler

 

[Hotpoint]

Many of Napoleon's battles produced greater casualty numbers per day (especially in Russia) and I believe even the Crimean War had days just as grisly. But neither had the relentless combat between major forces that the Civil War first produced. Everyday, somewhere in the United States between 1861 and 1865 there seems to have been a collision of signifcant numbers of men, suffering all of harms which have been cited by my fellow posters as being responsible for our phenominal death tolls. In the end, attrition, the most terrible word in the English language to a combat soldier, was the most terrible of any innovation produced by this war.

I'm not really certain of your argument here given that more troops died in the Crimean War despite the fact it lasted only half as long as the American Civil War. This gives a much higher attritional rate for the earlier conflict surely in absolute terms if not proportionally to population.

In any case I'm not actually arguing that the Crimean War was the First Modern War I'm saying that the weaponry and tactics used in the American Civil War were more an evolutionary extension of earlier conflicts rather than the revolutionary change as some seem to believe.

 

[Cataphrak]

Okay, then the first real modern war is ww2: carrier, nukes, SAMs, guided missiles and other stuff.

Adler

Not quite, the boer war had Armoured land vehicles, commando teams, the massed use of rapid fire firearms and pinpoint cavaly raids not to mention mobile prefab headquarters