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[BTS] First strikes are insane

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by earthy, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, I just ran a test myself. Separate medic and woody healers do not stack. Wow, I always assumed woody and medic stack on different healers. That is good to know.

    However, in my test with a Medic III guy and a separate Woody III guy healing a hurt Knight separately had the exact same results. Not sure why you got different results.

    edit: yep..that adjacency effect is nice and something I really never payed much attention too. I still like the Woody III route first better as it does other nice things. But it is all about opportunity. If I don't get a warrior promoted up I don't bother.
     
  2. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Does the second part mean something like "the better you heal the earlier you can move on...?. If yes, the only relevant thing is that bonus are not cumulative, no matter who has them and how big they are.
     
  3. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Did you give just Medic III without I&2? Alone it's 15% same as Woody, yep.
    But i gave all 3 medic promos, cos well it's not possible without them ;)

    edit: strange, Medic I adds 10% and that shows in my test with healing more combined than
    Woody.

    99% sure, i double checked and Medic heals 10% (1.5 for Cavs) more than Woody for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Guy had Medic I, II & iII. Knight went from 3.2 to 6.7 in both cases.'

    edit: I did notice that your Scout had Medic III at first and then you gave him Woody III later. Are you sure you did not get the result from that.

    Okay..here are my results so you can see what I'm seeing in my test :

    Spoiler :







    edit: I tried on a Cav too and got the same results
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  5. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    @Fippy thanks
    The adjacency bonus doesn't seem to give that much use. I don't operate big stacks very close together, and majority of units don't have March, so when my stack is split on the turn I capture a city there's not really any healing going on anyway except for the units that have march.
     
  6. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Just out of curiosity, how many GGs do people around here tend to have by the end of their games? I think the most I've ever had attached to units is 4. 3 is a more typical number for the lategame.
     
  7. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Basically, yes.
     
  8. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    With an IMP leader, it is naturally much more. In a good Charly game, I settle at least 5 in the same city and attach 2 or 3 to units.
     
  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Hmm, this is interesting, because I usually settle 5 or 6 also and I almost always play Hannibal (unrestricted leaders so the civs vary). I think maybe the fact that I play on Epic speed with Aggressive AI checked (which, I think anyway, makes them build way more units) means I get more GGs than people who play on the standard settings.

    My games also typically last well into the 20th century and I think most people probably have earlier win dates.
     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Fippy & @lymond
    Thanks for testing the medic3 + woody3.
    I was under the impression that having these on two different units would stack the effect, good to know when you are wrong. :)

    Small add to this, Pro-trait can also help, as you can get medic1 from drill too, not just combat.
     
  11. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    I think (not sure) that CHA (Hannibal) does not help in farming MORE exp points, it only reduces the threshold for the individual unit to get a new promotion. Aggressive AI helps a lot! Maybe you have also built TGW what increases GG points by 100% (for fights inside of your own culture). I cannot remember a game with more than 8 or 9 GGs (except Always War).
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Ha..okay, My, I think I figured out why i was getting those results, and may have discovered something folks may not be aware of. The reason the Woody III and Medic III were healing the same in my test was that when I tested with the Woody III guy I had left the Medic III guy standing next to the hurt night. It appears that the Medic III adjacency healing bonus actually does apply to units when a Woody IIi guy is standing under him.

    When I moved the medic III guy away from the Knight the Woody III guy healed him a bit less, like in your test. So, Medic III heals a bit better than a Woody III guy.

    But it is interesting, that Medic III does have an effect on Woody III healing if adjacent. (Note: I tested with a Medic Ii guy as well since that is an adjacency bonus, but it had no effect. Only Medic III will help out a Woody III guy)

    edit: Okay..actually I think that is wrong. After further thought, I think simply the Medic III superceded the Woody III in healing the unit. So the Knight was only healed by the Medic III.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  13. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Your right...it decreases the cost of gaining promotion by 25%. It does not increase XP gained.
     
  14. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    :) Something interesting, with Woody III we could create a super healer without using a GG.
    By adding medic I, he would give the same powerful healing as Medic III does (but only on the same tile).
    For example, a Jaguar would give Medic III healing power at 10xp already.
     
  15. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    It makes sense anyway, as the best healing herbs grow in the jungles and primeval forests. And it makes more appetite on playing Monty
     
  16. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    I play a lot of LoR, in which Commando is available after Combat 3. Commando units at 17xp are very attainable. And the US UU (Jeep, not Navy Seal) comes with Commando. Fun.

    In stock BtS, my go-to move in the later game is massed Gunships paired with whatever Commando units I can come up with – usually a handful of Tanks or Mech Inf. The latter are easier to get if you start with Aggressive trait, or Charismatic.
     
  17. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    I look at healers this way.

    Medic I (10% healing) is available at 5XP (Combat I, Medic I). You can get that on a Chariot pretty easily. That’s your quick and dirty utility healer in the early game.
    Medic III (25% healing, cumulative) is available at 17XP… and you need a GG, of course. Assuming you have a GG you’re probably now at 25+ XP, but you need to get to 50 XP before you get Woody 3 and (40% healing).
    The Woodsman line does nothing for you until you get to 10XP, when you get 15% healing. You then can get to +25% healing at 26XP (no GG needed), but again, you need to get to 50XP for 40% healing. And a GG.

    So from a pure ‘how much healing does this get me’ standpoint:
    Under 5 XP – no difference
    5-9 XP – Medic line is better
    10-16 XP – Woodsman line is better
    17-25 XP, with a GG – Medic line is better
    17-25 XP, no GG - Woodsman line is better
    26-49 XP, no GG - Woodsman line is better
    26-49 XP, with a GG - Medic line is equal to Woodsman line

    Other considerations:

    Woodsman is only available on Melee and Gunpowder units. So if you are working on a Horse Archer rush, for example, you may want to forego the Woodsman line for your early-game medic (but a chariot healer won’t ever have access to Woodsman, so it’s a bit of a dead-end unit).

    Woodsman provides a bonus to attack and defense in forests/jungles, which is a bit of double-edged sword – Woody units can earn XP in forests, but you don’t want them defending, generally.

    Medic II provides a bonus to healing for units on adjacent tiles, which can sometimes matter if half your stack is in the city you just took, and half is outside, having used up its movement points in attacking.

    I don’t generally have a hard time getting units to 10XP, so I tend to go Woodsman first as a result. If I need a cheap healer fast, I can always build a Chariot in a Barracks/Stable city.
     
  18. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    But isn't it MEDIC II that does the next square healing, not medic III. Medic III just makes the healing better.
    I didn't think you could get III without already having II
    And another reason woody works better because it doesn't require combat 1
     
  19. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Medic I = same tile + 10%
    Medic II = adjacent tiles + 10%
    Medic III = same and adjacent tile + 15% (in that case it is really a PLUS, so +25% overall)

    https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Medic_(Civ4)

    Having an AGG or PRO leader gives direct access to Medic line... also is it not unusual that an early chariot gains quickly Medic II due to some quarrels with barbs. Attaching a GG to this unit opens the possibility to promote Leadership or mobility (besides Medic III). Having 3 tile movement on a medic is awesome, because that unit can always destroy resources while the stack keeps on moving, also it can clear up the last unit, destroy the road AND retreat (when you have been counter-attacked in a newly captured city).
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  20. Lennier

    Lennier Emperor

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    There is one advantage to W III: W II. I promote my starting warrior up the woodsman path so it can scout faster once it gets to W II. If it can survive enough fights with barb archers and warriors to get to W III, I’ve got the start of a super-duper medic. Otherwise I just go up the medic line first.
     

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